virus protection: overrated?

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onelin

Senior member
Dec 11, 2001
874
0
0
good post prosaic,

The thing that hadn't been brought up before your post was: DDoS viruses that let the master control infected PCs to do harm to others. Definitely not something to be overlooked.

While we're on the topic of AV, does anyone know of an automatic scanner that has cpu usage caps?
 
Apr 24, 2003
47
0
0
Agreed, I hope my hasty reply haven't hurt the forum's *flow*.
As I said, your comments are accpeted. I'm here to learn -in the midwhile I'm givin'
opinions and telling my way of handling computers..
 

prosaic

Senior member
Oct 30, 2002
700
0
0
While we're on the topic of AV, does anyone know of an automatic scanner that has cpu usage caps?

I'm not certain that I understand what you're asking, and what mode of operation you're talking about -- background / online scanning, full scan of all drives, web application scanning? Of course many of the examples I can think of allow some fine-tuning within the program that would have an effect up CPU use levels (heuristics levels, extensions and exclusions, etc.), but I don't recall seeing anything designated as a cpu use cap in any of the products I've evaluated, whether corporate or personal level. If I had to restrict AV from taking and holding too much CPU time on a specific machine I'd probably attempt to assign priorities to the threads. However, I think direct interference of that type might not work out well. Most (all?) of this type of software installs pseudo-drivers. Timing tends to be pretty critical on those things, and I've had enough trouble with recalcitrant AV software that I wouldn't be anxious to look for more.

Am I misunderstanding your question?

- prosaic
 

prosaic

Senior member
Oct 30, 2002
700
0
0
Originally posted by: RoseZalutations
Agreed, I hope my hasty reply haven't hurt the forum's *flow*.
As I said, your comments are accpeted. I'm here to learn -in the midwhile I'm givin'
opinions and telling my way of handling computers..

Thank you. I believe that honest discourse on these issues is important, and I don't think anyone should feel compelled to keep silent for fear of rude rebukes from others. I hope you know that such was not my intent. We should feel free to take issue with each others' points, as long as we're not nasty about it, and no one should feel that an argument against his opinion is the same as an argument against himself. We all make errors in judgment, even when we're dealing with subject matter we know very well. I could tell you about some supremely humiliating examples from my own life. (My wife thinks I could write an entire book of humor based upon my gaffes.) Again, thank you for understanding.

- prosaic
 

chilehead

Junior Member
Mar 21, 2003
11
0
0
Originally posted by: onelin0


For the record, I run PC-Cillin. Used to use Norton till that whole Magic Lantern news thing.

I'm curious as to why law enforcement getting the ability to look at your computer before advising you they have the warrant would influence your choice of AntiVirus software. I saw your smiley, but I'm afraid I'm not picking up on the joke there.

In response to all the posters stating that the only antivirus protection they need is common sense, that seems to indicate to me a remarkable lack of common sense. A peice of malware is written expressly for the purpose of getting into as many systems as possible using the least amount of interaction or cooperation from the user of that computer. There are new security holes found in windows (and other OS's) and commonly used software monthly that these malware authors work to exploit and it seems the height of conceit to think that you are able to keep up on the steps you need to undertake to keep them out all by yourself without the assistance of software written to detect and protect against such things. A boast like you have made about common sense seems to be the kind of challenge that one of these dysfunctional people would love to take on just to show you they could do it. The threats that make the biggest headlines are the ones that penetrate a lot of systems and do a lot of damage, but the most successful threats are the ones that you never notice they are there.... they have silent payloads that you don't find out about. If there was one of these things on your system that quietly sent copies of all your online activities to an anonymous remailer it would only be a matter of time before they very likely got all the information they needed to make you the victim of identity theft. In addition to that, they could then make a profit off of you by selling the rest of that info to the good folks over at Spamco to use for their evil purposes. And they could include something like a format command to go off after 6 months or a year, after they have taken you for all the rides they could.

The point is that while common sense will protect you from many of these threats, that alone won't protect you from them all, unless that common sense includes taking realistic precautions that don't pin your system's survival on your ego. Betting the farm on AV software alone is also not very smart... the people at the companies that make AV software usually find out about these threats only after there has been at least one of their customers that has been bit by it. The object is to be one of their customers, but not THAT one.

-Chilehead

 

onelin

Senior member
Dec 11, 2001
874
0
0
prosaic:
For real-time/background scanning. It was actually brought up by a friend, I generally haven't noticed issues. He wants a new AV program to run real-time scanning, but wants to be able to set a limit to the amount of CPU it can use. An out of control real-time scanner can be really annoying. I suppose you could set priorities...but I would think a program should be able to have that kind of setting also...so I was curious.

chilehead:
My smiley indicates nothing but my happiness with the product so far. As for a virus company 'overlooking' government backdoor/keylogs, yes I take serious issue to that. With a company that's supposed to protect my system from all of these things, am I really supposed to trust them if they intentionally let things slip by? Who's to say only the government uses it? And even if it was the case, do I trust that? Once you get into discussing this it's easy to start talking about privacy rights, the Patriot Act, and a whole messload of stuff. Simply put, at the VERY LEAST I disagree with it on sheer principle.
 

Booster

Diamond Member
May 4, 2002
4,380
0
0
virus protection: overrated?

Hardly. I think every PC connected to the 'net should have an AV running. I'm using the NAV 2K2, it's an absolutely terrific program, the best AV, IMO. And yes, it does spot viruses from time to time --- in emails and it 'quarantines' them, detects malicious scripts when browsing strange sites etc.
 

prosaic

Senior member
Oct 30, 2002
700
0
0
For real-time/background scanning. It was actually brought up by a friend, I generally haven't noticed issues. He wants a new AV program to run real-time scanning, but wants to be able to set a limit to the amount of CPU it can use. An out of control real-time scanner can be really annoying. I suppose you could set priorities...but I would think a program should be able to have that kind of setting also...so I was curious.

In that case I know of no such feature as such. I see quite a few messages in which people allude to background scanning slowing their systems to a crawl. In all really capable operating systems the user (well, the admin user, anyway) can assign lower priorities to processes that they believe are taking too much CPU time. However, I don't really think that system crawl induced by background AV scanning arises only from the scanner hungrily grabbing processor time. The key to this observation is that, in the instances I've seen this type of system slowdown, the system was slow to relinquish the processor to other user-initiated processes. That's what really bugs us as users. There's no reason for me to be annoyed if a process that I want to run, whether it be indexing or AV scanner or defragmentation or file transfer, takes nearly 100% of the CPU's time when I'm not trying to use the user interfaces and initiate or use other processes in an interactive manner. It's great that operating systems can be that smart. But they can be thwarted by a faulty AV scanner (or other concurrent process) that doesn't drop the reigns immediately when the user interface is touched. Most AV scanners interact with various system drivers and services in an extremely involved fashion. If a network interface card and your AV scanner, for instance, go toe-to-toe with each other at the driver or services level you are likely to see reduced network traffic throughput, but you are also very likely to see a system that won't respond readily to the GUI while the scanner is running. After all, if the scanner running under SYSTEM is examining a library at the moment the library needs to be called by a system driver or service you've got two (at least) system level processes grabbing for the library. Somebody is going to have to wait. If you try to use the mouse or keyboard at that moment you are probably going to experience a delay in response.

I doubt that setting use caps from within the program (which might not work terribly well in this type of OS anyway) would help prevent this sort of situation from arising. It doesn't really matter as much how hard the scanner is working as it matters where and when it is working -- and, perhaps, what type of work it is doing. (It appears that heuristics scanning requires scanners to linger quite a while longer at each task, and it may increase the likelihood of seeing an inter-process incompatibility behavior.) Furthermore, if any of the drivers or services with which the scanner interacts (or the scanner's pseudo-drivers and services themselves) have compatibility issues with the operating system, alone or in conjunction with each other, you have the makings of a real brouhaha amongst system processes that can make it hard to get any response at all from the user interface. Again, setting thread priority or capping the process' access to the CPU would have little or no effect upon this sort of interaction. When processes that run at kernel level present the system with conflicting needs, those issues have to be resolved before other more mundane tasks can be undertaken. The stability of the system depends upon it.

I have a 500 MHz PIII running concurrent AV scanning with extremely aggressive heuristics features turned on and a software firewall that not only examines every process going in and out of the system but which also examines all cases where one process calls another on the system. That computer is as responsive to the user interface with that stuff running on it as it is without that stuff running on it, and it always initiates new processes at the user's request with alacrity. If I put that same AV / firewall combination on my 2.4 GHz P4 and let the system sit idle for a few minutes I might as well go for coffee the next time I try to use the mouse or keyboard. It's a driver issue. Until I get it figured out I have to resort to using different AV and firewall software for protecting that system. (The two computers, BTW, have the same OS and the same software loaded, just different hardware.)

I do understand why some people throw up their hands and ask why AV scanners are necessary. They can be a real pain in the butt. I have found that NAV has a real proclivity for this sort of issue, and that would explain why some people love it and some people detest it. It works supremely well on some systems and despicably awful on others. Same software, different hardware and software setting.

Now, if you have a dual or multi-processor system, then I suppose you can make use of processor affinity to help get a handle on issues like this. I've never had to bother to do that for an AV scanner on an MP box, though.

- prosaic
 

chilehead

Junior Member
Mar 21, 2003
11
0
0
Originally posted by: onelin0


chilehead:
My smiley indicates nothing but my happiness with the product so far. As for a virus company 'overlooking' government backdoor/keylogs, yes I take serious issue to that. With a company that's supposed to protect my system from all of these things, am I really supposed to trust them if they intentionally let things slip by? Who's to say only the government uses it? And even if it was the case, do I trust that? Once you get into discussing this it's easy to start talking about privacy rights, the Patriot Act, and a whole messload of stuff. Simply put, at the VERY LEAST I disagree with it on sheer principle.

I think that you're right about that, principles and all, but I don't believe that AV companies, and Symantec in particular would go for something like that- it would open a can of worms no one would want to deal with. But if you look in the stuff available in a google search, you have the associated press stating that they will let magic lantern through, and you have public comments by company representatives saying they won't.

By comparison it's like my yelling to the crowd that my neighbor, George, is going to cheat on his wife later this year, and George yelling back that he won't. Who's in a better position to know what George is going to do, me or George? And will the entire crowd keeping their eye on George to see what he will do have any effect on what he does? You bet it will.

And I don't offer these comments without some research to back them up:
http://www.osforge.com/news/00433.html
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/01/0102_020107wirfbi.html

-Chilehead
 

onelin

Senior member
Dec 11, 2001
874
0
0
thanks for the links, chilehead. It's refreshing that they do indeed seem to have not played into the FBI's hands on this one.

In honesty, my purchasing decision wasn't solely based on that or anything. Some friends had it, plus every piece of hardware I've ever BOUGHT comes with PC Cillin, so I tried it. (had to pay $20 to upgrade, but hey...) The main thing I like is the easier, seemingly smaller virus definition updates since I'm on dialup still. (a mere 2 months to cable...)
 

Bleep

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,972
0
0
It is amazing how foolish some people can be when it comes to virus protection, A while back the system administrator or a very large firm had a really bad car wreck and I was asked if I would help them out till he couild return to work, one of my guys calls me about 3:00 am and reported to me that they had found the I Love You labled virus, I went in and we went to every workstation and put a sitcky note on every monitor not to open any mail that contained I Love You, well guess what within 1 hour every computer in one area was infected when confronting the person that opend the mail she said well I read the note but when I saw the message I Love You I wanted to know who it was. I get hundreds of attempts of Klez and Code Red scans every day, good security is a must these days and virus protection is one of them..

Bleep
 

bot2600

Platinum Member
May 18, 2001
2,075
0
76
amen bleep, my IIS logs have almost as many code red hits as it does legitimate web requests, and it has been how long since code red hit and was patched? bet those people think they dont need av software cause they have never had a virus either...
 

Egrimm

Golden Member
Jun 26, 2001
1,420
0
0
I agree on the necessarity of AV programs.
I never open files I'm not sure what is but some years ago I still got a virus that crippled Windows. Until then I had been part of the "I know what I dl and run so I'm fine" crowd. Then I began using NAV (updated once a week) and everything was fine until two months ago when one of my hd's suddenly got wiped totally, the filetable was destroyed. Turned out it was a virus that NAV did not catch which was no surprise to a friend who runs several large networks for the state here. He suggested AntiVir (free for personal use) and it found three vira Norton didn't notice even when up-to-date. So I've been using that since.
 

poMONKey

Senior member
Nov 11, 2002
382
0
0
Originally posted by: Egrimm
... He suggested AntiVir (free for personal use) and it found three vira Norton didn't notice even when up-to-date. So I've been using that since.

THANKS! thats what i wanted to see, a small, good, and free AVP! dling it now!

and thanks to everyone that has totally changed my mind about AVP... i feel as if i should reformat just to be safe
...

im glad i asked ...
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
My uncle's PC was acting up something fierce; after I updated the antivirus software he already had installed it found 3 viruses going to town in his Outlook folder. That's what happens when you don't update antivirus software in more than a year. I had to just format the drive (it was a mess anyway), because the viruses were active, and they'd just keep replicating to other files. I backed up some data, scanned it with a more recent version of Norton, and Fdisked and formatted the drive.
With viruses out now that can be embedded in webpages to automatically run on your system, or auto-executing e-mail viruses, I'd prefer to have good antivirus protection. That way, if you do get infected, the AV software can crush the infection before it replicates across the network, or back out your Internet connection to someone else's PC.
 

spyordie007

Diamond Member
May 28, 2001
6,229
0
0
Originally posted by: poMONKey
Originally posted by: Egrimm
... He suggested AntiVir (free for personal use) and it found three vira Norton didn't notice even when up-to-date. So I've been using that since.

THANKS! thats what i wanted to see, a small, good, and free AVP! dling it now!

and thanks to everyone that has totally changed my mind about AVP... i feel as if i should reformat just to be safe
...

im glad i asked ...
Very nice, they have a command line version as well. If I get a few free min. I think I'm going to play with that one today.

I saw this thread last week but didnt have the time to respond, I'm glad to see that there are others out there who realize that common sense alone is not enough and any computer connected to the internet NEEDS a virus scanner.

-Spy
 

kt

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2000
6,015
1,321
136
Originally posted by: spyordie007
Originally posted by: poMONKey
Originally posted by: Egrimm
... He suggested AntiVir (free for personal use) and it found three vira Norton didn't notice even when up-to-date. So I've been using that since.

THANKS! thats what i wanted to see, a small, good, and free AVP! dling it now!

and thanks to everyone that has totally changed my mind about AVP... i feel as if i should reformat just to be safe
...

im glad i asked ...
Very nice, they have a command line version as well. If I get a few free min. I think I'm going to play with that one today.

I saw this thread last week but didnt have the time to respond, I'm glad to see that there are others out there who realize that common sense alone is not enough and any computer connected to the internet NEEDS a virus scanner.

-Spy

Those who rely on common sense as the only tool guarding against virii are fools with no common sense.
 
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