Vi's home construction blog: Spring 2011 Update - Landscape Torment

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GT1999

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
5,261
1
71
Looks like a nice future place, congrats! Makes me jealous to get out of my apartment.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
I think you only drill if you don't have the real estate for a ground loop that you can bury. Either way I live in the midwest where it can get -20 or 100+ with retarded amounts of humidity. You still need backup systems in case it gets too hot or too cold and you overwhelm the system and you still need a compressor to dehumify the house (which is 80% the comfort and energy cost of AC).

From a cost standpoint I just don't think it's worth it. I don't deny the environmental impact or that it's a nice option in more moderate climates. I'm just not sold on it.

My builder does energy star certified homes. He has a number of 4200 sq/ft homes averaging $150 a month energy bills. I'm only at 3200 sq/ft so I'm hoping to be even less than that.
 

cliftonite

Diamond Member
Jul 15, 2001
6,899
63
91
I think you only drill if you don't have the real estate for a ground loop that you can bury. Either way I live in the midwest where it can get -20 or 100+ with retarded amounts of humidity. You still need backup systems in case it gets too hot or too cold and you overwhelm the system and you still need a compressor to dehumify the house (which is 80% the comfort and energy cost of AC).

From a cost standpoint I just don't think it's worth it. I don't deny the environmental impact or that it's a nice option in more moderate climates. I'm just not sold on it.

My builder does energy star certified homes. He has a number of 4200 sq/ft homes averaging $150 a month energy bills. I'm only at 3200 sq/ft so I'm hoping to be even less than that.

Makes sense.
 

Modular

Diamond Member
Jul 1, 2005
5,027
67
91
I think you only drill if you don't have the real estate for a ground loop that you can bury. Either way I live in the midwest where it can get -20 or 100+ with retarded amounts of humidity. You still need backup systems in case it gets too hot or too cold and you overwhelm the system and you still need a compressor to dehumify the house (which is 80% the comfort and energy cost of AC).

From a cost standpoint I just don't think it's worth it. I don't deny the environmental impact or that it's a nice option in more moderate climates. I'm just not sold on it.

My builder does energy star certified homes. He has a number of 4200 sq/ft homes averaging $150 a month energy bills. I'm only at 3200 sq/ft so I'm hoping to be even less than that.

That's outrageous. In the Mid-west?

I'm in a little house, about 1300 square feet and my gas usage was $100/month over the last 2 months. Granted, it was built in the 60's when insulation was just an afterthought...
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
hat's outrageous. In the Mid-west? I'm in a little house, about 1300 square feet and my gas usage was $100/month over the last 2 months. Granted, it was built in the 60's when insulation was just an afterthought...

My builder has sort of a fan club of people that have had him build. Each month they send in their energy bills and see how low they can go.

Some of them have contests to see how little their temps drop withouth the heat running. One guy did a test on a day that was -13 outside(and a wind chill of -30). He has his thermostat set to 60 in the day and it goes up to 70 in the evenings when people are home. He was home all day and the furnace never kicked in once. It only dropped from 70 degrees to only 63 degrees over the course of over 8 hours. In many homes the furnace would have cycled half a dozen or more times.

There's definitely merit to attentive building techniques and knowing how to seal & insulate a house. I'm sure that there would even be higher gains going with something like geothermal...but the value just isn't there to me.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
That's outrageous. In the Mid-west?

I'm in a little house, about 1300 square feet and my gas usage was $100/month over the last 2 months. Granted, it was built in the 60's when insulation was just an afterthought...

The 60s? That's practically modern. Our last house was built in 1922. If we were so inclined, we could pull out our insulation and read what was happening in Minneapolis on September 12th, 1921. A one and a half story with a 700sqft foundation (so around 1000sqft above ground) and our winter gas bills ran upwards of $400 per month.

Our new place was built in 2002 has 2400sqft above ground (1400sqft foundation) and the gas bill is less than half that of the old place.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
Finally got the road embargo lifted. Have footings poured and block delivered. Probably will have foundation in next week.

http://whlv4w.bay.livefilestore.com...ECa1HWViI9ElgrqxHkHzWtFLrSTkYYgk/IMG_4068.jpg

Yay!

Now I'm torn with some choices. I'm considering dropping in 1" of rigid foam and doing radiant heat in the basement slab. But after considering some other options I'm kind of likeing the idea of still using the foam, but skipping the radiant heat and putting down something like Dricore. It raises the basement temp by 6-8 degrees itself and helps take the edge off the cold concrete. It also doubles as a moisture vent & subfloor. Cost wise it's about a wash. I'm probably looking at $2500 either way I go. But the dricore is a much more "passive" system with nothing really there to fail/puncture/consume energy.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
After doing some more reading and hitting up a lot of contractor and DIY forums I'm reconsidering the radiant heat thing in the basement and going with a "DRIcore" subfloor system.

Pros of DRIcore
1) Easy installation - you can do 300 sq/ft in about 4 hours. Whole basement in long weekend
2) Adds R-value and has a net gain of 6-8 degrees in basement temp
3) Gets rid of that cold concrete feel
4) Is a built in water barrier and self venting system that helps keep your surface floor drier/less musty
5) No worries about leaky water lines, punctured tubing, or manifolds
6) Passive system that requires no additional energy to run
7) I can do just about any type of flooring over the top if it now without worries of moisture, heat loss of Radiant conductance, ect. I want to psuedo-finish the basement at some point and this gives me more flexibility.

Cons
1) Not a replacement for heating, still would need to run forced air heat to the living areas
2) Expensive. Doing my basement would be about the same price as putting in a radiant heating setup
3) I lose an 1" of headroom and a bit more complexity in framing & trimming out

Even if I went the Dricore route I'd still drop a 1" to 1.5" XPS foam under my slab for the added R-value.

Thoughts?
 

BlueWeasel

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
15,940
474
126
Those footings look really thin and narrow for the anticipated loads. Where is the reinforcing for the CMU walls?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I read a crapload about basement flooring. If you put the 1.5" under your baesment slab I would really not bother with the huge cost of infloor heating. But also I would not bother with dricore. You're going to get no appreciable insulation benefit if you have the XPS under the concrete (7.5R for that alone, the small benefit of dricore won't be worth it).

So then all the Dricore is doing is:
- stealing a small bit of vertical space
- offering a channel for water if you have MILD flooding (depending on your particular house location and slab setup this is or isn't a problem. For example my slab has a channel around its entire perimeter and my grading is great, plus gutters buried. I do have a sump pump but it rarely runs; I'm not really worried about flooding
- increasing cost to install
- increasing cost if you have major flooding. the stuff can withstand some water but not a great deal (it is OSB after all and can warp). Obviously if you build your finished basement walls on the dricor you amplify problems further should the dricor need to come up for some reason.

The stuff has uses but in a new house that you can put concrete over XPS with I just don't see the point. I'd not bother; get the slab nicely done, maybe use self-leveling compound on the final finish if you are going to put engineered hardwood down, but otherwise just put the carpet right on the concrete. The concrete is now part of your interior conditioned space.

The idea that dricore offers space to breath is now mitigated. Old homes had concrete right on the dirt or soil. Newer ones have thick plastic underneath, so the concrete is actually not wet from constant moisture coming into it, so breathing is a much smaller concern. But the best, XPS under the concrete, you have it not only very low permeability of moisture with the 1.5" but the concrete is now also going to be close to interior temperatures so I see no benefit to the dricore.

I know I harped a long time ago about exterior insulation, do try and get 2" XPS on the exterior of the wall if possible. Hopefully your builder is acclimated to how to best install that, though. It'll keep you warm, protect the block from freeze/thaw, and also reduce moisture coming into those blocks that subsequently has to be dealt with. Also saves a tiny bit of interior room (but that's a small benefit, really). It's also very easy to do if you haven't yet backfilled. Much harder later.
 
Last edited:

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
Those footings look really thin and narrow for the anticipated loads. Where is the reinforcing for the CMU walls?

I'm not too worried about the footings. My Dad has done block foundation walls for over 30 years now. If he had any issues with the way they were done he would have said something.

As far as reinforcing there will be rod & slushing and durawall mesh grids.

And yes Skoorb, I'll have 2" XPS foam from top to bottom with sealed seams. My builder is a freak about insulating and the thermal envelope around a house.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,907
12,376
126
www.anyf.ca
Cool to see a foundation in progress (well the footings). Though for some reason I would have expected footings to be beveled near the center for a better "seal" when the foundation is poured but guess it's a non issue for blocks.

Is there any advantage to blocks over a poured foundation? I figured they stopped doing block foundations in the 80's or so. I have a block foundation myself and it's in rather good shape (house was built in 1965), so if it's done well it's not really an issue, just did not figure they still did those.

Will they be adding rebar and filling in the blocks? If you leave them hollow you do get a bit of insulation properties but probably best to fill them anyway.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
Will they be adding rebar and filling in the blocks? If you leave them hollow you do get a bit of insulation properties but probably best to fill them anyway.

That's the "rod & slush" part of reinforcing. They also get durawall which is a metal mesh that runs parallel to the wall instead of vertical. As far as advantages? Well a good mason will get a house easily more square than a slam bam poured job will ever do. Other than that it's just a very old but reliable method that many of the longest tenured builders around here are more comfortable with.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Ours is block, completely hollow, unfortunately. Some settlement cracks in our 5 year house but nothing of concern. They are quite verticle and when I did the 3,4,5 to find out a right angle I recall that when I found a stretch 12' out from the corner and 16' from the other (so a huge triangle) it was really within a 1/4", I was extremely impressed, my house is wickedly square.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,217
5,076
146
Cool! Block foundations are very gratifying, from your perspective they go up so fast.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
No, fast is poured walls. 1 day to set forms. 1 day to pour. 1 day to cure. Done.

That's fast. My foundation will take almost 2 weeks at the rate we're going. I was talking to my builder and he was telling me that a couple houses he looked recently at that were poured were almost 4" out of square in some corners almost 2" lower on one end than the other. Have fun framing & flooring that!
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,907
12,376
126
www.anyf.ca
Looking good, and they are in fact doing a nice job, very straight. Guessing there will be tarpaper, weeping tiles and such added once the walls are done.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
No, fast is poured walls. 1 day to set forms. 1 day to pour. 1 day to cure. Done.

That's fast. My foundation will take almost 2 weeks at the rate we're going. I was talking to my builder and he was telling me that a couple houses he looked recently at that were poured were almost 4" out of square in some corners almost 2" lower on one end than the other. Have fun framing & flooring that!

Wow! Hard to imagine that someone would be that careless when setting the forms, or rather before pouring.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,217
5,076
146
No, fast is poured walls. 1 day to set forms. 1 day to pour. 1 day to cure. Done.

That's fast. My foundation will take almost 2 weeks at the rate we're going. I was talking to my builder and he was telling me that a couple houses he looked recently at that were poured were almost 4" out of square in some corners almost 2" lower on one end than the other. Have fun framing & flooring that!
I've set forms and looked at your plan, and nobody gets your footing forms set in a day unless they plan on being that out of whack. it takes time to do it right. I guess I'm used to commercial block masonry, where a crew of 12 hits a job and it gets done in a day or two.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
This was on Tuesday:
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com...DX_af7JumDOqv_A25dWBuGUtnHhf4Rng/IMG_4111.jpg

And here's Wednesday:
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com...131NJxuQg9BVW3H9DEsAp9MSIYVF23Xg/IMG_4121.jpg

I can't get over how far this thing is sticking out of the ground. The foor of my garage is almost 4' off the ground. My builder assures me that I've got enough dirt laying around to backfill it without any problem or having it look goofy. The last place he did was almost 5' out of the ground before back filling. I just can't see it. It just looks weird.

Here's my Skoorb approved shot of the start of foam insulating
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com...5DcGjz94M4kPf-Ku-G1clrcURSRGnihw/IMG_4110.jpg

This weekend I have 50 sheets of 1.5" XPS getting delivered for my under slab insulation. Then next week I have 1500 feet in 3/4" pex coming in and my mesh grid for the radiant heating.
 
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