Vista, HD and non HDCP monitors

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: Janooo
Originally posted by: Matthias99
...
Which would require breaking HDCP (unlikely to be easy).
...


Let me repost what I posted in the other thread.

From technical point of view HDCP is a joke.
It was broken even before it went to production.



From wikipedia about HDCP:

Cryptanalysis

Cryptanalysis researchers demonstrated fatal flaws in HDCP for the first time in 2001, prior to its adoption in any commercial product. Scott Crosby of Carnegie Mellon University authored a paper with Ian Goldberg, Robert Johnson, Dawn Song, and David Wagner called "A Cryptanalysis of the High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection System" [1]. This paper was presented at ACM-CCS8 DRM Workshop on November 5, 2001.

The authors conclude:

"HDCP's linear key exchange is a fundamental weaknesses [sic]. We can:

* Eavesdrop on any data
* Clone any device with only their public key
* Avoid any blacklist on devices
* Create new device keyvectors.
* In aggregate, we can usurp the authority completely."

Around the same time that Scott Crosby and co-authors were writing this paper, noted cryptographer Niels Ferguson independently claimed to have broken the HDCP scheme, but he chose not to publish his research due to legal concerns arising from the Digital Millennium Copyright Act [2].

I looked at their paper (Edit: link to the actual paper: link). It says, in part:

The flaw is that any device whose public key is a linear combination of public keys of other devices will, when assigned a private key that's a similar linear combination of the other devices private keys, successfully authenticate.

I'm unclear on why such keys are guaranteed to exist. They could choose valid public keys such that there is a low probability of them being linear combinations of other valid keys. If the central authority does that, and there are not enough public keys out there to be able to make a susceptible key combination, this attack does not work.

Also:

I show that with the public and private keys from 40 devices and O(40^2) work I can violate the design requirement--I can access the plaintext. Furthermore, with the 40 sets of keys and at most O(2^40) offline work I can usurp the central authority completely.

...

I assume we have enough private keys...

Where is he getting the private keys from? If you sit in the middle and eavesdrop, all you get are two public keys and the shared secret, but you can't compute the private keys from that. I agree that if you have a bunch of private keys, you can attack the system, but there's no easy way to get them to begin with!
 

Janooo

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2005
1,067
13
81
Matthias,

the same wikipedia page:

"By 2005, devices were developed and freely sold in countries without restrictions on copy-protection circumvention. Those usually take the form of filters that have to be installed in the signal path between the movie player or decoder and the TV and strip any HDCP protection out of the video signal, leaving the movie to play on unprotected displays."

Simply, HDCP is useless.


 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: Janooo
Matthias,

the same wikipedia page:

"By 2005, devices were developed and freely sold in countries without restrictions on copy-protection circumvention. Those usually take the form of filters that have to be installed in the signal path between the movie player or decoder and the TV and strip any HDCP protection out of the video signal, leaving the movie to play on unprotected displays."

These will stop working once they are blacklisted. Which should happen at about the same time that commercial HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disks start appearing.
 

Janooo

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2005
1,067
13
81
Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: Janooo
Matthias,

the same wikipedia page:

"By 2005, devices were developed and freely sold in countries without restrictions on copy-protection circumvention. Those usually take the form of filters that have to be installed in the signal path between the movie player or decoder and the TV and strip any HDCP protection out of the video signal, leaving the movie to play on unprotected displays."

These will stop working once they are blacklisted. Which should happen at about the same time that commercial HD-DVD and Blu-Ray disks start appearing.


Do you think they can not change keys on these "filters"?
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: Janooo
Do you think they can not change keys on these "filters"?

...to what? AFAIK, these devices have legit public/private key pairs at this point.

That leads back to my last question -- the attack described in that paper requires a bunch of private keys to begin with, and unless you have some way to generate them, you would need to get them from somewhere to have a way to attack the encryption.
 

Janooo

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2005
1,067
13
81
Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: Janooo
Do you think they can not change keys on these "filters"?

...to what? AFAIK, these devices have legit public/private key pairs at this point.

That leads back to my last question -- the attack described in that paper requires a bunch of private keys to begin with, and unless you have some way to generate them, you would need to get them from somewhere to have a way to attack the encryption.


So this is what they can do:

* Eavesdrop on any data
* Clone any device with only their public key
* Avoid any blacklist on devices
* Create new device keyvectors.
* In aggregate, we can usurp the authority completely.

If there are devices out already. I assume it's true and somebody already did it.
They can avoid blacklisting, they can create own keyvectors.

Your point of blacklisting is moot.


 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: Janooo
Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: Janooo
Do you think they can not change keys on these "filters"?

...to what? AFAIK, these devices have legit public/private key pairs at this point.

That leads back to my last question -- the attack described in that paper requires a bunch of private keys to begin with, and unless you have some way to generate them, you would need to get them from somewhere to have a way to attack the encryption.


So this is what they can do:

* Eavesdrop on any data
* Clone any device with only their public key
* Avoid any blacklist on devices
* Create new device keyvectors.
* In aggregate, we can usurp the authority completely.

*Sigh*...

read my previous response where I talked about the attack they described. They need a bunch of (public, private) keypairs to generate keys or break the protocol, and the keys need to have certain mathematical properties (which are not guaranteed if they pick valid keys carefully).

If there are devices out already. I assume it's true and somebody already did it.

The 'HDCP strippers' that are out there have legit, unique public/private key pairs. I strongly, strongly suspect these keys will become blacklisted when HD-DVD/Blu-Ray movies start getting released, and so they will stop working.

They can avoid blacklisting, they can create own keyvectors.

The attack described above requires certain things that are difficult or impossible to get.

Your point of blacklisting is mute.

I think you mean "moot". And no, it's not, because what that paper describes doing is basically theoretical at this point unless you have access to a lot of key pairs or inside knowledge of the protocol.

 

Janooo

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2005
1,067
13
81
Originally posted by: Matthias99
...
read my previous response where I talked about the attack they described. They need a bunch of (public, private) keypairs to generate keys or break the protocol, and the keys need to have certain mathematical properties (which are not guaranteed if they pick valid keys carefully).
...

I read it.

Here is what Mr. Ferguson said about HDCP:

"I have written a paper that discusses the HDCP system vulnerabilities which I wish to publish at a scientific conference. My research shows how the master key of the system can be recovered if we have access to 50 HDCP display devices and a few desktop computers. Knowledge of the master key allows recovery of all session keys, decryption of any video signal encrypted with HDCP, impersonation of arbitrary devices as well as the creation of new devices that will interoperate with existing HDCP devices."

That's why I believe "the attack" has been done, they have own keys, and they can avoid blacklisting.



 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: Janooo
Originally posted by: Matthias99
...
read my previous response where I talked about the attack they described. They need a bunch of (public, private) keypairs to generate keys or break the protocol, and the keys need to have certain mathematical properties (which are not guaranteed if they pick valid keys carefully).
...

I read it.

Here is what Mr. Ferguson said about HDCP:

"I have written a paper that discusses the HDCP system vulnerabilities which I wish to publish at a scientific conference. My research shows how the master key of the system can be recovered if we have access to 50 HDCP display devices and a few desktop computers. Knowledge of the master key allows recovery of all session keys, decryption of any video signal encrypted with HDCP, impersonation of arbitrary devices as well as the creation of new devices that will interoperate with existing HDCP devices."

That's why I believe "the attack" has been done, they have own keys, and they can avoid blacklisting.

That doesn't answer the questions I raised.

Do you have a link to something more substantial than him saying he can do those things? All I can find is him saying he has some sort of attack that can break the protocol, but he refuses to publish it because of the DMCA (which is a legit concern, and I also think that the provisions about not allowing discussion of encryption techniques are total BS).
 

Janooo

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2005
1,067
13
81
Originally posted by: Matthias99
...
That doesn't answer the questions I raised.

Do you have a link to something more substantial than him saying he can do those things?


Let me put it this way.

On one side you back up HDCP. You say "the filters" are going to be blacklisted and you hint that HDCP is going to work.

On the other side multiple guys say the HDCP has fatal flaws. "The filters" are already out. HDCP is broken.

My question is what's more realistic?
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: Janooo
Originally posted by: Matthias99
...
That doesn't answer the questions I raised.

Do you have a link to something more substantial than him saying he can do those things?

Let me put it this way.

On one side you back up HDCP. You say "the filters" are going to be blacklisted and you hint that HDCP is going to work.

On the other side multiple guys say the HDCP has fatal flaws. "The filters" are already out. HDCP is broken.

My question is what's more realistic?

The existence of "filters" doesn't require that HDCP is trivially breakable. AFAIK, the existing devices that strip HDCP have actual authorized keys, and can be blacklisted. Obviously, if they have 'broken' HDCP, they will be able to circumvent the blacklists, but I have not seen any evidence that this is the case.

One paper claims HDCP has limited flaws (but I think they would be hard to attack based on the information I can find). I have a CS degree, and have studied some cryptography, so I do have some idea what I'm talking about here. I agree with what is in that paper, but it relies on having private keys that would be hard to get in practice, and there are things that can be done within the protocol to mitigate the threat.

Another author claims HDCP has more serious flaws but the author is not publishing his paper. You'll have to excuse me if I'm slightly skeptical without better evidence than that.
 

Janooo

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2005
1,067
13
81
Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: Janooo
Originally posted by: Matthias99
...
That doesn't answer the questions I raised.

Do you have a link to something more substantial than him saying he can do those things?

Let me put it this way.

On one side you back up HDCP. You say "the filters" are going to be blacklisted and you hint that HDCP is going to work.

On the other side multiple guys say the HDCP has fatal flaws. "The filters" are already out. HDCP is broken.

My question is what's more realistic?

The existence of "filters" doesn't require that HDCP is trivially breakable. AFAIK, the existing devices that strip HDCP have actual authorized keys, and can be blacklisted. Obviously, if they have 'broken' HDCP, they will be able to circumvent the blacklists, but I have not seen any evidence that this is the case.

One paper claims HDCP has limited flaws (but I think they would be hard to attack based on the information I can find). I have a CS degree, and have studied some cryptography, so I do have some idea what I'm talking about here. I agree with what is in that paper, but it relies on having private keys that would be hard to get in practice, and there are things that can be done within the protocol to mitigate the threat.

Another author claims HDCP has more serious flaws but the author is not publishing his paper. You'll have to excuse me if I'm slightly skeptical without better evidence than that.

I am just reading this.
Maybe you can help me to understand it.
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: Janooo
I am just reading this.
Maybe you can help me to understand it.

Ah, actual information. Very refreshing.

The first attack they describe is limited, but would allow you (theoretically) to 'copy' encrypted content, or to record it and then play it back. However, it would probably required hacked hardware to allow you to play back the content stream without the encryption chips balking at the stream you are feeding them (since each new stream should have a new PRNG seed). Basically, you'd need a way to bypass the HDCP chip in the display.

The second attack they describe also requires hardware-level control over the system:

...So one would need to build a device with a digital timer which controls both the timing of the connection of the power to the device and the timing of the connection of the devices to each other. So long as the timing of these events is consistent, then the same A_n will generated, and the unecrypted stream is easily attained.

I'm not sure that they are required to use the amount of time that has passed since poweron in order to generate the random number on the transmitter side, or to reset this value to 0 at each powerup. If they used something more, well, 'random', this would fail. Also, you would need to do this for each piece of content you want to strip protection from, and it has to be done in real time (since you are capturing the data stream as it is transmitted). So it's not the most convenient of hacks.

The fourth attack they describe is the same one described in the paper I linked to above. Their third 'attack' discusses using brute force to break the keys -- yes, 56-bit keys can be broken (I'm surprised they didn't use 128-bit keys or more; this was not good foresight on their part), but breaking ~820 of them (at least; this assumes you don't have particularly bad luck in finding keys that are linearly independent) would take a while. A concerted distributed computing effort could probably do this in the multi-year range, though.

What this means, in summary, is that if 40 properly chosen devices each had 40 properly chosen keys cracked, then we can compute the encryption key used for any given connection to within a smaller number of possibilities, and, essentially, the whole system fails to provide any protection. This is not really what one would call robust. We are talking about a system involving millions of devices, but even when randomly selected only an average of 73 or so need be cracked to destroy the effectiveness of the entire system. With proper selection and without the aid of corporate leaks or hardware taps this would require 820 cracks of 56-bit keys, so it would not, for instance, happen the day that the system was released. But it does mean that realistically the system has a maximum effective lifetime. In as little as a few years, likely after everyone had locked into the system, the whole thing would become ineffective.

The addendum here is pretty interesting.

There is another assumption necessary for such, which is that we can feed nonsense to the monitor and that this will not result in the HDCP chip disconnecting. From reading the specification, there is no indication that there is any way for the video hardware to signal the HDCP module, so I feel this assumption justified.

The way this attack works is that we fix a pseudo-random A_n and then feed a set of random KSVs to the receiver and see what it gives back. Then we simulate a set of random 56-bit session keys with the same A_n and see what they predict that the receiver would give back. Then we see if they overlap. Overlaps indicate that we have almost certainly matched a KSV with a session key. To be absolutely certain, for any discovered overlap we can further get as many bits from either source as we want to ensure the match to whatever standard we should desire, or we could give them a different A_n and ensure that they match given that one as well.

You will note that this requires that several things be true. First, it is required that as outlined in the first attack, the receiver does no authentication of the transmitter. Second, it must be the case that the encryption function has no way to know that it is being fed gibberish. Since it's a simple one-time pad algorithm which XOR's the signal with a pseudo-random stream, it cannot. Third, the assumption mentioned in the previous paragraph is required, since we have no actual encrypted signal to feed to it. As a result, what comes out of the HDCP decoder will almost certainly be gibberish to the display circuitry. Fourth, it is needed that the input of the cryptographic function not include the KSV. It does not. Fifth, we require that the receiver (which mind you is a television or other display device) send some output back to the transmitter. It does. However, it only sends out 16 bits every 2 seconds. The purpose of these 16 bits are to provide continuing authentication of the receiver, but they will serve adequately well for our purpose.

In theory, the kind of attack he outlined could work. It has the advantage of being able to work on cracking multiple devices in parallel, which significantly would cut down on the time to break the system. However, I'm not sure you can count on all those assumptions being true, particularly the ones I bolded. It also implicitly counts on being able to manipulate the PRNG of the system.

There are also things that could be done to make some of his computational assumptions wrong -- for instance, deliberately designing the system so that valid keys are unlikely to be linearly independent (he assumes a uniform distribution of valid keys). That would make it so that you have to crack far more than 820 keys to be able to rebuild the entire keyspace. The 'receiver does no authentication of the transmitter' assumption might not be true -- while the spec is described pretty well, they certainly don't divulge everything it does, and some sort of reverse authentication would not surprise me. Hardware can be made relatively tamper-resistant, making it hard to perform attacks that must bypass the encryption chip on the display side.

In short, I still don't see anything that makes breaking this system trivially easy. But it does have weaknesses. I see nothing here that would make me believe it is likely the system has already been compromised.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |