Visual Studio Express 11 is dead to me - Updated 6/8/2012, not so dead now.

[SunnyD]

ArsTechnica article detailing what's up.

The days of a good, free Visual Studio IDE were obviously numbered to begin with... but as of VSx 11, they're gone.

The flavors of Visual Studio Express - C++ and C# - will only allow you to target Metro applications. No Win32, no console, nothing but Metro. This is an obvious business decision by Microsoft to push Metro.

I'm okay with that from a business standpoint. But it gets worse.

Just to make doubly sure that nobody will dare try to produce desktop applications without paying Redmond for the privilege, Microsoft has gone a step further than crippling Visual Studio Express. The Windows SDK for Windows 7 includes a C++ compiler and all the requisite bits and pieces to develop Windows applications. You'd have to do a bit more work to get things set up than you do with Visual Studio, as it's a little barebones, but it's enough. But that won't be the case for Windows 8: the Windows SDK for windows 8 will not include a compiler toolchain at all, lest any sneaky developers try to cheat the system and use it to write desktop apps.

Yup... Microsoft just screwed the pooch in my opinion. I really don't know what else to say other than I'm most definitely NOT happy.

BIG EDIT:
ArsTechnica is reporting that Microsoft has caved and will be providing what appears to be a "unique" SKU - Visual Studio Express 11 for Windows Desktop.

Disaster averted.

Today, I’m happy to announce that we will add Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows Desktop to the Visual Studio 2012 family. This will bring to the Visual Studio Express family significant new capabilities that we’ve made available in Visual Studio 2012 for building great desktop applications.

Adhering to the core principles we’ve set for our Express products, Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows Desktop will provide a simple, end-to-end development experience for developing Windows desktop applications targeted to run on all versions of Windows supported by Visual Studio 2012. With this new Express edition, developers will be able to use C++, C#, or Visual Basic to create Windows desktop and console applications. Developers will also get access to new advances available across the Express family in Visual Studio 2012, such as the latest compilers and programming language tools, integrated unit testing, and the ability for small development teams to collaborate via Team Explorer and TFS Express.

 

[Markbnj]

I agree and it's why I'm focusing more on Python/Django these days. My last native app was a WPF app, and before that a Silverlight app. I don't have to worry about paying for the tools, but long term I think they are greatly damaging their own ecosystem. It actually began a long time ago when Developer Network migrated from being a mostly-free resource to being a multi-thousand-dollar per year subscription.

 

[DaveSimmons]

This, taking away the start button, forcing Flash down the throat of IE users (but only for a fixed set of commercial partners, you can't whilelist new sites).

MS seems to be making every effort it can to have Windows 8 be as beloved as Vista, ME, and Bob.

All they need to do to finish the job is bring back Clippy.

 

[mikeymikec]

I think a lot of people have a cautious attitude with regard to Win8. Surely there's an older version of Visual Studio Express you can just continue using?

 

[Markbnj]

This, taking away the start button, forcing Flash down the throat of IE users (but only for a fixed set of commercial partners, you can't whilelist new sites).

MS seems to be making every effort it can to have Windows 8 be as beloved as Vista, ME, and Bob.

All they need to do to finish the job is bring back Clippy.

Ballmer's been a farking disaster, which should surprise nobody. Gates will ultimately need to pull a Jobs, come back, oust Stevo, and rebuild the company's technical direction.

 

[DaveSimmons]

I think a lot of people have a cautious attitude with regard to Win8. Surely there's an older version of Visual Studio Express you can just continue using?

VS2010 Express will still be usable, but from the article it's missing SSE2 support and C++ 2011 features that are in the VS2011 compiler.

I have MSDN at work so it doesn't affect me, but the article points out that this could harm the Windows support for open-source projects.

 

[SunnyD]

I think a lot of people have a cautious attitude with regard to Win8. Surely there's an older version of Visual Studio Express you can just continue using?

Only until you need a SDK update that isn't supported anymore...

On the flip side, you then need TWO environments and toolchains installed should you desire the ability to try developing for Metro. Given Microsoft's history, two environments that will likely interfere with each other somehow.

I understand the argument though, and you're right in some ways. But in the long run, this is a horrible decision.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Ballmer's been a farking disaster, which should surprise nobody. Gates will ultimately need to pull a Jobs, come back, oust Stevo, and rebuild the company's technical direction.

Yeah, or at least find someone else with real vision.

I've been watching the whole Windows Forms / WPF / Silverlight mess over the years from the sidelines, since our desktop apps are still legacy Win32.

As MS moves from one UI platform to another without settling I've been glad that we're "behind the times".

Now for Metro IE they're apparently going to support Flash but not their own Sliverlight? That's a nice kick in the teeth to every developer who bought into Silverlight.

 

[SunnyD]

Now for Metro IE they're apparently going to support Flash but not their own Sliverlight? That's a nice kick in the teeth to every developer who bought into Silverlight.

Indeed. I think I read today or yesterday that Flash will actually be integrated into the shipped OS no less? REALLY?

 

[mikeymikec]

As MS moves from one UI platform to another without settling I've been glad that we're "behind the times". .

I wanted to say something like this but I couldn't get my words together. I agree completely, Microsoft have flip-flopped on so many technologies, Silverlight being abandoned for example*. However, having said that I don't think many companies can make their mind up about keeping certain things the same or allowing things to mature instead of "having to come up with something 'new'". The current browser wars are a classic example.

* - though probably a bad idea in the first place, unless they released version 1 in 1997.

 

[iCyborg]

I really hate Win 8, which I have to use at work for testing purposes now and then. And the more I hear about it, the more reasons to dislike it. Pushing metro on desktop, the thread about MS planning to ban Chrome and Firefox, now this. It's really sad what MS is doing...
Maybe time to bring back Borland or Dev-C++
For console applications, there's cygwin & g++ too which is a pretty decent alternative.

 

[Markbnj]

Yeah, or at least find someone else with real vision.

I've been watching the whole Windows Forms / WPF / Silverlight mess over the years from the sidelines, since our desktop apps are still legacy Win32.

As MS moves from one UI platform to another without settling I've been glad that we're "behind the times".

Now for Metro IE they're apparently going to support Flash but not their own Sliverlight? That's a nice kick in the teeth to every developer who bought into Silverlight.

They're not really not supporting Silverlight. Basically it would be redundant. You can write Metro apps against the WRT with xaml and your favorite .NET language, so basically that is Silverlight. They're not supporting the Silverlight version of the CLR in Metro, but then they aren't supporting the .NET version of the CLR in Metro either. There's interop between Metro and some useful .NET assemblies, but under the covers it's all WRT.

Not saying I approve of Yet Another Framework, but it's more nuanced than "doesn't support Silverlight."

 

[Pia]

No C++11 if you code for the Windows 8 desktop? Seems like a terrible, terrible decision. People may have been converting from Express to full VS at some kind of pace, but I think this is going to push people away entirely instead of speeding up conversion.

 

[Elixer]

No C++11 if you code for the Windows 8 desktop? Seems like a terrible, terrible decision. People may have been converting from Express to full VS at some kind of pace, but I think this is going to push people away entirely instead of speeding up conversion.

Yeah, I don't see how they will go through with this, having a crippled compiler is one thing, but forcing people to pony up $500 is way too much for everyone except the diehards, and those guys already have MSDN, so what is up with the price ?

 

[BoberFett]

Is Balmer intentionally trying to destroy the company?

 

[Nothinman]

Is Balmer intentionally trying to destroy the company?

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

 

[N4g4rok]

Is Balmer intentionally trying to destroy the company?

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

In other words, you give Balmer too much credit.

 

[dwell]

MS is essentially a carcass at this point. All the best talent was drained from there a long time ago.

 

[Train]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. The normal do-everything VS Express will be back after Win 8 is out. MS just really, really, really, needs Metro apps to be ready upon launch.

If you go back a few years there were separate flavors of VS Express, one for Web only, one for XNA only, one for C#, one for VB.Net, one for C++, it was annoying if you worked in several platforms. But they eventually all merged into one. Mostly it had to do with the various teams not all having their tooling/libraries ready at the same time.

 

[Nothinman]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. The normal do-everything VS Express will be back after Win 8 is out. MS just really, really, really, needs Metro apps to be ready upon launch.

If you go back a few years there were separate flavors of VS Express, one for Web only, one for XNA only, one for C#, one for VB.Net, one for C++, it was annoying if you worked in several platforms. But they eventually all merged into one. Mostly it had to do with the various teams not all having their tooling/libraries ready at the same time.

That might make sense if they didn't explicitly say you need to buy Pro to make desktop apps and that they removed all of the compilers from the SDK. I have a feeling they will eventually do a 180 on this, but not for any technical reasons.

 

[gmaster456]

They are digging their own grave with this. One bad decision after another. Hopefully Windows 9 is worth deploying.

 

[SunnyD]

ArsTechnica is reporting that Microsoft has caved and will be providing what appears to be a "unique" SKU - Visual Studio Express 11 for Windows Desktop.

Disaster averted.

Today, I’m happy to announce that we will add Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows Desktop to the Visual Studio 2012 family. This will bring to the Visual Studio Express family significant new capabilities that we’ve made available in Visual Studio 2012 for building great desktop applications.

Adhering to the core principles we’ve set for our Express products, Visual Studio Express 2012 for Windows Desktop will provide a simple, end-to-end development experience for developing Windows desktop applications targeted to run on all versions of Windows supported by Visual Studio 2012. With this new Express edition, developers will be able to use C++, C#, or Visual Basic to create Windows desktop and console applications. Developers will also get access to new advances available across the Express family in Visual Studio 2012, such as the latest compilers and programming language tools, integrated unit testing, and the ability for small development teams to collaborate via Team Explorer and TFS Express.

 

[Snapster]

I think too much developer pressure to ignore.

I remember I was confused when Microsoft originally announced Windows 8 with metro and they were pushing JS, HTML, XAML and not a word on .Net or C++.