VR-Zone article on Intel Haswell server CPUs - DDR4 and higher TDPs

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
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http://vr-zone.com/articles/intel-haswell-ep-brings-ddr4-to-eat-up-to-160w-190-amps/16141.html

Given the increasing competition in the Big Data space between a CPU and a GPU, we were not surprised to hear that Intel decided to shift away from the traditional model which meant 65W, 95W and 130W. Upon landing in Taipei, while yours truly did check in at The Westin Taipei around 10PM, the night wasn't close to ending as I was invited for a midnight tour in one of numerous R&D offices. For those that follow me on Foursquare, no - I did not check in.

As Nova elaborated in his exhaustive and insightful article with Ivy Bridge-EP in 2013, Intel will bring out higher TDP-draw processors, and that trend is set to continue with up to 16-core Haswell-EP monster which targets the introduction in the second half of 2014. The main competitor for Haswell-EP will not be AMD with their unannounced successor of the yet unannounced Abu Dhabi Server CPU (confused yet?), it will be a combination of NVIDIA Maxwell GPU paired with an Project Denver-based Server CPU.

The processor will be available at different clock speeds and with the different amount of enabled CPU cores, but the main power characteristics are 120W, 135W, 145W and 160W. There will not be any sub-100W TDP parts, as the company was told that it has to compete against NVIDIA Tesla GPUs, which all come in 225 and 300W range. With Tesla K10 (Dual-GK104, server version of GTX 690 with ECC and 8GB of GDDR5 memory) coming at 375W, and GK110-based K20 drawing 300W with 12GB of GDDR5 memory, it is obvious what Haswell-EP has to do.

Power draw characteristics require dedicated four and five rail solutions to feed the CPU. We were shown a prototype of the platform which draws less than 100 Amps in typical working conditions, with Turbo Mode jacking that up to 120 Amps. What will make overclockers wet is the fact that Haswell silicon is designed to accept draws of up to 190 Amps on AIR, meaning we might get another overclocking king if its able to sustain 190A when you freeze it and increase the voltage to let's say, 1.575V i.e. 300W.

As far as the platform goes, The 2013/14 server and workstation platform is called Grantley. It will support DDR3 or DDR4, with extensive memory options. We were a bit intrigued by the amount of DIMMs/SO-DIMMs which Intel supports with the single 72-bit (64+8) lane (times four and six), bringing this author back into 1999 and the 8-channel RDRAM DEC Alpha… funny to see history repeating itself with the amount of supported DIMMs per channel.

However, don't expect to see any of this before the IDF Fall 2013 (behind the closed doors) or CeBIT 2014 for public appearance. If the schedule slips, see you on Computex Taipei 2014.

For desktops: http://vr-zone.com/articles/high-en...intel-to-trade-tdp-for-performance/16047.html
 
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Vesku

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2005
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2014

Wonder if Haswell will have gpu compute units that can interpret x86 instructions, seems their research on Larrabee and it's derivatives combined with some Transmeta like software would be interesting.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
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Theo article. So most likely 99% bogus

Both Theos and Nebojsa articles seems to miss plain keyconcept of Haswell. Seems they asked the magic 8ball or a random forum again

And their TDP figures seems to be te faulty max amps*max volt statements. Go look in Intels datasheets for Sandy or Ivy and you would say thats not TDP.

Another note is the VRM movies ondie. So on the desktop we could see an increase from 77 to 95W TDP again. But still use less power overall. But again, it might still be keept at 77W TDP

DDR4 prices and production at the time will also dictate Haswells server support of DDR4.
 
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Edrick

Golden Member
Feb 18, 2010
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DDR4 is not going to happen for Haswell. Period.

If anyone remembers the VR-Zone article about SB-E back in early 2011 will know you can't believe what they say.

And this whole thing about Haswell alone competing with Nvidia GPU+CPU is just bogus. Anything to get readers I suppose. Intel's Knights Ferry and Knights Landing (along with Haswell-EP) will compete with Maxwell and Project Denver.
 
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Olikan

Platinum Member
Sep 23, 2011
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lol, people forget that going from ddr2 to ddr3 were almost useless

ddr4.....0,1% cpu speed? WOAH
 

bronxzv

Senior member
Jun 13, 2011
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lol, people forget that going from ddr2 to ddr3 were almost useless

ddr4.....0,1% cpu speed? WOAH

Hynix claims 40% lower power, 35% lower standby current, better reliability (CRC) and higher density vs DDR3, what's not to like?
 

Edrick

Golden Member
Feb 18, 2010
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DDR4 also anticipates a change in topology – it discards dual, triple and quad channel approaches in favor of point-to-point where each channel in the memory controller is connected to a single module.

It will support DDR3 or DDR4, with extensive memory options. We were a bit intrigued by the amount of DIMMs/SO-DIMMs which Intel supports with the single 72-bit (64+8) lane (times four and six), bringing this author back into 1999 and the 8-channel RDRAM DEC Alpha… funny to see history repeating itself with the amount of supported DIMMs per channel.

Doesn't sound like DDR4 to me.
 

Olikan

Platinum Member
Sep 23, 2011
2,023
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Hynix claims 40% lower power, 35% lower standby current, better reliability (CRC) and higher density vs DDR3, what's not to like?

...a huge 0,6 volts less

don't get me wrong... it's nice for laptops, but people here seems to be very hyped
 

bronxzv

Senior member
Jun 13, 2011
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Doesn't sound like DDR4 to me.

mmm in other words you use a source that you claim isn't reliable to prove your point that Haswell-EX will not support DDR4

from the IDF Spring memory presentation [1], the timing is all right for DDR4 in Haswell-EX with 23% market share for DDR4 in 2014 (iSuppli forecast, slide 7), see also from slide 33 "DDR4 as a coming new solution for server"

also in the Exascale computing presentation [2], slide 11 mention DDR 4 around 2014 in the bandwidth trend graph


[1]: BJ12_SPCS001_103_ENGf.pdf
[2]: BJ12_ACAS003_100_ENGf.pdf
both downloadable from intel.com/go/idfsessionsBJ
 

kernelc

Member
Aug 4, 2011
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It sound a little strange to me that Haswell-EP will have 16 cores.

I expect the 16 core version to be relegated to Haswell-EX market, not to the lower EP.

Well, time will tell.

Regards.
 

Edrick

Golden Member
Feb 18, 2010
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mmm in other words you use a source that you claim isn't reliable to prove your point that Haswell-EX will not support DDR4

Only pointing out that the source contradicts itself. So not a good source either way

There is no reason why Intel would use DDR4 on Haswell-EX. The EX line is built for big iron stability, and introducing a new technology (DDR4) to that line without first going through the lower end lines, seems out of place IMHO. Also, the small power saving features you mention are of no concern for systems built around EX.
 

Edrick

Golden Member
Feb 18, 2010
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sure, Intel lets people advertise their stuff at IDF even if it doesn't match their own roadmap

It is on their roadmap for sure, the problem is that 2014 is still a moving target at this point. If Haswell-EX is delayed until Q4 2014, then maybe there is a chance of DDR4 support. Q1/Q2 2014 I find very unlikely.

Edit: the article mentioned EP (not EX), not sure why the thread turned EX. So I take back my above post about "Big Iron EX". But that means EP should be Q1 2014 and less likely to support DDR4.
 
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bronxzv

Senior member
Jun 13, 2011
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Also, the small power saving features you mention are of no concern for systems built around EX.

I'll say 40% less power is a concern for datacenters with TB of RAM for in-memory databases, etc. but maybe it's just me
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
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If this information is true, I cannot WAIT for Haswell-E. Again, if true, this will probably be the most 'different' we have ever seen between a consumer CPU and 'enthusiast' CPU. Low TDP + IGP vs. high TDP no IGP server-type CPU. Could not be any happier!
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
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91
I'll say 40% less power is a concern for datacenters with TB of RAM for in-memory databases, etc. but maybe it's just me

Yes, plus there aren't a lot of RAM that you can get that is 1.5v and hits higher than 1866mhz. DDR4 will start at this frequency, ramp-up to higher speeds (as necessary) and likely often even-lower voltage parts for laptops and SFF builds.
 

bronxzv

Senior member
Jun 13, 2011
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If Haswell-EX is delayed until Q4 2014
Q4 2014 will be not a delay for Haswell-EX AFAIK

Edit: the article mentioned EP (not EX), not sure why the thread turned EX.
Because you wrote "DDR4 is not going to happen for Haswell. Period." when there is a lot of talk about DDR4 for Haswell-EX since around IDF Spring, it looked much like if you ignored that it is more or less considered a given already so I mentioned it
 
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BenchPress

Senior member
Nov 8, 2011
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Wonder if Haswell will have gpu compute units that can interpret x86 instructions, seems their research on Larrabee and it's derivatives combined with some Transmeta like software would be interesting.
Why would you need that when you already have AVX2 which is basically GPU capabilities within each CPU core? It's much easier to develop for a homogeneous architecture, and it doesn't suffer from bandwidth and latency issues like heterogeneous GPGPU does.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,452
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Well, Intel will really be pushing AVX2 for compute, with Haswell, so a 16-core doesn't surprise me all that much.

I am curious, has a nominal DDR4 JEDEC voltage been determined yet? Since DDR3 is 1.5v, but we've seen anywhere from 1.25 to 1.7, maybe even 1.8.
 

Anarchist420

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Feb 13, 2010
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Why would you need that when you already have AVX2 which is basically GPU capabilities within each CPU core? It's much easier to develop for a homogeneous architecture, and it doesn't suffer from bandwidth and latency issues like heterogeneous GPGPU does.
I agree, but I won't be surprised if people keep on thinking that an iGPU is better than more AVX2 performance.
 

bronxzv

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Jun 13, 2011
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