W2K or WXP? Seriously...

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erikistired

Diamond Member
Sep 27, 2000
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Originally posted by: bsobel
xp home. i got out of that stuff larry posted that i should disable it regardless of OS, but i'm reading while juggling a 2 year old so i might have missed something.

Those articles are about 2k/NT and the 9x platform, XP and above fully supports HT and on those OSs you should leave it on.

Bill

ah danke. is there a difference between home and pro when it comes to ht support?
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
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ah danke. is there a difference between home and pro when it comes to ht support?

No, the only thing close is the SMP support. Not that will affect you in your config (Home only supports one physical CPU with or without HT, while Pro supports two with or withouth HT).

Bill
 

kylef

Golden Member
Jan 25, 2000
1,430
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Sorry guys, I've been very busy this past week so I haven't had a chance to reply until now.

VirtualLarry: I am absolutely not just spouting FUD regarding HT support in Win2k vs. XP. However, just to be sure, I'm going to check my sources again. If worst comes to worst, I'll look it up myself.

But suffice it to say that the Idle Loop does not simply execute HLT (especially not on MP systems), so if the Sysinternals guys actually said that, they're just plain wrong.
 

lowelo7798

Member
Aug 12, 2002
55
0
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Originally posted by: OMG1Penguin
Poll~

I use W2k after using each for about a year.
It seems more "to the point". Then again, that's why people like XP (more "fun").

Shrug

Coke or Pepsi?

I pick pepsi, taste much better...!

 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
Originally posted by: kylef
Sorry guys, I've been very busy this past week so I haven't had a chance to reply until now.

VirtualLarry: I am absolutely not just spouting FUD regarding HT support in Win2k vs. XP. However, just to be sure, I'm going to check my sources again. If worst comes to worst, I'll look it up myself.

But suffice it to say that the Idle Loop does not simply execute HLT (especially not on MP systems), so if the Sysinternals guys actually said that, they're just plain wrong.

Well, like I said, they did say the MPS Uniprocessor x86 HAL, I don't have experience with the MP HAL. It's possible that the idle loop is different for the MP HAL, but I would be surprised if it was just sitting in a spin-loop, as that doesn't allow the CPU's internal partial-shutdown to save power to take effect, which HALT does allow. I trust the SysInternals guys pretty well, they seem to know as much or more than MS in some particular areas (aside from the OS designers themselves).

I suppose I could disassemble the code for the scheduler and take a look myself, but I don't have an SMP system to test on. I don't suppose that you have publically-available source-code for the HAL's scheduler, do you?

(As an aside, I once had a book, that showed the VMS kernel's scheduler source code. It was really nice, actually. The book talked about the way that the OS and the hardware were developed together, and the CPU implemented two atomic list-manipulation opcodes specifically for the scheduler, they were found no-where else in the OS source code. It was a neat study on a sucessful hardware/software co-design effort by DEC. Unfortunately, that book seems to have disappeared, I don't know if it was because of the friend that I lent it to or myself.)
 

kylef

Golden Member
Jan 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
Well, like I said, they did say the MPS Uniprocessor x86 HAL, I don't have experience with the MP HAL. It's possible that the idle loop is different for the MP HAL, but I would be surprised if it was just sitting in a spin-loop,
I apologize, I didn't make myself very clear before: the idle loop does more than simply HLT, but I didn't mean to imply that it simply "spins" in Win2k without halting. Win2k *does* issue a HLT eventually.

The "spinning" behavior to which I was referring is a result of the system timer firing, sending an interrupt that starts the idle loop all over again (unless another thread has been scheduled). This is precisely the type of loop that the Intel article was warning against: the spinning code steals cycles from the running threads. The XP Idle Loop has been specifically rewritten to mitigate this spin contention by issuing a HLT whenever possible.

If the SysInternals guys said that the Idle loop merely executes a HLT instruction, they are mistaken (even in the uniprocessor case). There is a good deal of housekeeping work that is performed in the Idle Loop too.

The idle loop in Win2k executes an algorithm something like the following:
1) obtain a mutex for the scheduling data structure
2) check to see if anything is ready to run
3) check to see if there are any DPCs to run
4) HLT
5) (system timer interrupt fires)
6) goto 1

Note that I have not personally examined the MPS HAL assembly code for XP and Win2k directly to see what exact changes they were able to make to execute the HLT more frequently in XP than in Win2k.

I did, however, find a publicly available direct reference to what I'm describing: You can refer to Section 5.2 of Windows Support for Hyper-threading Technology.

You can also Google for "Windows 2000 hyper-threading halt" which seems to turn up a few other links.

I trust the SysInternals guys pretty well, they seem to know as much or more than MS in some particular areas (aside from the OS designers themselves).
MS is a huge company, so it is no coincidence that you will encounter people who don't know much about the NT kernel. But trust me, most people in the Windows division know what they're talking about.

I suppose I could disassemble the code for the scheduler and take a look myself, but I don't have an SMP system to test on. I don't suppose that you have publically-available source-code for the HAL's scheduler, do you?

I do have full Windows source code access, but I obviously can't provide any confidential information (including algorithms or instructions) or make direct comments about the actual source code.
 

Canterwood

Golden Member
May 25, 2003
1,138
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Kylef, how difficult would it be for MS to add proper Hyper threading support to Win2K?

I know its never gonna happen, but I'm curious if its just due to marketing (for XP) that they haven't done so in a service pack/update.
 

kylef

Golden Member
Jan 25, 2000
1,430
0
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Originally posted by: Canterwood
Kylef, how difficult would it be for MS to add proper Hyper threading support to Win2K?

I know its never gonna happen, but I'm curious if its just due to marketing (for XP) that they haven't done so in a service pack/update.
It's definitely not impossible, but in general (with perhaps one exception in the NT4 days), Microsoft has never released new kernel features in service packs. It would really just mean replacing NTOSKRNL.EXE with a different version, and of course it would require a reboot. My guess is that rewriting the idle loop would not be a sweeping change. But in terms of patch management, such a change would be trivial compared to something like SP2.

Basically, MS feels that new kernel features are a good reason to actually upgrade. Server 2003, for instance, has LOTS of MP kernel enhancements that would never go downlevel to 2000 Advanced Server. Example: per-processor scheduling queues which effectively prevent lock contention in the scheduler.

The rationale is, your previous version of Windows isn't broken, it's just not as optimized as the new version.
 

kylef

Golden Member
Jan 25, 2000
1,430
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Does AT have a Hyper-Threading FAQ?

If so, we should probably add this info (and the links) to that FAQ.
 

jose

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 1999
2,076
0
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I use both, but prefer win2ksp4. I've had some strange issues w/ XP on my scsi systems. Also I hate the Instant Messenger feature... I remove it but later it comes back after updating patches to the os..

I wonder how MS will deal w/ dual core processors next year, will a patch be need ? What about licensing ?


kylef:

So if I take "NTOSKRNL.EXE" from a Winxp box &amp; place it in a win2k box, the win2k
box will have HT ?? After a reboot ??


Regards,
Jose
 

Canterwood

Golden Member
May 25, 2003
1,138
0
0
Originally posted by: jose
So if I take "NTOSKRNL.EXE" from a Winxp box &amp; place it in a win2k box, the win2k
box will have HT ?? After a reboot ??
I doubt very much that it would be that simple.
 

Derango

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2002
3,113
1
0
Originally posted by: jose

So if I take "NTOSKRNL.EXE" from a Winxp box &amp; place it in a win2k box, the win2k
box will have HT ?? After a reboot ??


Regards,
Jose

I don't work at microsoft, but I'm pretty sure if you do that all you'll have after a reboot is a non working system.
 

kylef

Golden Member
Jan 25, 2000
1,430
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Originally posted by: Derango
I don't work at microsoft, but I'm pretty sure if you do that all you'll have after a reboot is a non working system.

Obviously, you are correct.

You cannot boot an XP system with a 2k kernel, or vice-versa. When I said "replacing ntoskrnl.exe with a different version" I meant a version of the same kernel with the idle loop code changed (i.e., by Microsoft).
 

jose

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 1999
2,076
0
0
Too bad, HT is the only thing I like about XP ..

I do have several spare hd's lying around, is there any hack for win2k &amp; HT ??

Regards,
Jose
 

Canterwood

Golden Member
May 25, 2003
1,138
0
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One of my main gripes with XP was the bloat, but I've been playing around with a program recently on a testbed at work.

It lets you remove all the crap you dont want from XP and gives you the power to choose whats installed in the OS.

I'm very impressed with it so far, and have made a stable streamlined ISO of XP with SP2 which is less than a Gig when installed.

Sweet.
 

jose

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 1999
2,076
0
0
Canterwood, What prog are you using to do this ?

kylef, Have you seen the thread in Cpu's &amp; Proc about A64 &amp; multitasking ? What's you take on that discussion ?

Regards,
Jose
 
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