Wait... we can 'lose' a plane in this day and age?

[spidey07]

I understand the OP but it is all about satellite coverage. If you could put up satellites to cover those parts then a "here's where I am" system could be put into place. But then again you have to take into account the plance is moving pretty fast just to maintain lift. A single minute of lost contact would cover a humongous search area. IMHO to do what he's asking would be a massive undertaking and who is going to pay for it? Not to mention weather being a significant factor in satellite communications that you cannot control.

I mean didn't anybody watch the movie "Castaway"?

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Homerboy
how well do those beacons work until 2 mile of water?

ding ding ding ding!

Originally posted by: Clair de Lune

Originally posted by: Crusty
GPS is one way. The plane knows where it is but the satellites don't.

And this is such an insurmountable technological obstacle....

They already do this with animal tracking devices. The data is uploaded to satellite every so many hours.

Originally posted by: coolVariable
I understand that the transponder and all the other wonderful gizmos on that plane stopped when (if) it got struck by lightning and that somehow knocked out all 4 independent electrical systems (3 backup systems!!!).
But WTF! The transponder worked for 4 hours before. They don't keep track where a @#$% plane is? They should have at least a "last know location" 5 minutes or 10 minutes before this happened.

Now they are looking near the coast of LatAm but the guy in charge already said that the flight might actually have gone down close to Africa. WTF! That is a little ways off.

Okay, let's give them a "last known location" 10 minutes before the actual crash. Or was it 5 minutes? Or 1 minute? 10 minutes of uncertainty, at 600mph, is a huge area. Let's narrow it down & assume that its course didn't change by more than 45 degrees. Under that assumption, 600mph, up to 10 minutes, that leaves an area of 7853 square miles.
For the sake of reference, that's 90% the size of the entire state of New Jersey.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: spidey07
I understand the OP but it is all about satellite coverage. If you could put up satellites to cover those parts then a "here's where I am" system could be put into place. But then again you have to take into account the plance is moving pretty fast just to maintain lift. A single minute of lost contact would cover a humongous search area. IMHO to do what he's asking would be a massive undertaking and who is going to pay for it? Not to mention weather being a significant factor in satellite communications that you cannot control.

I mean didn't anybody watch the movie "Castaway"?

So you're basing all this analysis on a Tom Hanks movie you happened to watch?

 

[Scouzer]

Originally posted by: coolVariable
I understand that the transponder and all the other wonderful gizmos on that plane stopped when (if) it got struck by lightning and that somehow knocked out all 4 independent electrical systems (3 backup systems!!!).
But WTF! The transponder worked for 4 hours before. They don't keep track where a @#$% plane is? They should have at least a "last know location" 5 minutes or 10 minutes before this happened.

Now they are looking near the coast of LatAm but the guy in charge already said that the flight might actually have gone down close to Africa. WTF! That is a little ways off.

This is just the way it works in the air traffic system. For transatlantic (or most transocean for that matter) RADAR coverage doesn't exist for the majority of the route. Guess what? Where there's no RADAR there's likely no radio coverage with air traffic control either.

In normal circumstances the pilots would have tried HF radio or relaying via another plane, but clearly this plane encountered something urgent and terrible not allowing them to relay a distress call.

These planes do have distress beacons of varying kinds, but let's imagine a scenario:

1) The ocean is massive.
2) What if it sank in 5km deep ocean-- how far do you think the radio signal would travel above the surface? Not far.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
I heard it this morning and heard it in depth on NPR just now.

They're combing the ocean to locate the plane right now and they say it's looking grim. The whole time I was really confused. This is 2009 people. How can we lose a 300-passenger transatlantic plane????

On the mult-million dollar plane, they can't bother to equip one, two or how about three independently operated GPS? They cost like what, a fraction of the whole plane?

I think it's mind boggling that we can't locate a plane in this day and age.

It always amazes me when people really think this way. The atlantic ocean is HUGE. The oceans are huge. We lose at least one HUGE commercial shipping per month on the oceans.

As for this flight, you had a transatlantic flight that had an unknown caused electrical failure while in a storm. If you had a catestrophic failure of your electrical system and even the pilots didn't have time to radio their situation, what technology do you think we have that would pinpoint the crash wrekage hours later?

besides, at what depth does the signal start to degrade and finally fail?

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Clair de Lune

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
I heard it this morning and heard it in depth on NPR just now.

They're combing the ocean to locate the plane right now and they say it's looking grim. The whole time I was really confused. This is 2009 people. How can we lose a 300-passenger transatlantic plane????

On the mult-million dollar plane, they can't bother to equip one, two or how about three independently operated GPS? They cost like what, a fraction of the whole plane?

I think it's mind boggling that we can't locate a plane in this day and age.

It always amazes me when people really think this way. The atlantic ocean is HUGE. The oceans are huge. We lose at least one HUGE commercial shipping per month on the oceans.

As for this flight, you had a transatlantic flight that had an unknown caused electrical failure while in a storm. If you had a catestrophic failure of your electrical system and even the pilots didn't have time to radio their situation, what technology do you think we have that would pinpoint the crash wrekage hours later?

They have indepedently operating blackbox. Why can't they have an independently operating GPS/transponder/plane-locator?

How many planes have we lost in the middle of the ocean in recent history? There's always someone who thinks we need to go through extraordinary efforts and expense for what amounts to an isolated incident. In addition, if you've been paying any attention to the news, the GPS satellite system is overdue for failure based on the the life cycle they were designed for. We don't have the money to replace them, but we should not only replace them but enhance them with once in a lifetime capabilities?

Is it a tragedy - yes. Shit happens. We can't prevent every bad thing from happening.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: boomerangIn addition, if you've been paying any attention to the news, the GPS satellite system is overdue for failure based on the the life cycle they were designed for. We don't have the money to replace them, but we should not only replace them but enhance them with once in a lifetime capabilities?

The whole "GPS system failure" story is a bunch of non-sense.

 

[Deleted member 4644]

Basically Radars have a pretty limited range. Unless there was a warship in the area, that plane was not being painted by an active radar, and no one knew where it was.

However, I have wondered how hard it would be to set up a few satellites and have them monitor the plane's transponder.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Hacp


So you're basing all this analysis on a Tom Hanks movie you happened to watch?

If you must know I've been working in communication for 15+ year. Just thought it would be a funny reference. Although I admit I'm no expert in satellite comm.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: pontifex
besides, at what depth does the signal start to degrade and finally fail?

So dense they have to use SONAR instead of RF.

 

[jinduy]

what if the plane didn't go into the ocean?

 

[Soccerman06]

Freakin aliens man

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: guyver01
so... search button isn't working?

But the plane could report it's coordinates via satellite internet connection (some planes already have internet access via satellite).

 

[AccruedExpenditure]

(conspiracy theorist) It's clear the plane was hijacked then shot down by NATO (/conspiracy theorist)

 

[brxndxn]

Hearing it on these forums, I'm surprised we didn't 'loose' a plane.

 

[tefleming]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

For the sake of reference, that's 90% the size of the entire state of New Jersey.

Yeah, but people WANT to find this...

I'm hoping they're on the Island, with Jack, Kate, Jacob and the Man in Black

 

[Shadow Conception]

Originally posted by: brxndxn
Hearing it on these forums, I'm surprised we didn't 'loose' a plane.

your talking out of you're ass

 

[brxndxn]

Originally posted by: Shadow Conception

Originally posted by: brxndxn
Hearing it on these forums, I'm surprised we didn't 'loose' a plane.

your talking out of you're ass

win

 

[Lean L]

Don't the pilots have aviation watches that send distress signals?

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: iamanidiot
Don't the pilots have aviation watches that send distress signals?

<reads post>
<reads name of poster>

How appropriate!

 

[tyler811]

They could never find find that Oceanic 815 from what I hear.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Lol yeah I really don't get how they can lose a plane.

I'm sure there must be some kind of "last trasmitted position" somewhere so if it crashed it should be around that spot. If the it's just that the avionics totally crapped out I'm sure the pilot had time to talk to the air traffic controllers.

 

[lupi]

you remember that thing about the earth being almost 3/4 water....

 

[compuwiz1]

Originally posted by: iamanidiot
Don't the pilots have aviation watches that send distress signals?

That was an airline flight, not a James Bond movie.

Originally posted by: RedSquirrel
Lol yeah I really don't get how they can lose a plane.

I'm sure there must be some kind of "last trasmitted position" somewhere so if it crashed it should be around that spot. If the it's just that the avionics totally crapped out I'm sure the pilot had time to talk to the air traffic controllers.

It doesn't seem like the pilot did any talking or we would know more. From 35000 feet to sea level, you'd think there would have been time to do some communication, unless there were no working systems available, which seems to be indicated here.

 

[dsity]

Originally posted by: Savij

Originally posted by: coolVariable
I understand that the transponder and all the other wonderful gizmos on that plane stopped when (if) it got struck by lightning and that somehow knocked out all 4 independent electrical systems (3 backup systems!!!).
But WTF! The transponder worked for 4 hours before. They don't keep track where a @#$% plane is? They should have at least a "last know location" 5 minutes or 10 minutes before this happened.

Now they are looking near the coast of LatAm but the guy in charge already said that the flight might actually have gone down close to Africa. WTF! That is a little ways off.

So the plane fell straight down as soon as the electronics went out? It could have glided 50 or 60 miles if it lost engines at the same time. It may have just lost electronics and been flying blind in which case it would have 8 - 10 hours of flying blind. It might have lost just one engine along with electronics so it would be able to go for 6 hours of flying blind. Maybe it lost some of its controls so the pilots struggled for a few hours but couldn't keep it in the air. Maybe it broke up while in the air and scattered debris over 50 square miles or open ocean and most of the largest pieces sank within minutes.

UFO