Walmart:11-21-06 Wal-Mart slashes food prices in half ahead of Thanksgiving

[Crimson]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Crimson
Unions are the way to go for the lazy and worthless workers.

There you go Working Class Americans, what the NeoCons really think of you.




At least are being Honest about it now, interesting twist as they get more and more desperate with T-minus 90 days till losing their Fearless Liar.

Are you saying because I am not in a union that I am not a 'Working Class American'? Because I don't have a union protecting my job what I do is somehow less than what they do? I busted my ass to get where I am, and now apparently I am not 'Working Class' according to Dave.

Apparently thats what the libs think, either you are union, or you are the 'rich'.

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I was a member of the Carpenters Union and on one job site the Job Steward hit himself in the face with a Chainsaw. After a month of recuperation he went back to the job site demanding his job. The Foreman told him to take a hike because he said he was dangerous to work around. He filed a complaint to the Union and the Union sided with the Foreman. I've seen many a Union Carpenter sent packing because they didn't do his job well, was to slow, etc and I never witnessed the Union force the company to rehire them.

I think a lot of it depends on the particular union in question. When I was putting up fences the union really didnt do much, but then again union dues were cheap, so I didnt care much. It all ran like a non-union job, actually (ie, no union politics, nobody even mentioned the union more than once a month because, like I said, they didnt do much, and no one really had a problem with the owner). Our wages were slightly higher than non-union shops, but after deducting for dues, it was pretty much even.

OTOH, in my current job, there was a woman working here that it took forever and a couple days to fire, thanks to the union. She left her password file (you arent supposed to write them down, anyway) on a totally unsecured PC in a shared folder with no permissions set, and named it "Passwords.doc". We're talking root and admin passwords for the Solaris and Windows machines, plus her dial-up account and password. This was after proving herself totally incompetent in three separate jobs (she was transferred rather than fired at the union's insistance), lying on her resume, and having a truly craptastic attendance record. Oh, yeah, the reason she was even in a job that would require admin access was because the union insisted that she could be transferred only to a job with the same pay rate and a similar level responsibility associated with it.

So my point is that there are good unions and bad unions. IMO, Good unions get their employees the highest wages they can without killing the company(s) that employ them, and protect workers from being fired for BS reasons. Bad unions demand unreasonable raises year after year or they strike, and stop employers from firing bad employees until a three mile high stack of paperwork and documentation.

 

[Spencer278]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: kaizersose
here are my experiences with unions:

1. at my company, a union machinist gets into an argument with his supervisor and ends up punching him in the face. supervisor fires him then and there. a year later, the union wins a wrongful termination suit for him because the proper paperwork wasnt filed before he was fired. he gets a year of back pay plus average overtime and his job back.

2. a friend of mine runs an HVAC engineering company. in order to work on govt. or related jobs, workers must be paid union wages even if they arent unionized. so if all these companies are bidding on jobs and they all pay their workers the same, how does the low bidder do it? by using cheap materials. now you know why public school facilities are in such bad shape. this same friend won a blackmail lawsuit against the local union because they threatened him with laor violations if he didnt unionize.

3. i live in the SF bay area where they are installing a new span on the bay bridge. originally, they were going to use some japanese steel in the construction but the workers unions wouldnt participate unless only american steel was used. problem is that, aside from it being more expensive, there is not enough american steel to meet the demand. result: the new span is going to be a year and a half late and 50% more expensive.

4. another friend of mine worked for a bank that did business with the port of long beach where the clerical workers make $38/hour (about $75k a year). when the owners tried to upgrade some of the equipment by adding computer tracking, they wanted the workers to take a class and be able to demonstrate basic computer skills. the workers threatened to strike. it was only averted when they recieved a 'no lay-off clause'.

i could go further but you get the idea.

I was a member of the Carpenters Union and on one job site the Job Steward hit himself in the face with a Chainsaw. After a month of recuperation he went back to the job site demanding his job. The Foreman told him to take a hike because he said he was dangerous to work around. He filed a complaint to the Union and the Union sided with the Foreman. I've seen many a Union Carpenter sent packing because they didn't do his job well, was to slow, etc and I never witnessed the Union force the company to rehire them.

But didn't you know? People only know the negatives about unions and none of the positives. People have this impression that unions allow workers to sit around and play cards all day instead of doing actual work.

Well isn't that the whole point of goverment work? The union just ensures a better card game.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: Zebo
Union is the only way to fly if you work for someone else.... Alone, workers don't have sh1t unless they have exceptional or irreplacable skills...or work the government of course, which takes a serious felony conviction to get fired. Or three.

Hmm.. I work for someone else, and honestly, I think I am earning a pretty damn good living. I think what you meant to say is Unions are the way to go for the lazy and worthless workers.

Dead nuts on.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: Zebo
Union is the only way to fly if you work for someone else.... Alone, workers don't have sh1t unless they have exceptional or irreplacable skills...or work the government of course, which takes a serious felony conviction to get fired. Or three.

Hmm.. I work for someone else, and honestly, I think I am earning a pretty damn good living. I think what you meant to say is Unions are the way to go for the lazy and worthless workers.

Then you should seek Union Work

Doh!!!!

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: kaizersose
here are my experiences with unions:

1. at my company, a union machinist gets into an argument with his supervisor and ends up punching him in the face. supervisor fires him then and there. a year later, the union wins a wrongful termination suit for him because the proper paperwork wasnt filed before he was fired. he gets a year of back pay plus average overtime and his job back.

2. a friend of mine runs an HVAC engineering company. in order to work on govt. or related jobs, workers must be paid union wages even if they arent unionized. so if all these companies are bidding on jobs and they all pay their workers the same, how does the low bidder do it? by using cheap materials. now you know why public school facilities are in such bad shape. this same friend won a blackmail lawsuit against the local union because they threatened him with laor violations if he didnt unionize.

3. i live in the SF bay area where they are installing a new span on the bay bridge. originally, they were going to use some japanese steel in the construction but the workers unions wouldnt participate unless only american steel was used. problem is that, aside from it being more expensive, there is not enough american steel to meet the demand. result: the new span is going to be a year and a half late and 50% more expensive.

4. another friend of mine worked for a bank that did business with the port of long beach where the clerical workers make $38/hour (about $75k a year). when the owners tried to upgrade some of the equipment by adding computer tracking, they wanted the workers to take a class and be able to demonstrate basic computer skills. the workers threatened to strike. it was only averted when they recieved a 'no lay-off clause'.

i could go further but you get the idea.

Sounds like smart workers who know how to drive a hard bargian.

In every example the company either paid it or did'nt. The workers either earned it or did'nt. I'm sorry you guys don't like how negiotiaions work or envyous of others ability to do it better but the fact is they are paid exactly what someone is willing to pay then and the conditions they will work under. Hence they are paid what they are worth.

Voluntarly and mutual.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Baltazar325
Bah Unions had their place once. Today, they still have a place, just less of one. They are not needed like they were in the past, I'm not really a union suporter, but I know that they can help, I just think that most of the time they hurt more.

If we could curtail the growing power of corporations, I might be able to agree with you, but corporations have assumed the rights of humans under the Constitution, along with their many superhuman powers, while unions haven't, making them a far greater danger. I'd like to keep unions around at least until humans can compete on something close to even footing with corporations.

 

[CanOWorms]

I think a McDonald's in Quebec unionized, so they just shut it down. I wonder if Wal-Mart will go the same route.

 

[ReiAyanami]

walmart will respond by closing down all walmarts in canada. packing them up. and moving them to china.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: Baltazar325
Bah Unions had their place once. Today, they still have a place, just less of one. They are not needed like they were in the past, I'm not really a union suporter, but I know that they can help, I just think that most of the time they hurt more.

If we could curtail the growing power of corporations, I might be able to agree with you, but corporations have assumed the rights of humans under the Constitution, along with their many superhuman powers, while unions haven't, making them a far greater danger. I'd like to keep unions around at least until humans can compete on something close to even footing with corporations.

You mean "compete" on the basis of job performance...or lets say skill? Nah...we don't need that ...

CkG

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: Baltazar325
Bah Unions had their place once. Today, they still have a place, just less of one. They are not needed like they were in the past, I'm not really a union suporter, but I know that they can help, I just think that most of the time they hurt more.

If we could curtail the growing power of corporations, I might be able to agree with you, but corporations have assumed the rights of humans under the Constitution, along with their many superhuman powers, while unions haven't, making them a far greater danger. I'd like to keep unions around at least until humans can compete on something close to even footing with corporations.

What I love, is citibanks CEO makes more in a day than a "lazy" "overpriced" dockworker in a year, and you never hear these corporate pleebs bitch about that.

course he's paid what he's worth too so I understand thier view... all but the double standard..

 

[Red Dawn]

I remember back in the 70's the Carpenters Union got the Contractors to agree on every other friday off. It was good for the members because that extra 8 hours a week mostly went to taxes. Well after a year the Contractors presented an argument that having alternating fridays off hurt productivity and caused delays in finishing the Jobs. The Union looked at the facts and agreed that they had a valid complaint and did with alternating fridays off and went with half day fridays. The next year the Contractors again argued that it hurt productivity and such and again the Union agreed with them and went back to a 40 hour work week. Both the Union and the Contractors realized that they had a symbiotic relationship and actually worked well together.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I think a McDonald's in Quebec unionized, so they just shut it down. I wonder if Wal-Mart will go the same route.

And thier free to do that too Compitition and capitalism will take thier place before the wreaking ball arrives.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Baltazar325
Bah Unions had their place once. Today, they still have a place, just less of one. They are not needed like they were in the past, I'm not really a union suporter, but I know that they can help, I just think that most of the time they hurt more.

That's up to the indiviudal or group to decide whether a union is needed or not, not you, unless applied to your trade or circumstance...I would think. All a union does is give more leverage to an already un-equal company-worker relationship....probably the last form of dictatorship in western civilization other than my house which I'm working on too..

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Zebo
probably the last form of dictatorship in western civilization other than my house which I'm working on too..

Don't forget Anandtech

 

[Baltazar325]

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: Baltazar325
Bah Unions had their place once. Today, they still have a place, just less of one. They are not needed like they were in the past, I'm not really a union suporter, but I know that they can help, I just think that most of the time they hurt more.

If we could curtail the growing power of corporations, I might be able to agree with you, but corporations have assumed the rights of humans under the Constitution, along with their many superhuman powers, while unions haven't, making them a far greater danger. I'd like to keep unions around at least until humans can compete on something close to even footing with corporations.

See, I just dont see corpoprations as this super evil entity that most people do, thats just my opinion though. I understand why there is a need for Unions, but for the most part, IMHO, they are just organized blackmailers.

With watchdog groups all over the U.S. I just dont think the place of the Union is as important today as it was in the early 20th Century. Like I said, it's just my opinion though.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Baltazar325

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: Baltazar325
Bah Unions had their place once. Today, they still have a place, just less of one. They are not needed like they were in the past, I'm not really a union suporter, but I know that they can help, I just think that most of the time they hurt more.

If we could curtail the growing power of corporations, I might be able to agree with you, but corporations have assumed the rights of humans under the Constitution, along with their many superhuman powers, while unions haven't, making them a far greater danger. I'd like to keep unions around at least until humans can compete on something close to even footing with corporations.

See, I just dont see corpoprations as this super evil entity that most people do, thats just my opinion though. I understand why there is a need for Unions, but for the most part, IMHO, they are just organized blackmailers.

With watchdog groups all over the U.S. I just dont think the place of the Union is as important today as it was in the early 20th Century. Like I said, it's just my opinion though.

Actually the fear of Unionization makes many corporations and businesses treat their employess well.

 

[JHutch]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: kaizersose
here are my experiences with unions:

1. at my company, a union machinist gets into an argument with his supervisor and ends up punching him in the face. supervisor fires him then and there. a year later, the union wins a wrongful termination suit for him because the proper paperwork wasnt filed before he was fired. he gets a year of back pay plus average overtime and his job back.

2. a friend of mine runs an HVAC engineering company. in order to work on govt. or related jobs, workers must be paid union wages even if they arent unionized. so if all these companies are bidding on jobs and they all pay their workers the same, how does the low bidder do it? by using cheap materials. now you know why public school facilities are in such bad shape. this same friend won a blackmail lawsuit against the local union because they threatened him with laor violations if he didnt unionize.

3. i live in the SF bay area where they are installing a new span on the bay bridge. originally, they were going to use some japanese steel in the construction but the workers unions wouldnt participate unless only american steel was used. problem is that, aside from it being more expensive, there is not enough american steel to meet the demand. result: the new span is going to be a year and a half late and 50% more expensive.

4. another friend of mine worked for a bank that did business with the port of long beach where the clerical workers make $38/hour (about $75k a year). when the owners tried to upgrade some of the equipment by adding computer tracking, they wanted the workers to take a class and be able to demonstrate basic computer skills. the workers threatened to strike. it was only averted when they recieved a 'no lay-off clause'.

i could go further but you get the idea.

Sounds like smart workers who know how to drive a hard bargian.

In every example the company either paid it or did'nt. The workers either earned it or did'nt. I'm sorry you guys don't like how negiotiaions work or envyous of others ability to do it better but the fact is they are paid exactly what someone is willing to pay then and the conditions they will work under. Hence they are paid what they are worth.

Voluntarly and mutual.

Actually, no. If those cases, the person was paid what the OTHERS in the union were worth, because the employer didn't want to lose the good people in order to get rid of one moron. A good union (which in my experience are few and far between) would have recognized that the good of the union and the company meant cutting loose the moron.

JHutch

 

[Baltazar325]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Baltazar325
Bah Unions had their place once. Today, they still have a place, just less of one. They are not needed like they were in the past, I'm not really a union suporter, but I know that they can help, I just think that most of the time they hurt more.

That's up to the indiviudal or group to decide whether a union is needed or not, not you, unless applied to your trade or circumstance...I would think. All a union does is give more leverage to an already un-equal company-worker relationship....probably the last form of dictatorship in western civilization other than my house which I'm working on too..

I'm not saying that Unions dont help. I just think that a lot of times they go too far with their demands. Things like people being paid 15-20 dollars an hour for a guy to slap a sticker on the side of an air conditioning unit.

This is why many manufacturing jobs are being sent over seas. That and the fact that we as Americans are unwilling to pay the price of consumer goods produced here. Just an opinion of mine. I'm not trying to convince you to agree with me

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Baltazar325
[ Things like people being paid 15-20 dollars an hour for a guy to slap a sticker on the side of an air conditioning unit.

What company pays people that much to put stickers on the side of AC's?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Baltazar325

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: Baltazar325
Bah Unions had their place once. Today, they still have a place, just less of one. They are not needed like they were in the past, I'm not really a union suporter, but I know that they can help, I just think that most of the time they hurt more.

If we could curtail the growing power of corporations, I might be able to agree with you, but corporations have assumed the rights of humans under the Constitution, along with their many superhuman powers, while unions haven't, making them a far greater danger. I'd like to keep unions around at least until humans can compete on something close to even footing with corporations.

See, I just dont see corpoprations as this super evil entity that most people do, thats just my opinion though. I understand why there is a need for Unions, but for the most part, IMHO, they are just organized blackmailers.

With watchdog groups all over the U.S. I just dont think the place of the Union is as important today as it was in the early 20th Century. Like I said, it's just my opinion though.

Please everyone is out for themselves companies and workers alike, self intrest dominiates the day, "evils" got nothing to do with it..

Companies ar'nt organized black mailers? Most have a "take ir or leave it" philosophy along with wage collusion which for lots of non-union workers means "strave or work" by thier very nature companies have workers "over the barrel". But again, the company has that right, just like the workers have the right to "blackmail" the company into a better wage/conditions putting them "over the barrel". This is the way negotiations work in the real world with real money.



Of course it's not blackmail, the company can do something else just like the worker can whos unsatified with his pay can do something else. Usually though, they come to a mutual agreement beneficial to both parties. Hence paid what someones willing to pay and thus paid what they are worth. Always

 

[Baltazar325]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Baltazar325
[ Things like people being paid 15-20 dollars an hour for a guy to slap a sticker on the side of an air conditioning unit.

What company pays people that much to put stickers on the side of AC's?

Everyone takes everything so literal here.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Kibbo: Don't complicate things by explaining why two lines crossing on a piece of paper (graphed 'functionally ass-backwards' in the econ tradition!) can't make the world go around.

You'll never think you know as much about how the world works as right after econ101.

Crimson: it is more than possible to make a good living working for someone else, without being 'unionized'. However, the more replaceable you are, the less likely this is to happen. If you have unique skills, which are in demand, you are valuable, if not, you are not, regardless of whether you are 'lazy'. Union zealots sometimes forget, too, that the market power they build by regulation is innefficient and dubious. The most 'fair' relationship is between an employer who doesn't need the employee at the exclusion of all others, because another equally capable can be found for only marginally more pay (i.e. essentially the same pay), and an employee able to easily find work elsewhere (presumably at a 'marginally' lower rate).

'Supply and Demand': People are free to refuse to work for less than they feel they should ear; except that they have certain minimum commitments that must be met; if the employee has sufficient power in the labour market (ie there aren't really enough jobs to go around) the result is lower wages, so long as these wages are above what can be had from the relevent 'social safety net' if any exists, and regardless of whether the wages are adequate to support the labourer. In the medium to long term, the wages need to climb to at least a bare subsistence level if the labour force begins to die off from disease or starvation, but this is really the only stumbling block here. Note that things aren't *that bad* in North America at this time.

Supply and demand is a good way to describe the prices of luxury goods like Rolex watches, and relative prices of most consumer goods, like different kinds of food. However, when it comes to necessities, the rules become distorted; if your job search prooves futile, you will eventually take a job that under-values your skill-set, because you need to put a roof over your head. You will also pay more than you believe to be far for housing, medicine, and other goods and services that are absolutely necessary. (While someone recently described the theoretical value of 'not dying' as the discounted stream of your future production, this is not the same as the market value of that good; i.e. what you would be willing to pay. When you start analysing these things you find the best you can do is produce a 'corner solution' or rather, an indication that the solution is not described by your system of equations and assumptions).

None of this is a knock on economics, or markets, but it is a limitation; thre are some things that markets can't effectively explain or manage. Labour relations in situations where either workers or management have significant market power are on the list of things which are problematic for markets.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Baltazar325

Originally posted by: cquark
If we could curtail the growing power of corporations, I might be able to agree with you, but corporations have assumed the rights of humans under the Constitution, along with their many superhuman powers, while unions haven't, making them a far greater danger. I'd like to keep unions around at least until humans can compete on something close to even footing with corporations.

See, I just dont see corpoprations as this super evil entity that most people do, thats just my opinion though. I understand why there is a need for Unions, but for the most part, IMHO, they are just organized blackmailers.

I didn't say that corporations are super evil. With a good definition under the law, corporations are an effective means of organizing human endeavor; however, given a bad definition under the law (i.e., the current American assumption that corporations are human, despite the fact that no American Congress, President, or Supreme Court made such a declaration), corporations assume powers that are dangerous to the existence of democracy.

 

[Zebo]

'Supply and Demand': People are free to refuse to work for less than they feel they should ear; except that they have certain minimum commitments that must be met; if the employee has sufficient power in the labour market (ie there aren't really enough jobs to go around) the result is lower wages, so long as these wages are above what can be had from the relevent 'social safety net' if any exists, and regardless of whether the wages are adequate to support the labourer. In the medium to long term, the wages need to climb to at least a bare subsistence level if the labour force begins to die off from disease or starvation, but this is really the only stumbling block here. Note that things aren't *that bad* in North America at this time.

That's all nice thoery but in this country with free access to capital, compitition form former employees who decide to go it alone, compitition from other businesses always creates a situation you discribe impossible at this time. We arn't Chad after all, thanks to democratic reforms and a governemnt controlled economy for the people by the poeple.

Supply and demand is a good way to describe the prices of luxury goods like Rolex watches, and relative prices of most consumer goods, like different kinds of food. However, when it comes to necessities, the rules become distorted; if your job search prooves futile, you will eventually take a job that under-values your skill-set, because you need to put a roof over your head. You will also pay more than you believe to be far for housing, medicine, and other goods and services that are absolutely necessary. (While someone recently described the theoretical value of 'not dying' as the discounted stream of your future production, this is not the same as the market value of that good; i.e. what you would be willing to pay. When you start analysing these things you find the best you can do is produce a 'corner solution' or rather, an indication that the solution is not described by your system of equations and assumptions).

No supply and demand discribe everything. People are empowered and *can* vote for the bare nessesites as you call them to potect themselves from a harsh pure capitalist regime (like Chad). And do, from welfare, homestead act (since replealed), to FHA, to SBA, to union membership. Not enough IMO but then we get what we earn, always, in a democratic society. People in general like a balance between "days work for a days pay" and catching those fallen and down trotten so they have'nt gone to a pure socialist model. But make no mistake we get what we deserve.