Walmart closes 5 stores

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GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,284
1,996
126
possibly a legal thing? can't just fire everyone for wanting to unionize, close the store for 6 months, all those employees go elsewhere for work, rehire process a month before store opens, don't rehire people who used to work there.

pretty solid business strategy.

or possibly a cover for something else altogether, we'll probably never know the truth.

I think we already know. It's far more cost effective to shut down 5 stores for 6 months than it is to let unions get even one foot in the door. Wal-Mart easily has the cash flow to shutter hundreds of stores if necessary and they wouldn't hesitate for a second if that's what they needed to do to keep unions out.

And as much as it pains me to say this, good for Wal-Mart. There are very few organizations I hate enough to root for Wal-Mart, but labor unions are definitely on that short list.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
126
I think we already know. It's far more cost effective to shut down 5 stores for 6 months than it is to let unions get even one foot in the door. Wal-Mart easily has the cash flow to shutter hundreds of stores if necessary and they wouldn't hesitate for a second if that's what they needed to do to keep unions out.

And as much as it pains me to say this, good for Wal-Mart. There are very few organizations I hate enough to root for Wal-Mart, but labor unions are definitely on that short list.

So your fine with poor treatment of employees? They can just work elsewhere and market forces will change how Walmart does business? Employees shouldn't even try to make things better, they should just go get an education and work for someone batter? You're part of the problem.

I'm not a fan of unions however, there are some cases where big business absolutely will not change unless forced to. What other options do Walmart employees have?
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,206
18,674
146
I think we already know. It's far more cost effective to shut down 5 stores for 6 months than it is to let unions get even one foot in the door. Wal-Mart easily has the cash flow to shutter hundreds of stores if necessary and they wouldn't hesitate for a second if that's what they needed to do to keep unions out.

And as much as it pains me to say this, good for Wal-Mart. There are very few organizations I hate enough to root for Wal-Mart, but labor unions are definitely on that short list.

unions have their place. thanks for your input. i'd rather unions get more out of walmart instead of my tax dollars supplementing those employees income to close the gap.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
I think we already know. It's far more cost effective to shut down 5 stores for 6 months than it is to let unions get even one foot in the door. Wal-Mart easily has the cash flow to shutter hundreds of stores if necessary and they wouldn't hesitate for a second if that's what they needed to do to keep unions out.

And as much as it pains me to say this, good for Wal-Mart. There are very few organizations I hate enough to root for Wal-Mart, but labor unions are definitely on that short list.

And you hate unions because... what, exactly?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
unions have their place. thanks for your input. i'd rather unions get more out of walmart instead of my tax dollars supplementing those employees income to close the gap.

Then raise the minimum wage at the national level. Why should we not "supplement" Walmarts employees but continue to supplement every other minimum wage job? If it's your tax dollars you are concerned about it seems like an issue for Congress to address and not an issue for labor unions.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,206
18,674
146
Then raise the minimum wage at the national level. Why should we not "supplement" Walmarts employees but continue to supplement every other minimum wage job? If it's your tax dollars you are concerned about it seems like an issue for Congress to address and not an issue for labor unions.

Address from all angles. I'm not against raising the minimum wage, and I wasn't exactly sending that directly against walmart, but again...that will put a dent in corporate earnings. And since those same corporate earnings are what keep our politicians in power....seems like a catch 22.

If another major chain did the same thing, I'd be saying the same thing. Walmart is not alone in their antics.
 

ttown

Platinum Member
Oct 27, 2003
2,412
0
0
Good for WalMart.... America's largest private employer... where most employees earn more than minimum wage... while providing affordable goods to the people most hurt by Obama's policies

Love them.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Good for WalMart.... America's largest private employer... where most employees earn more than minimum wage... while providing affordable goods to the people most hurt by Obama's policies

Love them.

Yeh, really. What could be more fun than a race to the bottom?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Then raise the minimum wage at the national level. Why should we not "supplement" Walmarts employees but continue to supplement every other minimum wage job? If it's your tax dollars you are concerned about it seems like an issue for Congress to address and not an issue for labor unions.

Labor Unions aren't just about minimum wage, they're about raising wages, benefits & conditions for working people in general.
 

DrDoug

Diamond Member
Jan 16, 2014
3,580
1,629
136
Good for WalMart.... America's largest private employer... where most employees earn more than minimum wage... while providing affordable goods to the people most hurt by Obama's policies

Love them.

Are you aware that Walmart is the largest recipient of public welfare in that so many of their employees qualify for welfare benefits because their pay is so low? You, the taxpayer, are subsidizing their wages and yet you defend their preventing employees from organizing a union to push for better wages that would remove them from the welfare rolls? Interesting views. I'm more of the opinion that employees should be able to negotiate their wages. As individuals at the Walmart level, they have no real chance of negotiating anything. It's take it or leave it. If the current employees choose to be represented by a union then that should be their choice. Kroger has some stores that are union and some that aren't and they seem to be surviving just fine. I don't waste a tear on the Walmart family, they are wealthy beyond comprehension and piloting their yachts through oceans of cash.

I do feel sorry for their workers though. Many of them are poor and drowning in debt just to keep those yachts afloat.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,697
8,097
136
Good for WalMart.... America's largest private employer... where most employees earn more than minimum wage... while providing affordable goods to the people most hurt by Obama's policies

Love them.
WalMart is a sponge in every community it is located, siphoning out money to Arkansas, while paying their employees the least amount legal while keeping their hours low to decrease benefits, with those employees using public assistance to pay their bills.

Every dollar spent at a Walmart is one less dollar spent at a local business that pays locals a decent wage, who would go on to spend that dollar again and again and again inside that same community. Instead, it enriches a Walton. Hooray!

Walmart prices are so cheap because it it a monopsony (yeah, right, google it, you've never read/heard the word before) and imports a lot of garbage from China. USA! USA! US...er, CHINA! CHINA! CHINA!

I'm glad you're comfortable worshiping Mammon, though. Never apologize for being you!
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,745
4,563
136
And you hate unions because... what, exactly?

They're getting in the way of us subsidizing Walmarts low wages with foodstamps. Think of the shareholders. Will someone please think of the shareholders? :'(
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
So your fine with poor treatment of employees? They can just work elsewhere and market forces will change how Walmart does business? Employees shouldn't even try to make things better, they should just go get an education and work for someone batter? You're part of the problem.

I'm not a fan of unions however, there are some cases where big business absolutely will not change unless forced to. What other options do Walmart employees have?
As with anything, you need moderation.
Unions served a damn fine purpose. I rather like the idea of a 40hr workweek, extra pay for overtime, no child laborers, things like OSHA, and various other protections now afforded to workers. Or rather, things that were afforded them, and which are (big surprise) being eroded away a little at time.

A large chunk of our economy has been sent overseas already anyway. Workers here get laid off, management at the top gets paid lavishly for saving so much money by employing third-world laborers, and the US economy suffers another notch. The players still in the employment game here are then compared to those in poor countries, where the rules of the game are completely different. No wonder our workers hold up unfavorably. How do you think you'd do if you were playing a game, but the opposition wasn't playing by the same rule book?

Companies will frequently try to screw over workers in a variety of ways. This is just one example. Work was slowly siphoned away from US workers. Wages for the working class remained stagnant in the face of inflation and enormous increases in productivity; the money from the productivity gains and outsourcing went right to the top of many organizations. It seems it's now accepted as the norm for upper management to continue to receive good benefits and pay increases, while the workers are told that healthcare premiums will continue to rise, profit sharing and 401k matching isn't available, and there's no money left for pay increases. We've done a good job here of telling our workers that they are no longer wanted - and at the same time, many of those workers have been convinced that they need to actively fight measures that would reverse that trend.

How poorly might a company want to treat its employees? Remember, it was once legal in this country to own people, and force them to work until they died. Many people vehemently fought efforts to make that practice illegal. Human beings haven't really changed all that much in a very long time. We're still the same primates, outfitted with primitive survival instincts and tribal tendencies.
What was one way to break up an attempt to unionize a company's workers? Shoot them or burn them.


What other options do the Walmart employees have? A common response is "Just get another job." Which is easy if you've got several months of living expenses sitting in the bank or in safe investments. It's not so easy when you're working for very little pay and can't save very much. It's also not easy when the major players can operate within the same shady set of rules. Remember, there's nothing saying that competition invariably leads to better results. If one place gets away with treating workers like crap, other companies will want in on that gravy train, too.
 
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DrDoug

Diamond Member
Jan 16, 2014
3,580
1,629
136
What kills me about the whole us versus them when it comes to those who want cheap stuff and those who want respectable pay is the fact that those who are punching down should be punching up instead. Those at the bottom are facing reality; inflation has killed the minimum wage and trying to live on it is almost impossible. Those in the 'middle' don't want the minimum wage to increase because prices on the goods they enjoy will invariably go up too.

What's wrong here is that 'middle' is missing out on the fact that not only are executives screwing over the minimum wage worker, they are screwing over nearly everyone who isn't an executive or absolutely essential to the operation of the company. Even then the executives are going to push to get everything they can for as little as possible. Everyone else is an expense to be minimized, even the workers in the 'middle'. While you might feel that your wages are fair, you too have been shortchanged in the name of corporate profits and executive compensation. Everyone but the shareholders and those at the top, who often one and the same, pays to make their corporation profitable for them.

Regarding executive compensation, how much is too much? From what I have seen so far from some people, there is no amount of executive compensation that is too much. It's as if they don't realize that part of the cost for the expensive item they want to buy is because of excessive compensation. In our corporate economy, the worker and the consumer get screwed both coming and going while the executives make out like bandits. Yet some people are stupid enough to cheer these rich bastards on, as if it's some competition and their team is winning. Here's a clue; they don't give a shit about you people who defend them.

They own the politicians you voted into office and they get what they want because they have the influence (money) to do it.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
What kills me about the whole us versus them when it comes to those who want cheap stuff and those who want respectable pay is the fact that those who are punching down should be punching up instead. Those at the bottom are facing reality; inflation has killed the minimum wage and trying to live on it is almost impossible. Those in the 'middle' don't want the minimum wage to increase because prices on the goods they enjoy will invariably go up too.
Small-picture thinking in action.

At work, the benefits package includes profit sharing and occasional bonus payouts, which is rather nice.
As a result of the profit sharing though, no one wants to buy new equipment. "Oh, you're spending money again? So how much of my profit sharing check did you just piss away?" (Engineer, so I have a hand in deciding what equipment gets bought.)

We're in something of a niche market, so there was a bit of complacency: Some of our processes were quite inefficient. Some new equipment was purchased, with a six-figure pricetag. This equipment's ROI time, which most other companies would cost out over a period of a few years, was met within the first 4 months. The rest was savings. Profit sharing payouts from last year were the highest I'd seen in several years at the company. Following its introduction into the production line, the first three quarterly finance statements were redone a few times because the profit margins had jumped enough that they looked like some kind of serious error.

(What's nice here is that the owner does recognize the value of investing in the company and its employees. The 401k match increased, and weekly health insurance deductions are still under $3/week for a single person, and it's a pretty good plan.)


Even in light of the quick payback times, quite a few people still don't want to spend money on anything. Maintenance on critical quipment is prone to lag, some people keep working with old tools and dying cordless drill batteries, work carts are always in short supply...

It's not just idly spending money though. It's investing: It's investing in significant increases in the future profitability of the company. But all sights seem to be set on the short-term.



What's wrong here is that 'middle' is missing out on the fact that not only are executives screwing over the minimum wage worker, they are screwing over nearly everyone who isn't an executive or absolutely essential to the operation of the company.
And people wonder why it can seem so difficult to raise a typical family anymore. They're being prodded to maintain a certain standard of living on what is effectively an ever-decreasing paycheck, while often facing uncertainty at work, knowing that management is making every effort to outsource their job to another country. Widespread uncertainty and chronic worrying are also not good for an economy.




Even then the executives are going to push to get everything they can for as little as possible. Everyone else is an expense to be minimized, even the workers in the 'middle'. While you might feel that your wages are fair, you too have been shortchanged in the name of corporate profits and executive compensation. Everyone but the shareholders and those at the top, who often one and the same, pays to make their corporation profitable for them.
And who is more likely to get advance warning of an impending layoff, and more likely to get a nice severance package? Mhmm.
Rank & file is given a few seconds of advance notice, a reminder of any NDAs that may have been signed during their time there, and then an escort out the door.



Regarding executive compensation, how much is too much? From what I have seen so far from some people, there is no amount of executive compensation that is too much. It's as if they don't realize that part of the cost for the expensive item they want to buy is because of excessive compensation. In our corporate economy, the worker and the consumer get screwed both coming and going while the executives make out like bandits. Yet some people are stupid enough to cheer these rich bastards on, as if it's some competition and their team is winning. Here's a clue; they don't give a shit about you people who defend them.

They own the politicians you voted into office and they get what they want because they have the influence (money) to do it.
One yacht and one private jet aren't enough. I want to be able to have a lavish means of transport available within 10,000 miles at all times, and I will step on as many people as I need to in order to get it. That, and being able to afford the cost of having significant influence over my politician(s) of choice.

I think the mentality for defending the rich is, "I want to be rich some day!" That, or it's like some kind of abusive relationship, where the abused starts to sympathize with the plight of the abuser.

"My tax burden last year was higher than your annual salary!"
A surprising number of people will start cursing the government for daring to take their dear leader's money.
A surprisingly small number of people will instead get out the world's tiniest violin.
 

DrDoug

Diamond Member
Jan 16, 2014
3,580
1,629
136
...

... It's investing in significant increases in the future profitability of the company. But all sights seem to be set on the short-term.

...

I believe the reason sights are set on the short term is because that is all that matters to the executive of today. If it keeps paying off, great! If not, milk it dry and move on to the next cash cow. In too many corporations that's all that matters today. I believe that the reduction in the top marginal rates are the reasons the executive of today looks to maximize profit and compensation. When the top rates were high it made no sense for a company to pour excessive levels of pay into the executive boards of their companies. Past a certain point, the government was taking a large chunk of the income. This acted as a check valve on excessive pay, forcing companies to reinvest that income in their company. They did this via new projects, expansion, better pay and benefits for the employees and so on. The point is, they put the money back into the company rather than hand it over to the government. The government tax policy influenced the way businesses conducted themselves, go figure!

Once tax rates dropped some executives realized that they could instead dump the cash into their bank accounts and all they had to do was make the company look good. Add to that the incentive it gives executives to further reduce expenses by off-shoring to the lowest bidder and cut back on wage and benefit increases and you have the mess we are in today. We need new, higher tax rates for the executive earners of today.

People who undercut those who seek to improve their lot in life by supporting those who would take advantage of them need to have their head examined.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,284
1,996
126
And you hate unions because... what, exactly?

Oh, lots of reasons. I've been in one and have seen how they operate from the inside and they make Wal-Mart look like the good guys. They're lazy, corrupt, inefficient, selfish, unrealistic, greedy and would happily sink and entire company employing millions of union members just to protect a couple of incompetent deadbeats.

I work in a business that is heavily unionized. There are some pockets of resistance though. It's not areas where unions are not allowed, it's areas where the employees themselves look at the cost/benefit of the union and work to keep the union out. That doesn't stop the union though, about once a year you can count on the union picketing the location. And since the employees don't want the union and won't participate in the strike, the union goes into the closest slums and hires picketers. It's pretty funny. Until the union starts vandalizing cars of their prospective employees who don't want to be in the union. Then it's less amusing.

Wal-mart employees are typically bottom of the barrel. They're not educated or skilled, trained or motivated. They can be replaced with any warm body off the street without it impacting the store in any way. Yet they feel unappreciated and scream they want more money. For what? The market decides what the job is worth. Working in a Wal-Mart is not the same as working in a coal mine where you have a company store and are indentured servants. If you want a better job with more pay, get one. If you can't, then you're probably at the right place on the earnings ladder. Nobody hands out raises to employees when those employees can be replaced with somebody just as good for the same pay. Why would they? Yet unions seem to believe that's their birthright. You don't have to be good at your job, you just have to hold a sign and scream GIMME!!! at the top of your lungs until it works.

In 2004 the Pennsylvania toll collectors union held a strike for better wages. At the time the minimum wage was something like $5.15 an hour. The Pennsylvania toll workers average pay was like $18 an hour for standing around making change. And they were screaming for a raise.
 

ttown

Platinum Member
Oct 27, 2003
2,412
0
0
Are you aware that Walmart is the largest recipient of public welfare in that so many of their employees qualify for welfare benefits because their pay is so low? You, the taxpayer, are subsidizing their wages and yet you defend their preventing employees from organizing a union to push for better wages that would remove them from the welfare rolls? Interesting views. I'm more of the opinion that employees should be able to negotiate their wages. As individuals at the Walmart level, they have no real chance of negotiating anything. It's take it or leave it. ...snip....
Are you aware that Walmart doesn't actually receive one penny of public welfare?
I think it's *your* view that is interesting.... You and other liberals/democrats seem to be a "How dare Walmart employ these otherwise unemployed people and in so doing, offset the huge amount of welfare benefits they would have received if Walmart didn't exist" kind of guy. If they eventually lose their dependence on the Govmint, they might actually vote republican/conservative some day -- and you don't want that. My view is: "Thank you Walmart for lowering my total tax bill by hiring so many people and giving them the experience they need to advance in life... and for providing me (and them) with affordable goods while you're at it."
My first hand view of unions is very similar to the post above this one responding to the "why hate unions" post -- so I applaud any effort to defeat them. If you are worth more than the wage an employer is willing to pay you -- then prove it by getting another job with a higher wage (or a promotion).

WalMart is a sponge in every community it is located, siphoning out money to Arkansas, while paying their employees the least amount legal while keeping their hours low to decrease benefits, with those employees using public assistance to pay their bills.

Every dollar spent at a Walmart is one less dollar spent at a local business that pays locals a decent wage, who would go on to spend that dollar again and again and again inside that same community. Instead, it enriches a Walton. Hooray!

Walmart prices are so cheap because it it a monopsony (yeah, right, google it, you've never read/heard the word before) and imports a lot of garbage from China. USA! USA! US...er, CHINA! CHINA! CHINA!

I'm glad you're comfortable worshiping Mammon, though. Never apologize for being you!
Exaggerate much? I suppose "sponge" is a pretty subjective term, but I wouldn't consider (at most) $0.035/$1.00 spent (the avg. profit margin per store) as "siphoning out money to Arkansas." Why don't you quit believing the liberal lies and instead say to yourself "Every dollar spent at Walmart helps support 400 employees in the community, many of which couldn't get employed at any other local business due mostly to the fact they are unskilled with little work experience" ?
I think it's odd that liberals/democrats/(and yes, unfortunately republicans) invent welfare systems -- and then bitch about people using them.
I'm all for abolishing them (except in rare instances)... but I suspect you aren't.

And you're right that I've never heard/read the word "monopsony" in any of my econ classes (that I took at a liberal arts college, lol) or anywhere else -- I'll google it later. But whatever the definition is, it (probably) loses a bit of steam with Walmart's recent focus on selling more "made in America" products.

Have a great Sunday... And don't forget to vote for Hilldog. Just once, though... mmmkay.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
I still do not see the animosity towards Unions is justified.

This isn't the Mafia days regarding them.

The only one I have ever been in was from 2000-2010.

Teachers have them, Police have them, Firemen have them.

It provides an elected group of people, their peers, the power to collectively bargain with the board of directors with representation for fair treatment with the workers they employ, does that sound familiar in some way?

Makes the Tea Baggers that support getting rid of them sound pretty dense IMHO.
 
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DrDoug

Diamond Member
Jan 16, 2014
3,580
1,629
136
Are you aware that Walmart doesn't actually receive one penny of public welfare? ...

...

You might want to look into their museum deal with Arkansas before you try to say what you said above with a straight face. That's just one of the slimy tax deals they have made to benefit themselves directly. Regarding Walmart and receiving public welfare, the wages of every single one of their employees who is on welfare are what they are benefiting from. The same goes for any company where their pay is so low that the employees qualify for welfare benefits. I'm sure glad to know that you are fine with Walmart underpaying their employees so that you and I get to make up the difference in their pay.

Being that you started your post with that whopping lie it should be no surprise to anyone that the rest of your diatribe isn't worth spitting on.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Oh, lots of reasons. I've been in one and have seen how they operate from the inside and they make Wal-Mart look like the good guys. They're lazy, corrupt, inefficient, selfish, unrealistic, greedy and would happily sink and entire company employing millions of union members just to protect a couple of incompetent deadbeats.

I work in a business that is heavily unionized. There are some pockets of resistance though. It's not areas where unions are not allowed, it's areas where the employees themselves look at the cost/benefit of the union and work to keep the union out. That doesn't stop the union though, about once a year you can count on the union picketing the location. And since the employees don't want the union and won't participate in the strike, the union goes into the closest slums and hires picketers. It's pretty funny. Until the union starts vandalizing cars of their prospective employees who don't want to be in the union. Then it's less amusing.

Wal-mart employees are typically bottom of the barrel. They're not educated or skilled, trained or motivated. They can be replaced with any warm body off the street without it impacting the store in any way. Yet they feel unappreciated and scream they want more money. For what? The market decides what the job is worth. Working in a Wal-Mart is not the same as working in a coal mine where you have a company store and are indentured servants. If you want a better job with more pay, get one. If you can't, then you're probably at the right place on the earnings ladder. Nobody hands out raises to employees when those employees can be replaced with somebody just as good for the same pay. Why would they? Yet unions seem to believe that's their birthright. You don't have to be good at your job, you just have to hold a sign and scream GIMME!!! at the top of your lungs until it works.

In 2004 the Pennsylvania toll collectors union held a strike for better wages. At the time the minimum wage was something like $5.15 an hour. The Pennsylvania toll workers average pay was like $18 an hour for standing around making change. And they were screaming for a raise.

Now I understand. You hate unions because you're an opinionated & self important prick.

I was just checking to be sure.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
Oh, lots of reasons. I've been in one and have seen how they operate from the inside and they make Wal-Mart look like the good guys. They're lazy, corrupt, inefficient, selfish, unrealistic, greedy and would happily sink and entire company employing millions of union members just to protect a couple of incompetent deadbeats.

I work in a business that is heavily unionized. There are some pockets of resistance though. It's not areas where unions are not allowed, it's areas where the employees themselves look at the cost/benefit of the union and work to keep the union out. That doesn't stop the union though, about once a year you can count on the union picketing the location. And since the employees don't want the union and won't participate in the strike, the union goes into the closest slums and hires picketers. It's pretty funny. Until the union starts vandalizing cars of their prospective employees who don't want to be in the union. Then it's less amusing.

Wal-mart employees are typically bottom of the barrel. They're not educated or skilled, trained or motivated. They can be replaced with any warm body off the street without it impacting the store in any way. Yet they feel unappreciated and scream they want more money. For what? The market decides what the job is worth. Working in a Wal-Mart is not the same as working in a coal mine where you have a company store and are indentured servants. If you want a better job with more pay, get one. If you can't, then you're probably at the right place on the earnings ladder. Nobody hands out raises to employees when those employees can be replaced with somebody just as good for the same pay. Why would they? Yet unions seem to believe that's their birthright. You don't have to be good at your job, you just have to hold a sign and scream GIMME!!! at the top of your lungs until it works.

In 2004 the Pennsylvania toll collectors union held a strike for better wages. At the time the minimum wage was something like $5.15 an hour. The Pennsylvania toll workers average pay was like $18 an hour for standing around making change. And they were screaming for a raise.

Now I understand. You hate unions because you're an opinionated & self important prick.

I was just checking to be sure.

Wow, that's a bit amazing he even went there.

You are part of the destruction of modern society, it appears.

I guess we need more tax breaks for the estate taves passing on mega money to their descendents though.
 
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