Want to pay $100 more per year in energy costs?

[Svnla]

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: ebaycj
Not to mention the fact that this is not a TAX in any way, shape or form.

This is increased restrictions on emissions, that is levied on heavily polluting companies (usually electric / gas / oil etc..). It costs them more to be cleaner.

Just out of curiosity, how do you think it's being "levied" on them?

Please pay particular attention to definitions 2 and 5...

tax
Pronunciation: \'taks\
1 : to assess or determine judicially the amount of (costs in a court action)
2 : to levy a tax on
3 obsolete : to enter (a name) in a list <there went out a decree?that all the world should be taxed ? Luke 2:1(Authorized Version)>
4 : charge, accuse <taxed him with neglect of duty>; also : censure
5 : to make onerous and rigorous demands on

They are forced to comply with emissions requirements. Making those requirements more strict is NOT a tax increase.
Taxes are amounts of money paid to the government. Making emission requirements more strict does NOT increase the amount of money the company pays to the government.

Let see, the city nears by me is forced to upgrade their sewerage system to fully comply with the EPA various new mandates. The people who live in that city will have their sewer fee double or triple (more than $10/month for sure).

So they pay more and will be much more later in the near future out of their pockets but I am sure they would love to hear your "but..but ..but..those are not taxes..and they are good for you people" statement. What make you think companies (large and small) won't pass along to the consumers/customers any new fees/mandate costs that are forced on them by the government?

Don't forget about other taxes..opp..I mean fees that going up too while services are being cut in almost all city/county/state government entities.

Hummm...the money left over at the end of the month is getting smaller for us due to all the increasing fees but I surely did feel all warm and cozy because I did not pay any higher taxes....weeeeeeeee...hope and change...yes we can!!!!! pay more, more for our beloved government...comrades..they know what best for us...changes we can believe in.

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: Via

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Screwing with folk's heating bills will reap Democrats the same rewards as screwing with folk's gun rights.

But people's heating bills already HAVE been screwed with massively this decade. I rented a small townhouse and was able to control my costs, but a good example would be a homeowning friend of mine who's average heating bill shot from around $150 to almost $400 a month very quickly a few winters ago.

I don't know what he pays now; maybe prices have come back down somewhat. People need to direct their anger in the right direction.

Energy prices went up through the roof because of the speculators running wild on wall street.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
OMG OMG! I totally understand the fear and gnashing of teeth. It's like the nightmare world of paying $8/month to help clean up our energy production (at minimum) and maybe helping stave off climate change and creating tons of new jobs (at best) is coming true! Oh the humanity . . .

:roll:

If I thought it would actually help to "clean up our energy production" and "stave off climate change" I wouldn't mind paying it. In reality, 8 bucks a month isn't going to do shit to put a dent in either problem.

I hear you! Just like acid rain, right? Oh wait ... there is no acid rain anymore. Hmmmm, I wonder how that happened? Hmmmm, 1990 Clean Air Act you say? Totally effective at cutting sulfur dioxide pollution, which causes acid rain, you say? At a cost of one fifth of the original EPA forecast, you say? Huh, how about that?

Nah, I hear you Chicken, the gov't can never do anything right. Never.

There is no acid rain anymore? You must know something the scientists don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_rain

Overall, the Program's cap and trade program has been successful in achieving its goals. Since the 1990s, SO2 emissions have dropped 40%, and according to the Pacific Research Institute, acid rain levels have dropped 65% since 1976.

You also disregard that the CAA began in 1955 with the Air Pollution Control Act followed by the Clean Air Act of 1963, the Air Quality Act of 1967, the Clean Air Act Extension of 1970, and Clean Air Act Amendments in 1977 and 1990. So I guess we can let big GOV swing and miss for 30 or 40 years again until they kinda get it right?

I wonder what the costs were to consumers over the years to implement the programs above to finally achieve not an elimination of the problems, but a reduction?

My point is that 8 bucks a month isn't going to do squat to resolve the problems. Some of the problems haven't even been properly defined yet, like Climate Change, and in reality you can't actually fix a problem when you really don't know what the problem is in the first place. But go ahead and jump the gun, take some wild swings at it simply because "OMG, Something must be done. The sky is FALLING!"

Sheesh. And I'm supposed to be the chicken here? lol.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Point taken, but can we even deal with it? Can we alone as a nation deal with it? How do you propose to get China and India and other nations to cut their emissions? In a way it's a tragedy of the commons situation--it isn't in any one nation's interest to do it unless all of the other nations are doing it.

What about addressing one of the huge underlying drivers of pollution--population explosion?

china seems to be taking seriously their environmental problems. they're also addressing population expansion.



frankly this is worthwhile just getting us to reduce payments to chavez, the ayatollah, and putin.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Any of you cheap ass fuck heads figure up what global warming is going to cost you when we get the full effects?

yea more taxes for Americans all in the name of the global warming hysteria. now what about china and India? i wonder how much they contribute to global warming and from what i have seen they dont give a shit.

 

[Ronstang]

Anybody who thinks this is only going to cost the average family $8 a month is either naive or stupid. Energy prices affect EVERYTHING you do and buy so even if this magical fake number were real as the direct cost the indirect cost would be much more. Cost increases across the board like this follow a trend similar to the money multiplier affect when it comes down to true cost. Everything you do and buy will become more expensive. Go Democrats....way to fix the economy with those millions of high paying green jobs!!!! Yay!!! I wonder if this plan makes more jobs than it is going to send to shit holes like India and China where they don't have to follow such BS rules. We all know the answer, well those of us who don't process logic through an emotion filter.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: Ronstang
Anybody who thinks this is only going to cost the average family $8 a month is either naive or stupid. Energy prices affect EVERYTHING you do and buy so even if this magical fake number were real as the direct cost the indirect cost would be much more. Cost increases across the board like this follow a trend similar to the money multiplier affect when it comes down to true cost. Everything you do and buy will become more expensive. Go Democrats....way to fix the economy with those millions of high paying green jobs!!!! Yay!!! I wonder if this plan makes more jobs than it is going to send to shit holes like India and China where they don't have to follow such BS rules. We all know the answer, well those of us who don't process logic through an emotion filter.

That's why the House version of the bill even includes a section to give special subsidies (welfare) to people who lose their jobs as a direct result of the bill itself... which means even more expenses for tax-payers... isn't that just fantastic!?

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: ebaycj
Really? All this bitching over an extra 8.33 per month on your combined total of electricity + natural gas ?

I guess there are a lot of broke-asses out there, though.

This kind of attitude is what led to half a dozen different fees and taxes on telephone bills. "It's only $x a month!" I hate that way of thinking. Always look long-term and big picture.

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: OutHouse

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Any of you cheap ass fuck heads figure up what global warming is going to cost you when we get the full effects?

now what about china and India? i wonder how much they contribute to global warming and from what i have seen they dont give a shit.

I believe this 100% true.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: Ronstang
Anybody who thinks this is only going to cost the average family $8 a month is either naive or stupid. Energy prices affect EVERYTHING you do and buy so even if this magical fake number were real as the direct cost the indirect cost would be much more. Cost increases across the board like this follow a trend similar to the money multiplier affect when it comes down to true cost. Everything you do and buy will become more expensive. Go Democrats....way to fix the economy with those millions of high paying green jobs!!!! Yay!!! I wonder if this plan makes more jobs than it is going to send to shit holes like India and China where they don't have to follow such BS rules. We all know the answer, well those of us who don't process logic through an emotion filter.

That's why the House version of the bill even includes a section to give special subsidies (welfare) to people who lose their jobs as a direct result of the bill itself... which means even more expenses for tax-payers... isn't that just fantastic!?

That is how Democrats operate. They create the need for more government. I just wish all the liberals who are actually smart would wake up and realize that the Democrats are all about government for government's sake, they don't care about anyone. We need a viable 3rd party who actually cares.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

That is how Democrats operate. They create the need for more government. I just wish all the liberals who are actually smart would wake up and realize that the Democrats are all about government for government's sake, they don't care about anyone. We need a viable 3rd party who actually cares.

Like your hero & co were any better?

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Ronstang

That is how Democrats operate. They create the need for more government. I just wish all the liberals who are actually smart would wake up and realize that the Democrats are all about government for government's sake, they don't care about anyone. We need a viable 3rd party who actually cares.

Like your hero & co were any better?

No shit Bush spent money like a drunk'in sailor and also dramatically increased government.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Ausm

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Ronstang

That is how Democrats operate. They create the need for more government. I just wish all the liberals who are actually smart would wake up and realize that the Democrats are all about government for government's sake, they don't care about anyone. We need a viable 3rd party who actually cares.

Like your hero & co were any better?

No shit Bush spent money like a drunk'in sailor and also dramatically increased government.

What POTUS in the last 90 years hasnt?

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Ronstang

That is how Democrats operate. They create the need for more government. I just wish all the liberals who are actually smart would wake up and realize that the Democrats are all about government for government's sake, they don't care about anyone. We need a viable 3rd party who actually cares.

Like your hero & co were any better?

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Ronstang

That is how Democrats operate. They create the need for more government. I just wish all the liberals who are actually smart would wake up and realize that the Democrats are all about government for government's sake, they don't care about anyone. We need a viable 3rd party who actually cares.

Like your hero & co were any better?

I wasn't a fan of Bush and disagreed with him because of his reckless spending and increasing the size of the government you twit. Now I am wondering why I even bothered to respond to the dumbest person here.

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Ausm

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Ronstang

That is how Democrats operate. They create the need for more government. I just wish all the liberals who are actually smart would wake up and realize that the Democrats are all about government for government's sake, they don't care about anyone. We need a viable 3rd party who actually cares.

Like your hero & co were any better?

No shit Bush spent money like a drunk'in sailor and also dramatically increased government.

What POTUS in the last 90 years hasnt?

Then why does the right continually claim to be spending conscious and also want to reduce government? :roll:

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Ronstang

That is how Democrats operate. They create the need for more government. I just wish all the liberals who are actually smart would wake up and realize that the Democrats are all about government for government's sake, they don't care about anyone. We need a viable 3rd party who actually cares.

Like your hero & co were any better?

I wasn't a fan of Bush and disagreed with him because of his reckless spending and increasing the size of the government you twit. Now I am wondering why I even bothered to respond to the dumbest person here.

Then all of you loser Republicans stop feigning about Obama to magically reduce the Government and cut spending.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: Ausm

Then why does the right continually claim to be spending conscious and also want to reduce government? :roll:

I see you are one of those who cannot separate the voter from the politician. Lately it seems that Republicans are no longer conservatives, which is one of their biggest problems. Politicians say one thing to get elected and then pretty much do what they want until someone calls them on it. I can guarantee you that the average educated conservative is really pissed at the Republicans for what they morphed into over the last 8 years.

 

[keird]

It took me a while to find the program from NPR but the transcript shows the entire interview.

This new program, which started in Berkeley, is designed to take a type of municipal financing that cities have been using for over a century and apply it to allowing property owners to make these energy efficiency and solar improvements. What it allows a property owner to do is install an energy efficiency retrofit, or a solar system, and then pay for the cost over ten or 20 years as an individual voluntary surcharge on their property tax bill. So, you know, we get rid of that big upfront cost, and allow property owners to pay for the improvement much like a utility bill over months and years.

That's one of the real pieces of magic here. An average homeowner in the Unites States moves every five to seven years these days, and that's simply not long enough to recoup the benefits of making one of these deep improvements to your home. So, under this new program, a property owner who makes the improvement, and then moves, the new owner just comes in and picks up paying for the improvement, where the other property owner left off. The property tax surcharge just transfers automatically between owners, much like your utility just transfers to the next owner when the new owner moves in.

Geothermal heating/cooloing has always appealed to me. I hope this gets off the ground.

 

[miketheidiot]

on my current minimal income i am entirely fine with this.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
OMG OMG! I totally understand the fear and gnashing of teeth. It's like the nightmare world of paying $8/month to help clean up our energy production (at minimum) and maybe helping stave off climate change and creating tons of new jobs (at best) is coming true! Oh the humanity . . .

:roll:

If I thought it would actually help to "clean up our energy production" and "stave off climate change" I wouldn't mind paying it. In reality, 8 bucks a month isn't going to do shit to put a dent in either problem.

I hear you! Just like acid rain, right? Oh wait ... there is no acid rain anymore. Hmmmm, I wonder how that happened? Hmmmm, 1990 Clean Air Act you say? Totally effective at cutting sulfur dioxide pollution, which causes acid rain, you say? At a cost of one fifth of the original EPA forecast, you say? Huh, how about that?

Nah, I hear you Chicken, the gov't can never do anything right. Never.

There is no acid rain anymore? You must know something the scientists don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_rain

Overall, the Program's cap and trade program has been successful in achieving its goals. Since the 1990s, SO2 emissions have dropped 40%, and according to the Pacific Research Institute, acid rain levels have dropped 65% since 1976.

You also disregard that the CAA began in 1955 with the Air Pollution Control Act followed by the Clean Air Act of 1963, the Air Quality Act of 1967, the Clean Air Act Extension of 1970, and Clean Air Act Amendments in 1977 and 1990. So I guess we can let big GOV swing and miss for 30 or 40 years again until they kinda get it right?

I wonder what the costs were to consumers over the years to implement the programs above to finally achieve not an elimination of the problems, but a reduction?

My point is that 8 bucks a month isn't going to do squat to resolve the problems. Some of the problems haven't even been properly defined yet, like Climate Change, and in reality you can't actually fix a problem when you really don't know what the problem is in the first place. But go ahead and jump the gun, take some wild swings at it simply because "OMG, Something must be done. The sky is FALLING!"

Sheesh. And I'm supposed to be the chicken here? lol.

You know what I meant. Besides the program is ahead of schedule in terms of achieving benchmarks. From the Wiki:

In 2007, total SO2 emissions were 8.9 million tons, achieving the program's long term goal ahead of the 2010 statutory deadline.

So stop flummoxing and admit these sorts of programs work. Even if there is no such thing as MM climate change, we'll create jobs, help to wean ourselves off foreign oil and eliminate dirty technology like coal-fired energy plants. Which are all admirable goals by themselves.

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
on my current minimal income i am entirely fine with this.

That's why you're an idiot.




(I couldn't resist...)

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So stop flummoxing and admit these sorts of programs work. Even if there is no such thing as MM climate change, we'll create jobs, help to wean ourselves off foreign oil and eliminate dirty technology like coal-fired energy plants. Which are all admirable goals by themselves.

Why, of course. Pointing to a single success in a government program is a guarantee that this effort will also be a success as well and everyone should simply lay down and accept it, no questions asked.

Not only that, but my assertion is that 8 dollars a month isn't going to do crap to resolve the problems with energy and climate change, an assertion your attempted diversion into acid rain hasn't even begun to address.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So stop flummoxing and admit these sorts of programs work. Even if there is no such thing as MM climate change, we'll create jobs, help to wean ourselves off foreign oil and eliminate dirty technology like coal-fired energy plants. Which are all admirable goals by themselves.

Why, of course. Pointing to a single success in a government program is a guarantee that this effort will also be a success as well and everyone should simply lay down and accept it, no questions asked.

Not only that, but my assertion is that 8 dollars a month isn't going to do crap to resolve the problems with energy and climate change, an assertion your attempted diversion into acid rain hasn't even begun to address.

Obamas budget projects revenue of 624 billion over 10 years from climate change legislation.

It's not going to be 8.00 dollars a month, more like 10 times that, and it still isn't going to do crap to resolve the problems with energy and climate change.

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
OMG OMG! I totally understand the fear and gnashing of teeth. It's like the nightmare world of paying $8/month to help clean up our energy production (at minimum) and maybe helping stave off climate change and creating tons of new jobs (at best) is coming true! Oh the humanity . . .

:roll:

The gnashing of teeth is from the people who think its more like $80 a month instead of $8.

Think of it this way, 100$ a year for 100 million households is 10 billion a year. That's enough to build 2 nuclear plants. If you want to get rid of coal in our lifetimes you would have to build more like 20 nuke plants a year. Or equivalent solar/wind backed up by natural gas.

Think if it this way, the company I work for is currently building 10 Billion dollars worth of new coal plants right now, so if the whole country is spending that amount on new green power plants they can't even keep coal under 50% based on a single company