Yup. We can find no evidence of a crime, so now we're going to look for evidence of him keeping us from finding a crime. It's the death of a thousand small cuts, campaigning by leaking innuendo for public opinion.
I would say this is what happens when an outsider beats the system, but Trump is such a douche that you can't overlook the effect of having a President despised by the establishment of both parties. Perhaps an outsider who isn't a horrible person could actually get something done.
You forgot that the investigation has branched out to obstruction because of Trump's actions, and for no other reason. Do you somehow know that there isn't a crime regarding the Russian connection, or that "the other side" has given up on that? That's crazy and I wonder why you think that. I think I will wait for the investigation to finish before that has been determined.
It's hilarious to recall your endless parroting of Ben-Gazi and the absolute necessity to go through 5 investigations and dozens of committees to find the crimes that MUST be there...SOMEWHERE! and then, this.
Tell me: are you ever going to get sick of being so blatantly and foolishly wrong about everything? You used to be a smart, rational person--even in disagreement. For some strange reason, I have faith that you will turn it back around. Lordy knows that this strange political climate has done a number on all of us, and some seem to have suffered worse than others.
For now, I'll just remember your fist-bashing over Ben Gazi and Obama golfing every time you try to open your mouth about the left's "insanity and hypocrisy and grasping for straws" whenever it comes to Trump.
Someone admits a felony on national TV? lolYeah it's either what happens when an outsider beats the system or it's what happens when someone admits to a felony on national TV. lol.
Also you have no idea if they have found evidence of a crime or not. Speaking of that sort of thing though, you previously described all these anonymously sourced reports as 'lunacy'. Now that a large portion of them have been confirmed do you want to revise your statement at all?
Perhaps you'll be so kind as to link to some of my "endless parroting of Ben-Gazi and the absolute necessity to go through 5 investigations and dozens of committees to find the crimes that MUST be there" for us all to enjoy. Shouldn't take long, what with it being endless and you having the boundless energy that Trump Derangement Syndrome begets. As far as Obama golfing, my only issues with that were (a) the mainstream media's utter hypocrisy after skewering Bush for same and (b) his failure to take Congress along with him.You forgot that the investigation has branched out to obstruction because of Trump's actions, and for no other reason. Do you somehow know that there isn't a crime regarding the Russian connection, or that "the other side" has given up on that? That's crazy and I wonder why you think that. I think I will wait for the investigation to finish before that has been determined.
It's hilarious to recall your endless parroting of Ben-Gazi and the absolute necessity to go through 5 investigations and dozens of committees to find the crimes that MUST be there...SOMEWHERE! and then, this.
Tell me: are you ever going to get sick of being so blatantly and foolishly wrong about everything? You used to be a smart, rational person--even in disagreement. For some strange reason, I have faith that you will turn it back around. Lordy knows that this strange political climate has done a number on all of us, and some seem to have suffered worse than others.
For now, I'll just remember your fist-bashing over Ben Gazi and Obama golfing every time you try to open your mouth about the left's "insanity and hypocrisy and grasping for straws" whenever it comes to Trump.
It went well beyond the hacking & leaking of DNC & Podesta emails. It was an active propaganda effort via social media & the internet, just as Comey described.
Your dodge is clever, I'll grant that, but the idea that the true interests of the American people & the Kremlin are congruent is truly absurd. MAGA definitely isn't what they want. Quite the contrary.
You've certainly aligned yourself with that reasoning.
Is the narrative no longer that Trump was controlled by Russia and now it's that he obstructed justice in the investigation that showed he wasn't being controlled by Russia?
That was never the narrative but at least you are now current on the issue. Perhaps now you'll start giving a fuck.
Ooops...
ivwshane:
...It appears they all fed information to trump to buy into pro Russian policies...
...So it appears trump was the mark, which according to a lot of people, was because he apparently takes the opinion of the people who spoke to him last. Having been surrounded by Russian useful idiots, trump was bombarded with pro Russian policies, of which he adopted...
In summary, Russia found some useful idiots too plant pro Russian policies into a puppet....
pro Russian policies are still in...
It wouldn't be as fun if you weren't such an ignorant, partisan hack. Let me guess: puppets aren't controlled?
Oops...looks like you aren't too smart.
Reading is hard, isn't it? My post specifically says trump didn't collude with Russia but rather he was an unknowing idiot used by russia and that was my personal theory.
Logical evidence presented that statement about refutation was trueAnticipated the deflection. Hence the question posed "Let me guess: puppets aren't controlled?"
Original statement that you refuted:
Is the narrative no longer that Trump was controlled by Russia and now it's that he obstructed justice in the investigation that showed he wasn't being controlled by Russia?
Your statements prior (condensed and bold added, but quoted in full above):
...In summary, Russia found some useful idiots too plant pro Russian policies into a puppet.
And because thinking, obviously, isn't your strong suit:
pup·pet
ˈpəpət/
noun
noun: puppet; plural noun: puppets
a movable model of a person or animal that is used in entertainment and is typically moved either by strings controlled from above or by a hand inside it.
synonyms: marionette; More
hand puppet, finger puppet
"a show with puppets"
a person, party, or state under the control of another person, group, or power.
"he was little more than a puppet of his aides"
synonyms: pawn, tool, instrument, cat's paw, creature, dupe; More
How am I wrong that the narrative has changed (at least from you, specifically)...? I know, I know, reading is hard. So is being consistent. But, you'll find some way to relieve the dissonance and live in your little bubble.
That being said, I am all for investigating any Russian ties that Trump may have. But, like others in this thread, I think it's more an issue of him being a narcissist and lacking impulse control than him being a traitor. I just find it humorous how people are losing their minds trying to find anything or any way to get him and the shifting blame makes that obvious.
Attempt to deflectLol! Look at you try to cover all your bases.
First off, I said that was never the narrative and unless your original post was originally directed at me and only me, it's still not the narrative. Just because I think that's what's going on doesn't mean that's what most people think is happening. Then again maybe you hold my opinion higher than what it is, some random post on the internet.
Lastly, the current narrative is that trump obstructed justice. Period. Whether he's a puppet or colluded is an unknown and will hopefully be answered by the investigation.
Further evidence...If making a cogent argument is covering all of my bases, then yes.
No, it is not the narrative now; it has changed. That was my point. I actually give you less credit than that; you didn't come up with the controlled argument all by yourself, you were just parroting the narrative-de-jour.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...-today-rt-kremlin-media-vladimir-putin-213833
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/19/democrats-overplaying-the-russia-card-commentary.html
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russian-plot-to-control-trump-through-his-advisers-j2mlfgqhk
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/07/missile-attack-brings-d-c-back-to-normal.html
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/331...to-use-manafort-and-flynn-to-influence-trump/
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/puppet-no-puppet-youre-the-puppet
You just happened to claim that I was wrong and that wasn't the narrative and it was a simple case of proving that it was (at least to you).
Additional attempt to deflect through ignorance or deceptionTry again. The only narrative is that you will read into things whatever you want. None of your links push that narrative and most are simply asking what's the reason for the behavior.
Further proof of evidence already presented (i.e. Reading for Dummies)"The Kremlin’s Candidate"
"...For months, dating back to the doomed Hillary Clinton campaign, the party's most enduring allegation against Trump was that he had been "compromised" by the Russian state, and therefore ought to be seen as a "puppet," "stooge," or "pawn" of the dastardly Putin.
This meme dominated the presidential contest, and the resulting furor has engrossed much of the Democratic rank-and-file ever since, such that exercised liberal activists now routinely show up to town hall meetings accusing Trump of "treason" and screaming for retaliatory action against his purported foreign suitors.
Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA) appeared to reflect a wider sentiment in the party when she suggested last month that elucidating Trump's sinister Russian 'ties' ought to be the "only" issue Democrats pursue: all else flows from it."
"Russian spies plotted to manipulate Donald Trump through his senior campaign advisers during the election campaign, it was alleged last night" Behind a pay-wall, so we won't count this one
"Because from now on, the narrative that the president is some kind of puppet of Russian President Vladimir Putin is going to be much harder to promote. An independent President Trump is harder to completely tear down than a man supposedly being remote-controlled by the Kremlin... no matter what he does."
"It was one of many examples that people at the pinnacle of the Russian government seem to have some hold over Trump, some understanding of him that triggers his most impulsive and transgressive instincts. It’s like a paramour who has some kind of hold over a person or ability to manipulate them which is difficult or impossible to understand from the outside."
"Russian officials wanted to use Manafort and Flynn to influence Trump"
Non-sequitur and avoidance of evidence presented.You've certainly aligned yourself with that reasoning.
Not a dodge; you asked why they would do that and I wildly speculated (and admitted it as such) a scenario where Russia could be helping Trump without his knowledge or consent. I agree with you that Russia definitely does NOT have our best interests at heart, so we can agree to be very skeptical of their motives. Both Russia and Americans can be against something for different reasons.
I don't remember anything definite beyond Podesta's emails, which is why I used them as an example. Not saying there isn't proof of other interference; just that those e-mails were the first to come to mind.
Sigh...no, just no.
Original statement.
Refutation of original statement.
Illustration of statement supported by person claiming statement it false.
Refutation of illustration
Logical evidence presented that statement about refutation was true
Attempt to deflect
Further evidence
Additional attempt to deflect through ignorance or deception
Further proof of evidence already presented (i.e. Reading for Dummies)
Non-sequitur and avoidance of evidence presented.
Not a dodge; you asked why they would do that and I wildly speculated (and admitted it as such) a scenario where Russia could be helping Trump without his knowledge or consent. I agree with you that Russia definitely does NOT have our best interests at heart, so we can agree to be very skeptical of their motives. Both Russia and Americans can be against something for different reasons.
I don't remember anything definite beyond Podesta's emails, which is why I used them as an example. Not saying there isn't proof of other interference; just that those e-mails were the first to come to mind.
I agree but emotionally I want him gone.
I would suggest that when the Russians & Trump voters are for the same thing, Trump, that one of the parties is not thinking clearly about who they're traveling with. It's not the Russians.
I think Trump's consent to Russian help is obvious. He asked for it & used their ammo ruthlessly. Even that doesn't really make him complicit other than after the fact.
Special counsel Robert S. Mueller III is investigating the finances and business dealings of Jared Kushner, President Trump’s son-in-law and adviser, as part of the investigation into Russia’s interference in the 2016 presidential election, according to U.S. officials familiar with the matter.
FBI agents and federal prosecutors have also been examining the financial dealings of other Trump associates, including former national security adviser Michael Flynn, former campaign chairman Paul Manafort and Carter Page, who was listed as a foreign-policy adviser for the campaign.
The Washington Post previously reported that investigators were scrutinizing meetings that Kushner held with Russians in December — first with Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak, and then with Sergey Gorkov, the head of a state-owned Russian development bank. At the time of that report, it was not clear that the FBI was investigating Kushner’s business dealings.
The officials who described the financial focus of the investigation spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.
At the December meeting with Kislyak, Kushner suggested establishing a secure communications line between Trump officials and the Kremlin at a Russian diplomatic facility, according to U.S. officials who reviewed intelligence reports describing Kislyak’s account.
pecial counsel Robert Mueller has brought 13 lawyers on board to handle the Russia investigation, with plans to hire more, according to his spokesman Peter Carr.
Mueller has assembled a high-powered team of top investigators and leading experts, including seasoned attorneys who've represented major American companies in court and who have worked on cases ranging from Watergate to the Enron fraud scandal.
Among them are James Quarles and Jeannie Rhee, both of whom Mueller brought over from his old firm, WilmerHale. He's also hired Andrew Weissmann, who led the Enron investigation.
"That is a great, great team of complete professionals, so let's let him do his job," former independent counsel Kenneth Starr, who investigated President Bill Clinton in the 1990s, told ABC News.
While only five attorneys have been identified, concerns have come up over the political leanings of Quarles, Rhee and Weissmann. They have donated overwhelmingly to Democrats, totaling more than $53,000 since 1988, according to a CNN analysis of Federal Election Commission records.
Widening probe
The special counsel's investigators are looking into questions of Russian interference in last year's election, and plan to speak to senior intelligence officials, a source familiar with the matter told CNN.
Mueller is also investigating whether President Donald Trump attempted to obstruct justice, The Washington Post reported Wednesday.
The Post reported that the interviews represent a widening of the probe to include looking into whether the President obstructed justice in suggesting to his former FBI Director James Comey that Comey drop the investigation into Michael Flynn, Trump's former national security adviser, as well as for his firing of Comey.
Mueller's investigators have asked for information and will talk to Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats and National Security Agency Director Adm. Mike Rogers, according to a source, who said they have also sought information from recently retired NSA Deputy Director Richard Ledgett. Coats and Rogers have testified that they were not pressured by the Trump administration.
The interviews are some of the first indications of the efforts of Mueller's newly assembled team.
Ultimately, it would be up to Mueller to decide whether there is enough evidence to recommend pursuing charges on any part of the investigation.
Kind of interesting that while Trump and team are crying about the special counsel, they are staffing up even further.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/16/politics/robert-mueller-special-counsel-lawyers/index.html
After 7 months of investigations & committee hearings about my "collusion with the Russians," nobody has been able to show any proof. Sad!
I am being investigated for firing the FBI Director by the man who told me to fire the FBI Director! Witch Hunt
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/875682853585129472?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
And Donnie is apparently intent on being hoisted by his own petard with these tweets.
So is that an admission of guilt? Are you saying there is proof out there? I mean Mueller's team has to be toasting every time he tweets by now! I said yesterday maybe Twitter will be used against him by Mueller, now I'm about 95% certain it will.
EDIT: He continues on..
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/875701471999864833
Are you blaming Rosenstein or Mueller?
Perhaps an outsider who isn't a horrible person could actually get something done.
I cant say I disagree with that. Trump issue is not that he is an outsider, its that he is a horrible person.
As far as "no evidence of a crime" I disagree though. Maybe not Trump himself, but there is evidence against several campaign members... And they aren't exactly operating without his blessing. The FBI doesn't spend 150+ agents on investigating "fake news" . They found stuff and dramatically expanded the investigation to 150+ agents and staff and that was before Comey got fired.
There is a "there" there. They just don't comment on specifics until the investigation is done. Especially at this high of a level of govt.
I cant say I disagree with that. Trump issue is not that he is an outsider, its that he is a horrible person.
As far as "no evidence of a crime" I disagree though. Maybe not Trump himself, but there is evidence against several campaign members... And they aren't exactly operating without his blessing. The FBI doesn't spend 150+ agents on investigating "fake news" . They found stuff and dramatically expanded the investigation to 150+ agents and staff and that was before Comey got fired.
There is a "there" there. They just don't comment on specifics until the investigation is done. Especially at this high of a level of govt.
Trump confirms he's under investigation! LOL!
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...38099-trump-confirms-he-is-being-investigated
Sounds like he is attacking Rosenstein. He is his own worst enemy. Just cannot see him holding up under the pressure and the investigations. He's going to deliver his impeachment on a platter. Lose his shit, fire Rosenstein, put a lackey in his place who will fire Mueller. Nixon repeated and impeachment will follow with another obstruction case.
How is he this gloriously braindead?! Shouldn't be a surprise I guess given his behaviour, just can't stop marveling that the POTUS is a complete moron melting down in public.
Trump publicaly asked Russia to hack Hillary's email. Sounds like collusion to me.I would suggest that when the Russians & Trump voters are for the same thing, Trump, that one of the parties is not thinking clearly about who they're traveling with. It's not the Russians.
I think Trump's consent to Russian help is obvious. He asked for it & used their ammo ruthlessly. Even that doesn't really make him complicit other than after the fact.
I cant say I disagree with that. Trump issue is not that he is an outsider, its that he is a horrible person.
As far as "no evidence of a crime" I disagree though. Maybe not Trump himself, but there is evidence against several campaign members... And they aren't exactly operating without his blessing. The FBI doesn't spend 150+ agents on investigating "fake news" . They found stuff and dramatically expanded the investigation to 150+ agents and staff and that was before Comey got fired.
There is a "there" there. They just don't comment on specifics until the investigation is done. Especially at this high of a level of govt.