War brewing in Gaza

[ThePresence]

Well, the Gaza disengagement really worked out well, didn't it? 51 rockets have hit the Israeli town of Sderot since Thursday. 8 longer range rockets have hit the city of Ashkelon. In total, over 90 rockets have hit Israel since Wednsday. Israel has been responding with limited airstrikes targeting rocket launching cells, but it has not been very effective. Israel is finally waking up and massing tanks and artillery on the Gaza border. However, this will be no simple operation. Going into Gaza today is not what it used to be. Hamas has been arming and training for this situation even before they seized power. This will be all-out war, and they are ready for it. Israel should not take them lightly, and I don't think they will. It's time for Israel to say screw world opinion and protect it's citizens. It's quite obvious that Hamas is not interested in peace, and is bringing death and destruction into the backyards of the Gaza strip. It boggles the mind how Israeli politicians can still be discussing additional concessions of territory in light on the enormous blunder of pulling out of Gaza. WTG Sharon.

 

[Moonbeam]

Oppress people long enough and they will kill you. Tell people your god gave you something their god gave them and get ready for fun. Israel will not stand against the will if the people of the world. It's only a matter of time. Israel has long ago said screw the world. And the world will screw Israel back. You have created a prison in your own country for other people and can't hide that fact. Israel is wrong to do that and will therefore lose. The hate of others is the hate of the self and self hate brings self destruction. There is no escape from that fact. We create the monsters that haunt our psyches.

 

[GrGr]

The Israelis are reenacting their own history, only this time with them in the role of oppressors outside the walls of a ghetto they created.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: GrGr
The Israelis are reenacting their own history, only this time with them in the role of oppressors outside the walls of a ghetto they created.

What you say is true. The Nazi's built walls to protect themselves from the Jews who were bombing the crap out of the German civillians. It was getting to a point when the German mothers were afraid to send their kids to school on a bus because the Jews might blow them up. The Nazis also gave the Jews their own territory in an attempt to make peace with them, but the Jews would have none of it and sent dozens of rockets daily into German towns. Don't forget that the Jews also massacred groups of Germans before Germany was ever a country, so the Jewish claim that they were doing it because of German statehood was proven false. Your point is taken, thanks for the history lesson.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Well, the Gaza disengagement really worked out well, didn't it? 51 rockets have hit the Israeli town of Sderot since Thursday. 8 longer range rockets have hit the city of Ashkelon. In total, over 90 rockets have hit Israel since Wednsday. Israel has been responding with limited airstrikes targeting rocket launching cells, but it has not been very effective. Israel is finally waking up and massing tanks and artillery on the Gaza border. However, this will be no simple operation. Going into Gaza today is not what it used to be. Hamas has been arming and training for this situation even before they seized power. This will be all-out war, and they are ready for it. Israel should not take them lightly, and I don't think they will. It's time for Israel to say screw world opinion and protect it's citizens. It's quite obvious that Hamas is not interested in peace, and is bringing death and destruction into the backyards of the Gaza strip. It boggles the mind how Israeli politicians can still be discussing additional concessions of territory in light on the enormous blunder of pulling out of Gaza. WTG Sharon.

I guess things will look that way to you when you are bias and only see it from Israel's POV. No need arguing over Israel v. Palestinians again. TBH, I have no sympathy for either side.

 

[lozina]

The Israel/Palestine situation is like two children getting in a fight.

They both just flail at each other at any opportunity but neither wants to be hit last. Even when the mother comes and sternly lectures them to immediately cease, the child hit last always tries to find a way to sneak another hit at the other, which then sparks another bout of arm flailing. Neither child admits they started the argument and neither want to be the last one hit.

So I'm still waiting for either party to finally grow up, take some responsibility and even if they were hit last to finally sit down for a SERIOUS peace discussion. Every peace discussion up to now has been another display of childishness on both sides. With promises made while fingers kept crossed behind their backs as they glare at each other eagerly waiting for another opportunity to make an aggressive move.

 

[piasabird]

All these weapons in Gaza are flowing through Syria and may even be coming from Iran. So you would have to control Syria to stop the flow of arms. The airport in Syria is often used to fly in terrorists from around the middle east. This whole area is a hornets nest.

 

[lupi]

Knock down west wall. Open hole in east wall.
Start bulldozers running from east to west and allow arabs to care for arabs......oh wait, we've already seen that they don't care about each other unless it serves a political purpose.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: piasabird
All these weapons in Gaza are flowing through Syria and may even be coming from Iran. So you would have to control Syria to stop the flow of arms. The airport in Syria is often used to fly in terrorists from around the middle east. This whole area is a hornets nest.

yes because Syria has teleportation technology to get around the fact that they dont share a land border and Israel has a naval blockade off Gaza's coastline which even stops fishing boats from passing.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: GrGr
The Israelis are reenacting their own history, only this time with them in the role of oppressors outside the walls of a ghetto they created.

What you say is true. The Nazi's built walls to protect themselves from the Jews who were bombing the crap out of the German civillians. It was getting to a point when the German mothers were afraid to send their kids to school on a bus because the Jews might blow them up. The Nazis also gave the Jews their own territory in an attempt to make peace with them, but the Jews would have none of it and sent dozens of rockets daily into German towns. Don't forget that the Jews also massacred groups of Germans before Germany was ever a country, so the Jewish claim that they were doing it because of German statehood was proven false. Your point is taken, thanks for the history lesson.

Ghettos and Pogroms have a far longer and broader history than Nazi Germany. Your simile misses the obvious point that the Palestinians are being pushed out by people taking over their country. The Brits had no right to give away Palestine to the Zionists in the first place. Now they, courtesy of their overwhelming military might, are rounding up and walling in the Palestinians into ghettos and nibbling away daily with settlements to increase the size of Israel. Obviously there is a reaction. De Gaulle said Israel would use exactly this tactic - expand and then decry any reaction as terrorism, and use the terrorism excuse for further crackdowns.

 

[Lemon law]

Thanks for the history lesson, ThePresence. So because there are some Palestinian terrorists in Gaza for some inexplicable reason given how generous Israel has been, Israel will rush in with tanks and guns killing the innocent and guilty alike with the guilty better equipped to escape. In other words, the exact same tactics that Israel has been trying for the past sixty years. And the exact same tactics that have failed to advance the cause of peace for the past sixty years. While Israel claims to be free any sin when the Palestinians have been robbed of their land and made third class citizens in the land of their birth. Nor will I say that the Arabs and Palestinians are free from sin either, there is no shortages of injustices on all sides.

But thanks for that history lesson, ThePresence, while its often said that two wrongs don't make a right, maybe 153,271 wrongs might add up to a right. I have no idea where I came up with 153,271, its probably understating
the exact number, but who is counting?

Yes please,The Presence, tell us exactly how many wrongs it takes to add up to a right. And here in recent history, we are supposed to be having this mid-east peace conference in Annapolis, the same peace conference that already table the question of Israeli settlements on disputed land, and the same conference that tries to pretend only the good Palestinians under Abbas in the West bank are the only representatives of the Palestinian people.

Yes let us kill the innocent so we can have peace. Kill for peace, kill for peace, lets us have more injustices because we don't have enough already. War is peace. Peace is war, no one should keep the score.

Isn't insanity trying the same failed tactic over and over thinking there will be a different outcome?

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: GrGr
The Israelis are reenacting their own history, only this time with them in the role of oppressors outside the walls of a ghetto they created.

What you say is true. The Nazi's built walls to protect themselves from the Jews who were bombing the crap out of the German civillians. It was getting to a point when the German mothers were afraid to send their kids to school on a bus because the Jews might blow them up. The Nazis also gave the Jews their own territory in an attempt to make peace with them, but the Jews would have none of it and sent dozens of rockets daily into German towns. Don't forget that the Jews also massacred groups of Germans before Germany was ever a country, so the Jewish claim that they were doing it because of German statehood was proven false. Your point is taken, thanks for the history lesson.

Ghettos and Pogroms have a far longer and broader history than Nazi Germany. Your simile misses the obvious point that the Palestinians are being pushed out by people taking over their country. The Brits had no right to give away Palestine to the Zionists in the first place. Now they, courtesy of their overwhelming military might, are rounding up and walling in the Palestinians into ghettos and nibbling away daily with settlements to increase the size of Israel. Obviously there is a reaction. De Gaulle said Israel would use exactly this tactic - expand and then decry any reaction as terrorism, and use the terrorism excuse for further crackdowns.

I'm aware of the history of ghettos, I'm actually writing a book on the subject. Britain didn't give the country to anyone, they left in middle of the night and the UN decided to partition the country. The Arabs chose to attack. Israel built the wall to protect itself from the suicide bombers which were hitting Israeli cities. It actually worked. If Israel was so interested in building settlements to "slowly nibble away land" they would not have given Gaza away.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Thanks for the history lesson, ThePresence. So because there are some Palestinian terrorists in Gaza for some inexplicable reason given how generous Israel has been, Israel will rush in with tanks and guns killing the innocent and guilty alike with the guilty better equipped to escape. In other words, the exact same tactics that Israel has been trying for the past sixty years. And the exact same tactics that have failed to advance the cause of peace for the past sixty years. While Israel claims to be free any sin when the Palestinians have been robbed of their land and made third class citizens in the land of their birth. Nor will I say that the Arabs and Palestinians are free from sin either, there is no shortages of injustices on all sides.

But thanks for that history lesson, ThePresence, while its often said that two wrongs don't make a right, maybe 153,271 wrongs might add up to a right. I have no idea where I came up with 153,271, its probably understating
the exact number, but who is counting?

Yes please,The Presence, tell us exactly how many wrongs it takes to add up to a right. And here in recent history, we are supposed to be having this mid-east peace conference in Annapolis, the same peace conference that already table the question of Israeli settlements on disputed land, and the same conference that tries to pretend only the good Palestinians under Abbas in the West bank are the only representatives of the Palestinian people.

Yes let us kill the innocent so we can have peace. Kill for peace, kill for peace, lets us have more injustices because we don't have enough already. War is peace. Peace is war, no one should keep the score.

Isn't insanity trying the same failed tactic over and over thinking there will be a different outcome?

Some Terrorists in Gaza? They have a Hamas government. I find it interesting though that your concern for the innocent, who will suffer, is reserved for the Palestinian innocent. Are their innocents more important? 90 rockets fell in the last two days on Israeli towns. Where is your outrage?

 

[lupi]

Don't recall "Britain" giving anything to anyone. Pretty sure it was a UN resolution.

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: lozina
The Israel/Palestine situation is like two children getting in a fight.

They both just flail at each other at any opportunity but neither wants to be hit last. Even when the mother comes and sternly lectures them to immediately cease, the child hit last always tries to find a way to sneak another hit at the other, which then sparks another bout of arm flailing. Neither child admits they started the argument and neither want to be the last one hit.

So I'm still waiting for either party to finally grow up, take some responsibility and even if they were hit last to finally sit down for a SERIOUS peace discussion. Every peace discussion up to now has been another display of childishness on both sides. With promises made while fingers kept crossed behind their backs as they glare at each other eagerly waiting for another opportunity to make an aggressive move.

hahah where in real life do the children grow up and sit down for a serious peace discussion? What happens is that they finally find some opportunity to go at it where no adult is there to break it off. Then one child pounds the crap out of the other. Then the weaker child learns a lesson to not mess with the stronger child. I say let them go at it, all out war till one side finally wins. blood on the streets, death everywhere till they finally have used up all the fight within them. Worked for Japan and Germany.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: GrGr
The Israelis are reenacting their own history, only this time with them in the role of oppressors outside the walls of a ghetto they created.

What you say is true. The Nazi's built walls to protect themselves from the Jews who were bombing the crap out of the German civillians. It was getting to a point when the German mothers were afraid to send their kids to school on a bus because the Jews might blow them up. The Nazis also gave the Jews their own territory in an attempt to make peace with them, but the Jews would have none of it and sent dozens of rockets daily into German towns. Don't forget that the Jews also massacred groups of Germans before Germany was ever a country, so the Jewish claim that they were doing it because of German statehood was proven false. Your point is taken, thanks for the history lesson.

Ghettos and Pogroms have a far longer and broader history than Nazi Germany. Your simile misses the obvious point that the Palestinians are being pushed out by people taking over their country. The Brits had no right to give away Palestine to the Zionists in the first place. Now they, courtesy of their overwhelming military might, are rounding up and walling in the Palestinians into ghettos and nibbling away daily with settlements to increase the size of Israel. Obviously there is a reaction. De Gaulle said Israel would use exactly this tactic - expand and then decry any reaction as terrorism, and use the terrorism excuse for further crackdowns.

I'm aware of the history of ghettos, I'm actually writing a book on the subject. Britain didn't give the country to anyone, they left in middle of the night and the UN decided to partition the country. The Arabs chose to attack. Israel built the wall to protect itself from the suicide bombers which were hitting Israeli cities. It actually worked. If Israel was so interested in building settlements to "slowly nibble away land" they would not have given Gaza away.

Interesting then that you chose to read my post as a reference to Nazi Germany. Let me guess you thought of the Warzaw ghetto, right?

As for my comment re: the British I was thinking more of the Balfour Declaration:

From Wiki:

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated November 2, 1917) was a classified formal statement of policy by the British government on the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of World War I.

The letter stated the position, agreed to at a British Cabinet meeting on October 31, 1917, that the British government supported Zionist plans for a National home for the Jewish people within Palestine? with the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities there.

The statement was issued through the efforts of Chaim Weizmann and Nahum Sokolow, the principal Zionist leaders based in London but, as they had asked for the reconstitution of Palestine as ?the? Jewish national home, the Declaration fell short of Zionist expectations.[1]

The "Balfour Declaration" was later incorporated into the Sèvres peace treaty with Turkey and the Mandate for Palestine. The declaration was made in a letter from Arthur James Balfour (Foreign Secretary) to Lord Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation, a private Zionist organization. The document is kept at the British Library.

The Arab decision to "attack" was classic blowback in action.

Gaza was very generous.

And isn't it remarkable how hard Israel leans on some UN decisions and deliberately ignores, and is in direct violation of, others.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: GrGr
The Israelis are reenacting their own history, only this time with them in the role of oppressors outside the walls of a ghetto they created.

What you say is true. The Nazi's built walls to protect themselves from the Jews who were bombing the crap out of the German civillians. It was getting to a point when the German mothers were afraid to send their kids to school on a bus because the Jews might blow them up. The Nazis also gave the Jews their own territory in an attempt to make peace with them, but the Jews would have none of it and sent dozens of rockets daily into German towns. Don't forget that the Jews also massacred groups of Germans before Germany was ever a country, so the Jewish claim that they were doing it because of German statehood was proven false. Your point is taken, thanks for the history lesson.

Of course, what actually happened is that the lands of Germany were occupied for millenia by the Jews, but foreign powers created a state for the Aryan people in the midst of the Jewish lands, and for a few reason armed it to be the most powerful state in the region, for reasons including wanting a place for the Aryans to live, wanting to make up for how the Aryans had been mistreated after WWI, and especially wanting to establish a proxy state in the resource-rich region.

When the Jews foolishly resisted the Aryan dominance, of course this meant they were terrorisrs and the Aryans were right to defend themselves by oppressing the Jews.

 

[Exterous]

Maybe I have missed something, but hasn't Israel given a fair bit of territory to what is now Hamas? Which is listed by many countries (UK, US< Aus, Jordan...) as a terrorist country. I thought this had been viewed as an improvment in relations as Israel had never done that before? So Hamas then hits Israel with rockets? That strikes me a bit like poking a sleeping bear with a 6" sharp stick

But I have been off this subject for a while so I welcome input and responses

 

[bamacre]

Until we fix some of our own damn problems here at home, I really don't give a shit about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Our fixation on fixing the rest of the world has left our own country broken.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: GrGr
Interesting then that you chose to read my post as a reference to Nazi Germany. Let me guess you thought of the Warzaw ghetto, right?

I thought of Nazi Germany because people who make comments similiar to yours are generally referring to Nazi Germany.

And isn't it remarkable how hard Israel leans on some UN decisions and deliberately ignores, and is in direct violation of, others.

I just mentioned the the UN decision to show that it wasn't a British decision. The Balfour declaration has little to do with what happened when the British left the country.

 

[ThePresence]

Look, we can argue the history for pages and pages (and we have in the past).
Regardless of whatever version of history you wish to believe, the bottom line is this.

Israel exists and is not going anywhere (unless you believe Ahmadinejad).
Israel, like any other country has a fundamental duty to protect it's citizens.
Rockets are falling on Israeli towns.
What would you have Israel do?
Sit back and do nothing?

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Well, the Gaza disengagement really worked out well, didn't it? 51 rockets have hit the Israeli town of Sderot since Thursday. 8 longer range rockets have hit the city of Ashkelon. In total, over 90 rockets have hit Israel since Wednsday. Israel has been responding with limited airstrikes targeting rocket launching cells, but it has not been very effective. Israel is finally waking up and massing tanks and artillery on the Gaza border. However, this will be no simple operation. Going into Gaza today is not what it used to be. Hamas has been arming and training for this situation even before they seized power. This will be all-out war, and they are ready for it. Israel should not take them lightly, and I don't think they will. It's time for Israel to say screw world opinion and protect it's citizens. It's quite obvious that Hamas is not interested in peace, and is bringing death and destruction into the backyards of the Gaza strip. It boggles the mind how Israeli politicians can still be discussing additional concessions of territory in light on the enormous blunder of pulling out of Gaza. WTG Sharon.

Hamas has been arming and training for this situation even before they seized power.
Factually incorrect. Hamas did not seize power. They were the legitimately elected government of the Palestine state. The West Bank is ruled by a government that "seized power"
I can't believe you didn't know that.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Look, we can argue the history for pages and pages (and we have in the past).
Regardless of whatever version of history you wish to believe, the bottom line is this.

Israel exists and is not going anywhere (unless you believe Ahmadinejad).
Israel, like any other country has a fundamental duty to protect it's citizens.
Rockets are falling on Israeli towns.
What would you have Israel do?
Sit back and do nothing?

Israel has created a monster. There is little now anybody can do. You make your bed and have to lie in it.

Every new born child is a Jew or a Palestinian and every other thing. Hate disappears when it's not refreshed.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Well, the Gaza disengagement really worked out well, didn't it? 51 rockets have hit the Israeli town of Sderot since Thursday. 8 longer range rockets have hit the city of Ashkelon. In total, over 90 rockets have hit Israel since Wednsday. Israel has been responding with limited airstrikes targeting rocket launching cells, but it has not been very effective. Israel is finally waking up and massing tanks and artillery on the Gaza border. However, this will be no simple operation. Going into Gaza today is not what it used to be. Hamas has been arming and training for this situation even before they seized power. This will be all-out war, and they are ready for it. Israel should not take them lightly, and I don't think they will. It's time for Israel to say screw world opinion and protect it's citizens. It's quite obvious that Hamas is not interested in peace, and is bringing death and destruction into the backyards of the Gaza strip. It boggles the mind how Israeli politicians can still be discussing additional concessions of territory in light on the enormous blunder of pulling out of Gaza. WTG Sharon.

Hamas has been arming and training for this situation even before they seized power.
Factually incorrect. Hamas did not seize power. They were the legitimately elected government of the Palestine state. The West Bank is ruled by a government that "seized power"

You are reading too much into a word. I am referring to when they overthrew the PA in Gaza.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Look, we can argue the history for pages and pages (and we have in the past).
Regardless of whatever version of history you wish to believe, the bottom line is this.

Israel exists and is not going anywhere (unless you believe Ahmadinejad).
Israel, like any other country has a fundamental duty to protect it's citizens.
Rockets are falling on Israeli towns.
What would you have Israel do?
Sit back and do nothing?

Israel has created a monster. There is little now anybody can do. You make your bed and have to lie in it.

Every new born child is a Jew or a Palestinian and every other thing. Hate disappears when it's not refreshed.

Hate disappears when everybody is dead.