War brewing in Gaza

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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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The point being, Gaza is just one front and just one of many places fairly short range missiles can be fired into Israel from. Because these missiles are cheap and easy to make,
given the hatreds, means that many will be deployed. But at the same time, the facts that these missiles lack much a descent guidance system means most of the damage will be
to farm fields and the like. They may land somewhere, but exactly where they land is random. Occasionally they may hit something more vital, but as of yet, the physical damage is less than the terror value. Because the damage radius, with conventional explosives is fairly small.

The problem for Israel, who has no lack of precision guided weapons is that by the time they get to the point where the missiles were fired from, those firing at Israel are long gone. So instead they are left punishing the innocent civilians who were not engaged in hostile actions even though, from the air, the damage Israel can do is very considerable.

But the metrics of this conflict have changed greatly since the mid 1990's when all the Plaestinians had were rocks and bottles to use against Israeli tanks. Because very effective anti tanks weapons are now filtering into the hands of Hamas and Hezbollah. As Israel found to its surprise when they tried to invade Southern Lebanon some 18 months ago.

Because the politics of intimidation only works under two conditions. (1) You can inflict so much damage that the opposition dares not attack you. (2) That you have the boots on the ground presence to receive the terrorists the intimidated population will turn over to prevent losing what they have. Which is the other problem, the residents have nothing of value to lose because Gaza is only marginally more habitual than the Sinai desert no one wants. So Israel is reduced to intimidation from the air, exactly the same tactic the terrorists are using.

But its not rocket science to predict that in another decade or so, the missiles will have longer ranges, perhaps some sort of guidance system, and that at least low tech biological and chemical weapons will start to be used as war heads. And Israel will need an exponentially increasing sized buffer zone as launching points all over will come to be used. Including perhaps using sea based launching points from small boats. And buffer zones simply too large for a nation of some six million people to maintain.

On the Arab streets, one would have to look under the belly of snakes to find any entity more popular than Israel. Around 96% either want Israel gone or pushed back to their pre 1967 war borders. The Arab street may accept Israel but not past its pre 1967 borders. And flush with oil money and with a tradition of giving to the needy, both Hamas and Hezbollah have funding. And while leaders of Arab States are reluctant to take on Israel, Hezbollah has captured the aspirations by finally striking a blow in Lebanon.

So at this point, at least in my mind, Israel is at a cross roads as its former 60 year strategy is now visibly becoming questionable even though Israeli military hegemony remains in tact. Israel can try to increase the intimidation which has visible failed in Lebanon, or they can finally go to the peace table while their position is as strong as it is. Which is the only thing that can ramp down the hatreds. And when I say go to the peace table, I mean with something less than we get everything Israel formerly demanded. Even Arifat came very close to inking a deal, but he absolutely would not sign away the right to return that still drives much of this conflict. As it is, if the Annapolis peace conference yields nothing, Abbas and Fatah will likely be so weakened that Hamas will end up being the democratically elected government of the West Bank also.
 

jckm

Junior Member
Jun 13, 2007
6
0
0
Hamas will end up being the democratically elected government of the West Bank

I don't think the Palestinian are that stupid to shoot themself in the foot twice. The international support will be gone (aids and political supports), and it will be hell In Palestine and Isreal, more so in Palestine due to less pressure to stop any Isrealis offenses against Hamas.

And they can't rely on their Arab brothers for aids, just look at the Arab summit, they pledge 2.7 billion in aid that never materialize.


Israel can try to increase the intimidation which has visible failed in Lebanon, or they can finally go to the peace table

I don't see any point in going to the peace table with Fatah when Hamas is running Gaza. Everytime there is a so call peace table, Hamas will find a way to stop it through suicide bombers or rocket attacks.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
As an Israeli apologist, jckm recites the current Israeli party line of might makes right.

And then goes fully delusional in stating----I don't see any point in going to the peace table with Fatah when Hamas is running Gaza. Everytime there is a so call peace table, Hamas will find a way to stop it through suicide bombers or rocket attacks.

When the clear Israeli choice is to deal with Fatah or Hamas. Israel might have a hope of getting a deal with Fatah, but if Israel fails to help Fatah deliver something positive and soon,
its going to be a no brainer alas poor Yorick for Fatah. And then Israel will be dealing with far more militant groups like Hamas because more moderate ones can't deliver anything to advance the cause of peace.

This whole matter is not like some sports contest where one side can win by running out the clock. With an as time expires metric, one set of sports fans will be elated at the outcome and the other set must content themselves with a wait until next year.

The point being this will be a perpetual game on until some fair settlement is reached. And Israel is not willing to even deal in those fairness terms yet. And if Israel won't accept dealing with Fatah, they will perpetually be dealing with a metric that a kind word plus a 2x4 gets one far further than a kind word alone. And there is no clock that will ever run out.

Right now, Israel has the bigger 2x4, but in the fullness of time, that 2x4 solves nothing, and more radical groups are acquiring their own 2x4's to raise the antie as they finally are acquiring the ability to strike real counter blows.

jckm, what part of the futility of the past 60 years don't you understand? If Israel wants to frame this as 6 million jews against 200 million arabs, its a no brainer, Israel loses long term. If Israel wants to demonstrate it can be a positive addition to the mid east neighborhood, they stand a chance.

Israel had a chance to take the high road in 1948 and muffed it by turning itself into a jews only State as they engaged in the politics of pigs by disenfranchising their own Palestinian population. Now the onus is on Israel to reverse that or they will forever inherit the wind.
 

jckm

Junior Member
Jun 13, 2007
6
0
0
As an Israeli apologist, jckm recites the current Israeli party line of might make right.
Nobody think might makes right just for the sake of might. To assert that is plain stupidity. Do I think Hitler's use of might makes right, no. Do I think the Allies were right to use their might to destroy Hitler rather than diplomatic process, yes. Fatah isn't doing anything to stop these terrorist from killing innocent civilian. What can Israel do, build a wall to stop them? Well they did, and rocket rain down on their city. You think Israel just stand by? I know Fatah won't do anything to hold up their authorities.

I do hope Isreal will make peace with Fatah, but I very skeptical it will happen when Hamas is around.

jckm, what part of the futility of the past 60 years don't you understand? If Israel wants to frame this as 6 million jews against 200 million arabs, its a no brainer, Israel loses long term. If Israel wants to demonstrate it can be a positive addition to the mid east neighborhood, they stand a chance.

I don't think any Arab country will attack Israel for the sake of the Palestinian. The Arab leadership just uses the Pal cause to divert attention of their corruptions and mainly PUBLIC RELATION. Just look at the Arab summit. Israel got nukes and Israel in bed with the US.. Millions and millions will die cause of a little place like Palestine. That likelihood is unlikely.
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
Israel had a chance to take the high road in 1948 and muffed it by turning itself into a jews only State as they engaged in the politics of pigs by disenfranchising their own Palestinian population. Now the onus is on Israel to reverse that or they will forever inherit the wind.
I find it very mystifying that you blame Israel for not taking the "high road" in 1948.

Where is your critcism of the Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Transjordanians, and Egyptians for not taking the "high road" in 1948?

Why don't you blame the Palestinians for not taking the "high road' when they routinely mass murder innocent civilians on buses, at weddings, at birthday parties, in restaurants, shopping areas, etc?

 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Well, the Gaza disengagement really worked out well, didn't it? 51 rockets have hit the Israeli town of Sderot since Thursday. 8 longer range rockets have hit the city of Ashkelon. In total, over 90 rockets have hit Israel since Wednsday. Israel has been responding with limited airstrikes targeting rocket launching cells, but it has not been very effective. Israel is finally waking up and massing tanks and artillery on the Gaza border. However, this will be no simple operation. Going into Gaza today is not what it used to be. Hamas has been arming and training for this situation even before they seized power. This will be all-out war, and they are ready for it. Israel should not take them lightly, and I don't think they will. It's time for Israel to say screw world opinion and protect it's citizens. It's quite obvious that Hamas is not interested in peace, and is bringing death and destruction into the backyards of the Gaza strip. It boggles the mind how Israeli politicians can still be discussing additional concessions of territory in light on the enormous blunder of pulling out of Gaza. WTG Sharon.

I wouldn't worry too much about Hamas' ability to go toe to toe with Israel. They use terror tactics. That means they don't have the muscle for a straight up fight.

Israel will retake Gaza despite the fact that they ceded it already, the Palestinians will still resent it, Hamas will remain a terror organization, and San Francisco will still be crazy. Nothing changes.

On a side note, might don't make right, but it don't make wrong either.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: ThePresence
Well, the Gaza disengagement really worked out well, didn't it? 51 rockets have hit the Israeli town of Sderot since Thursday. 8 longer range rockets have hit the city of Ashkelon. In total, over 90 rockets have hit Israel since Wednsday. Israel has been responding with limited airstrikes targeting rocket launching cells, but it has not been very effective. Israel is finally waking up and massing tanks and artillery on the Gaza border. However, this will be no simple operation. Going into Gaza today is not what it used to be. Hamas has been arming and training for this situation even before they seized power. This will be all-out war, and they are ready for it. Israel should not take them lightly, and I don't think they will. It's time for Israel to say screw world opinion and protect it's citizens. It's quite obvious that Hamas is not interested in peace, and is bringing death and destruction into the backyards of the Gaza strip. It boggles the mind how Israeli politicians can still be discussing additional concessions of territory in light on the enormous blunder of pulling out of Gaza. WTG Sharon.

I wouldn't worry too much about Hamas' ability to go toe to toe with Israel. They use terror tactics. That means they don't have the muscle for a straight up fight.

Israel will retake Gaza despite the fact that they ceded it already, the Palestinians will still resent it, Hamas will remain a terror organization, and San Francisco will still be crazy. Nothing changes.

On a side note, might don't make right, but it don't make wrong either.
Isreal should raze Gaza rather than control it to solve that problem permanently.

Sounds harsh, but Hamas is determined to continue to use Gaza as a staging point to generate support for their position by playing the injured little boy.

Israel removed themselves from Gaza and the Palestinians still continues to cause problems.

The status quo either is allowed to exist, attacks blessed by the Pal leadership on Isreal triggering retaliation against those that caused it, causing anticipated civilian casualites (for the sympathy card) or removal of Gaza from the picture and let either their Arab sponsors or the West Bank take up the population.

Hamas has shown that they do not want peace no matter what Isreal does and are determined to undermine any efforts along that front.

Either Hamas is removed so peace can have a chance or there will be no peace until the world applies pressure on the Arab sponsors to stop supporting the militants.

Isreal is not going to go away; with Jordan and Egypt not wanting to get involved in any of the issues, Syria to scared to do anything but support the radical leadership and play with Lebanon, and Lebanon handcuffed by its own internal issues; Isreal can deal harshly with the Militants if needed.

 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
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Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Hamas has shown that they do not want peace no matter what Isreal does and are determined to undermine any efforts along that front.
The mutual cease-fire Hamas offers, along with the previous unilateral cease-fires Hamas has maintained while Israel continued killing and capturing Hamas officials, and expanding colonization of the West Bank, clearly demonstrates otherwise. While Hamas, along with the rest of the Arab world, continues to show they would prefer to establish the permanent boarders necessary for peace, The Israeli government has consistantly been determined to perpetuate this conflict as long as they can continue building and expanding Israeli settlements throughout what little is left of Palestine.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
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Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Israel had a chance to take the high road in 1948 and muffed it by turning itself into a jews only State as they engaged in the politics of pigs by disenfranchising their own Palestinian population. Now the onus is on Israel to reverse that or they will forever inherit the wind.
I find it very mystifying that you blame Israel for not taking the "high road" in 1948.

Where is your critcism of the Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Transjordanians, and Egyptians for not taking the "high road" in 1948?
Perhaps you don't realize that Israeli forces were running Palestinians out of territory which the U.N. partitioned to Israel as well as regions which were partitioned to the Palestinians, all prior to the to the Arab armies attacking Israel?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Hamas has shown that they do not want peace no matter what Israel does and are determined to undermine any efforts along that front.
The mutual cease-fire Hamas offers, along with the previous unilateral cease-fires Hamas has maintained while Israel continued killing and capturing Hamas officials, and expanding colonization of the West Bank, clearly demonstrates otherwise. While Hamas, along with the rest of the Arab world, continues to show they would prefer to establish the permanent boarders necessary for peace, The Israeli government has consistently been determined to perpetuate this conflict as long as they can continue building and expanding Israeli settlements throughout what little is left of Palestine.
Why does Hamas allow the continued shelling of Israel from within the Gaza borders?
From the time that Israel pulled back from Gaza, the shelling locations just moved closer.

Israel collecting Hamas officials are based on crimes that those officials have done.

And Hamas's charter calls for the destruction of Israel.

Everyone wants permanent borders, however, the location of the borders should be a diplomatic endeavor. And the border of the Med will not fly.

Israel has demonstrated the the UN resolutions mean nothing and most of the resolutions have been biased against Israel (initiated from the Arab /Soviet camp).

From Israel's POV, if the Pals want any land and economic stability, it will have to come as part of a peace effort that they will honor. Otherwise, Israel will have no issue in expanding into territory that the Arab nations in '48 were responsible for and lost in subsequent conflicts with Israel.

Israel gave up land for peace (unilaterally) and that method has shown to be a failure.
Why should they cede anymore land - doing so up to this point has not benefited them?

 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Hamas has shown that they do not want peace no matter what Israel does and are determined to undermine any efforts along that front.
The mutual cease-fire Hamas offers, along with the previous unilateral cease-fires Hamas has maintained while Israel continued killing and capturing Hamas officials, and expanding colonization of the West Bank, clearly demonstrates otherwise. While Hamas, along with the rest of the Arab world, continues to show they would prefer to establish the permanent boarders necessary for peace, The Israeli government has consistently been determined to perpetuate this conflict as long as they can continue building and expanding Israeli settlements throughout what little is left of Palestine.
Why does Hamas allow the continued shelling of Israel from within the Gaza borders?
From the time that Israel pulled back from Gaza, the shelling locations just moved closer.

Israel collecting Hamas officials are based on crimes that those officials have done.

And Hamas's charter calls for the destruction of Israel.

Everyone wants permanent borders, however, the location of the borders should be a diplomatic endeavor. And the border of the Med will not fly.

Israel has demonstrated the the UN resolutions mean nothing and most of the resolutions have been biased against Israel (initiated from the Arab /Soviet camp).

From Israel's POV, if the Pals want any land and economic stability, it will have to come as part of a peace effort that they will honor. Otherwise, Israel will have no issue in expanding into territory that the Arab nations in '48 were responsible for and lost in subsequent conflicts with Israel.

Israel gave up land for peace (unilaterally) and that method has shown to be a failure.
Why should they cede anymore land - doing so up to this point has not benefited them?
Israel didn't give Gaza up for peace, they witrhew to it's boarders while sealing it off for attack while moving many of the Gaza settlers to the West Bank and further expanding settlements there. There was no attempt at peace in that.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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The Snowman comes up with---Israel gave up land for peace (unilaterally) and that method has shown to be a failure.
Why should they cede anymore land - doing so up to this point has not benefited them?

Well maybe everyone missed the dubious fact as Israel continues to settle on disputed land.

Of course the other bone of contention is that Hamas will never settle for less than total victory. When its more a psychological defense mechanism because that is the Israeli stance and negotiating position. When in fact we have never even explored what Palestinian extremist groups might do if Israel might be prepared to allow a viable Palestinian State.

But when Israel offer nothing to even Fatah as the more moderate ones, one must expect the conflict will escalate.

And now we have a thread title of war brewing in Gaza. What in 60 damn years is new about that? Its also Israel that is unwilling to settle on any basis other than they get it all.

Quite frankly, and looking at all sides, I don't see a single white hat.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
The Snowman comes up with---Israel gave up land for peace (unilaterally) and that method has shown to be a failure.
That was Common Courtesy, not me.
 
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