War brewing in Gaza

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: lupi
Don't recall "Britain" giving anything to anyone. Pretty sure it was a UN resolution.

shhhh, stop bringing those pesky facts in here... you're upsetting all of the anti-Semites!

Speaking of anti-Semites, I'd love to see one of them answer the OP's best question thus far:

Originally posted by: ThePresence
I find it interesting though that your concern for the innocent, who will suffer, is reserved for the Palestinian innocent. Are their innocents more important? 90 FUCKING ROCKETS fell in the last two days on Israeli towns. Where is your outrage?

Well? Come on folks... answer his question. (and yes, I did revise the bold part for emphasis)

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Oppress people long enough and they will kill you.

Interesting. You argue as if the legitimacy of their warfare is beyond questioning.

Yet anytime our hostile enemy is to be killed on the battlefield, you cry foul that innocents are being slaughtered.

It is with an evil and vile hypocrisy that you look upon anyone fighting Muslim terrorists, and Israel is a prime example of that. You permit Muslims the legitimacy to kill Israelis, but not the Israelis the right to fight back.

I say let the strongest one win, and pray that the winner is our ally and not our sworn enemy.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: GrGr
The Israelis are reenacting their own history, only this time with them in the role of oppressors outside the walls of a ghetto they created.

Your the sdame person who posted that garbage-- An invention called 'the Jewish people'
Very intersting read about Jewish discourse in Israel ....

You understand very little of whats actually happenning....

As my friend ThePresence stated --
What you say is true. The Nazi's built walls to protect themselves from the Jews who were bombing the crap out of the German civillians. It was getting to a point when the German mothers were afraid to send their kids to school on a bus because the Jews might blow them up. The Nazis also gave the Jews their own territory in an attempt to make peace with them, but the Jews would have none of it and sent dozens of rockets daily into German towns. Don't forget that the Jews also massacred groups of Germans before Germany was ever a country, so the Jewish claim that they were doing it because of German statehood was proven false. Your point is taken, thanks for the history lesson.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: GrGr
The Israelis are reenacting their own history, only this time with them in the role of oppressors outside the walls of a ghetto they created.

What you say is true. The Nazi's built walls to protect themselves from the Jews who were bombing the crap out of the German civillians. It was getting to a point when the German mothers were afraid to send their kids to school on a bus because the Jews might blow them up. The Nazis also gave the Jews their own territory in an attempt to make peace with them, but the Jews would have none of it and sent dozens of rockets daily into German towns. Don't forget that the Jews also massacred groups of Germans before Germany was ever a country, so the Jewish claim that they were doing it because of German statehood was proven false. Your point is taken, thanks for the history lesson.

Ghettos and Pogroms have a far longer and broader history than Nazi Germany. Your simile misses the obvious point that the Palestinians are being pushed out by people taking over their country. The Brits had no right to give away Palestine to the Zionists in the first place. Now they, courtesy of their overwhelming military might, are rounding up and walling in the Palestinians into ghettos and nibbling away daily with settlements to increase the size of Israel. Obviously there is a reaction. De Gaulle said Israel would use exactly this tactic - expand and then decry any reaction as terrorism, and use the terrorism excuse for further crackdowns.

I'm aware of the history of ghettos, I'm actually writing a book on the subject. Britain didn't give the country to anyone, they left in middle of the night and the UN decided to partition the country. The Arabs chose to attack. Israel built the wall to protect itself from the suicide bombers which were hitting Israeli cities. It actually worked. If Israel was so interested in building settlements to "slowly nibble away land" they would not have given Gaza away.

Interesting then that you chose to read my post as a reference to Nazi Germany. Let me guess you thought of the Warzaw ghetto, right?

As for my comment re: the British I was thinking more of the Balfour Declaration:

From Wiki:

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated November 2, 1917) was a classified formal statement of policy by the British government on the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of World War I.

The letter stated the position, agreed to at a British Cabinet meeting on October 31, 1917, that the British government supported Zionist plans for a National home for the Jewish people within Palestine? with the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities there.

The statement was issued through the efforts of Chaim Weizmann and Nahum Sokolow, the principal Zionist leaders based in London but, as they had asked for the reconstitution of Palestine as ?the? Jewish national home, the Declaration fell short of Zionist expectations.[1]

The "Balfour Declaration" was later incorporated into the Sèvres peace treaty with Turkey and the Mandate for Palestine. The declaration was made in a letter from Arthur James Balfour (Foreign Secretary) to Lord Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation, a private Zionist organization. The document is kept at the British Library.

The Arab decision to "attack" was classic blowback in action.

Gaza was very generous.

And isn't it remarkable how hard Israel leans on some UN decisions and deliberately ignores, and is in direct violation of, others.

What I find interesting is your total lack of understanding concerning UN resolutions that were only aimed at Israel and were never meant to attempt to solve any issues!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Martin
Israeli minister threatens palestinians with "holocaust" - link

Israel is not interested in peace, just oppression, ethnic cleansing, war, etc. But I guess its ok, they're the chosen people and speaking against them makes you a Nazi. :roll:

Of course you would have to link to oen of the most anti israeli newspapers in the world..lolol

Also that word has been explained away over and over!

 

[spittledip]

Whether right or wrong, Israel will destroy the Palestinians. No need to worry about Israel.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

These people will never be able to live next to one another. The only solution is for either the Israelis to be relocated to another nation (how about Canada or even the U.S.?) or for the Palestinians to be relocated (to, say, neighboring Arab countries).

In the meantime, the Israeli's should enact a policy of annexing 1 square mile of Gaza land (and clearing it of all people) for every Israeli who dies or who is severely injured from Palestinian terrorism.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: Martin
Israeli minister threatens palestinians with "holocaust" - link

Israel is not interested in peace, just oppression, ethnic cleansing, war, etc. But I guess its ok, they're the chosen people and speaking against them makes you a Nazi. :roll:

Of course you would have to link to oen of the most anti israeli newspapers in the world..lolol

Also that word has been explained away over and over!

I thought that was the BBC? So you attack the messenger, not the message?

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
I think I explained that word to the best of my ability.
Yes, Hamas won the election, after which they fought Fatah for control of Gaza.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think The Presence has unwittingly put his finger on the root of all the problems in the mid-east. This fallacy that if we can somehow demonstrate that a given entity has done something wrong, that it somehow vindicates the other entities that therefore can claim the moral high ground.

Of course the problem is that all sides can spend days and days reciting the very valid wrongs done to them while completely ignoring the wrongs their side has done.

To a certain limited extent, Israel can claim they were the aggrieved party first, because immediately after the UN created the State of Israel, the surrounding Arab States invaded.
But even the first wrong claim was predated by Israel being founded by a set of former terrorists actively working against the British while they held the Palestinian mandate. And sure enough, two of the most active bomb throwing terrorists in both Begin and Meir later became prime ministers of Israel.

Perhaps the biggest fallacy is in assuming those so deep in denial can ever make peace or sort out former injustices in some sort of fair manner. Its had limited success with Egypt, Jordan, and Israel, but still does not address Palestinian question of the anger on the Arab street. But after the Assassination of Rabin, further progress has yielded zero progress.

Maybe its time for some binding international arbitration, some fairer settlement could be reached, no sides will like it, but they can like it or lump it, because thats the way it will be.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Oppress people long enough and they will kill you.

Interesting. You argue as if the legitimacy of their warfare is beyond questioning.

Yet anytime our hostile enemy is to be killed on the battlefield, you cry foul that innocents are being slaughtered.

It is with an evil and vile hypocrisy that you look upon anyone fighting Muslim terrorists, and Israel is a prime example of that. You permit Muslims the legitimacy to kill Israelis, but not the Israelis the right to fight back.

I say let the strongest one win, and pray that the winner is our ally and not our sworn enemy.

From my point of view you are insane with fear and insecurity, living in the rubble of some terrible childhood trauma you are afraid to face. You fear what has already happened to you will happen again, not understanding that all your worst fears have already happened.

This fear, this paranoia that affects you affects your mind and your judgment, in my opinion. As a crazy person your thinking is insane.

So given the conditions I believe you suffer under, everything you see is in my opinion a distortion created by your personal bent:

I said nothing that makes war legitimate. War is insanity. War is inevitable with the insane. That is a fact, not a prescription or excuse. We do not ordinarily allow the insane free reign to act out.

I am as opposed to Muslim violence as I am to any violence. In the case of Palestine and Israel, however, it is Israel who holds the cards and has magnified the problems there with their methodology. They are in the cat bird seat. They have the power and they have the obligation to make the move to peace. They have created an insane people and they are responsible for treatment. Dealing with the insane isn't fun or easy. Germany is paying for what they did to the holocaust survivors. When you sin you incur debt.

You say let the stronger win because you are ignorant. To the carpenter every problem is solved with a hammer. We don't expect paranoids to offer intelligent solutions to difficult situations. You understanding of life is occluded, your point of view insane.

You might profit from the realization that an eye for an eye leads eventually to universal blindness. Your fear creates itself in endless violence and insanity for the next and the next generation. Your fear makes you very unkind.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Martin
Israeli minister threatens palestinians with "holocaust" - link

Israel is not interested in peace, just oppression, ethnic cleansing, war, etc. But I guess its ok, they're the chosen people and speaking against them makes you a Nazi. :roll:

I see. So one guy says something stupid and that means Israel doesn't want peace. I can't imagine what you must think of Hamas who verbally threatens Israel with destruction daily.

Actually, you can imagine, as its the same thing I think of the Israelis. Israel is a fucking militaristic, authoritarian police state with a large percentage of the population being immensely powerful religions fanatics, warmongering troglodytes, ethnic-cleansers etc.

My main problem is people like you really - since you do your best to portray Israel as a regular, modern, civilized state that is just the innocent victim of terrorists all around it, and has to reluctantly fight a righteous war. I really can't stand this two-faced bullshit. A racist that masks his racism using PC-language is still the same old racist, and so it is with you. No matter how hard you try to present Israel in a positive light, you just can't hide the ugly, ugly reality on the ground.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: spittledip
Whether right or wrong, Israel will destroy the Palestinians. No need to worry about Israel.

Not if the UN and US have anything to say about it.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
From my point of view you are insane with fear and insecurity, living in the rubble of some terrible childhood trauma you are afraid to face. You fear what has already happened to you will happen again, not understanding that all your worst fears have already happened.

This fear, this paranoia that affects you affects your mind and your judgment, in my opinion. As a crazy person your thinking is insane.

No Moonbeam, I find you are insane. Insane with the fervent support all bleeding heart types give to our killers while at the same time condemning those who fight our killers. Your original post gives the complete picture of this.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Oppress people long enough and they will kill you. Tell people your god gave you something their god gave them and get ready for fun. Israel will not stand against the will if the people of the world. It's only a matter of time. Israel has long ago said screw the world. And the world will screw Israel back. You have created a prison in your own country for other people and can't hide that fact. Israel is wrong to do that and will therefore lose. The hate of others is the hate of the self and self hate brings self destruction. There is no escape from that fact. We create the monsters that haunt our psyches.

Do you ever say ?Kill westerners long enough and they will kill you?? No. I never find your bleeding heart bleeding for western people, only for those who kill us.

That is treachery.

You say let the stronger win because you are ignorant. To the carpenter every problem is solved with a hammer. We don't expect paranoids to offer intelligent solutions to difficult situations. You understanding of life is occluded, your point of view insane.

You might profit from the realization that an eye for an eye leads eventually to universal blindness. Your fear creates itself in endless violence and insanity for the next and the next generation. Your fear makes you very unkind.

I say let the stronger win because western civilization is the stronger of the two. This is war Moonbeam and I will always favor our people over those killing our people. Preventing one side from defeating another would create unending war ? as we witness today with the Israel/Palestinian war. Every war we?ve fought in ended precisely because the strongest side won. Because our killers were killed by our hand.

I advocate winning warfare the same way it has always been won throughout the history of mankind. You advocate something entirely different, something that I find counterproductive and treacherous to our interests of survival.

What you mistake as fear is the will to defeat an opponent. Islamic Supremacists are no more feared than the Japanese, Germans, the Spanish, the Confederacy, the Native Americans, or the English were feared. This is about waging war and forcing an opponent to surrender hostilities.

I don?t understand why you think you?ll come to the cessation of hostilities through your bleeding heart. It has never succeeded before, and as far as those waging war today are concerned ? it never will. Those who lust for warfare must have warfare brought upon them.

Call that insane as you like, I?ll leave it to history to decide.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Martin
Israeli minister threatens palestinians with "holocaust" - link

Israel is not interested in peace, just oppression, ethnic cleansing, war, etc. But I guess its ok, they're the chosen people and speaking against them makes you a Nazi. :roll:

I see. So one guy says something stupid and that means Israel doesn't want peace. I can't imagine what you must think of Hamas who verbally threatens Israel with destruction daily.

Actually, you can imagine, as its the same thing I think of the Israelis. Israel is a fucking militaristic, authoritarian police state with a large percentage of the population being immensely powerful religions fanatics, warmongering troglodytes, ethnic-cleansers etc.

My main problem is people like you really - since you do your best to portray Israel as a regular, modern, civilized state that is just the innocent victim of terrorists all around it, and has to reluctantly fight a righteous war. I really can't stand this two-faced bullshit. A racist that masks his racism using PC-language is still the same old racist, and so it is with you. No matter how hard you try to present Israel in a positive light, you just can't hide the ugly, ugly reality on the ground.

To be honest, Israel has to be that way considering her neighbors want to eat her alive and fresh memories of the Holocaust and modern terrorism. They simply don't have a choice and we living in the West can't complain too much about their plight. OTOH, Israel really needs to make peace with the Pals if it wants to move on from a state of paranoia to one of relative peace.

 

[JSt0rm]

I think this conflict is too complex for a "solution" Both sides are wrong and its the civilians that pay the price. Both sides share loses and both sides spawn hate because of it. Hate is what is killing these people.

Jaskalas: I find your logic and emotion on this subject to be flawed. Just because Israel is our friend doesn't really take away from the pain of seeing children die. This isn't a liberal bleeding heart thing. This is an empathy thing for all humans. I think it requires higher thought then just "hulk smash". That is so 20th century. You should not look at the suffering of any human life and be happy because they are our enemies and they are being beaten down.

What happened to the jews during world war 2 is one of the worst things that could happen to any human population. But history does repeat itself over and over again in Serbia, Africa and in Gaza. I think human ego is what gets in our way of becoming truly great. Its so hard for us to admit wrong or to swallow our pride or to hold our hand.

And as far as terrorism is concerned. I just can't help but think back to the american revolution and how we couldn't stand up to the british and fight by standing in lines so we decided to hide and pick them off. They condemned that why of fighting as well but it was all we could do. I feel like modern warfare would cut apart any conventional army so they fall into the shadows and fight the only way they can. I'm not saying this is right but lets just understand why this is going on.

 

[replicator]

I am tired of hearing the same old line "Israel has a right to defend itself". What about the Palestinians? Do they not have a right to defend themselves? Damned politicians are too cowardly to look in any way that they are disloyal to Israel.

I wish the US would be a bit more unbiased, and take a truthful look at the situation on the ground. Neither side is innocent, but as long as Israel is oppressing the people of Palestine, this thing isn't going to end.

 

[ScottFern]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
Well, the Gaza disengagement really worked out well, didn't it? 51 rockets have hit the Israeli town of Sderot since Thursday. 8 longer range rockets have hit the city of Ashkelon. In total, over 90 rockets have hit Israel since Wednsday. Israel has been responding with limited airstrikes targeting rocket launching cells, but it has not been very effective. Israel is finally waking up and massing tanks and artillery on the Gaza border. However, this will be no simple operation. Going into Gaza today is not what it used to be. Hamas has been arming and training for this situation even before they seized power. This will be all-out war, and they are ready for it. Israel should not take them lightly, and I don't think they will. It's time for Israel to say screw world opinion and protect it's citizens. It's quite obvious that Hamas is not interested in peace, and is bringing death and destruction into the backyards of the Gaza strip. It boggles the mind how Israeli politicians can still be discussing additional concessions of territory in light on the enormous blunder of pulling out of Gaza. WTG Sharon.

That's the same line the MSM has been giving us for years every night on the news. It's getting old and there are reasons Hamas is doing this. They aren't firing rockets because its a fun hobby. Oppress people long enough and they will eventually fight back.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
I think this conflict is too complex for a "solution" Both sides are wrong and its the civilians that pay the price. Both sides share loses and both sides spawn hate because of it. Hate is what is killing these people.

You speak as if two sides to any war haven?t hated each other before. The only difference with the modern world is the international community condemning the victorious power prior to them cementing victory. The UN and US have mandated that Israel snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. So this bloodshed continues indefinitely.

Jaskalas: I find your logic and emotion on this subject to be flawed. Just because Israel is our friend doesn't really take away from the pain of seeing children die. This isn't a liberal bleeding heart thing. This is an empathy thing for all humans. I think it requires higher thought then just "hulk smash". That is so 20th century. You should not look at the suffering of any human life and be happy because they are our enemies and they are being beaten down.

Children dying, the loss of human life, NONE of this is new to warfare. The only difference now is that we are actually propping up our common enemy to allow this bloodshed to continue.

What makes the loss of life worse is the stratagem of terrorism. Committing acts of war among and directly against the innocent civilian population IS going to result in a greater loss of innocent life. Anyone who wants to stop rocket attacks launched from a house is going to destroy that neighborhood. Innocents have no place being in a battlefield. They have no place supporting and propping up their fighters IN the battlefield.

If terrorists want to make their neighborhoods the battlefield, that?s their problem. We should NOT commit acts of suicide against our innocents and against our military by permitting terrorists safe harbor merely because of their tactics.

Our chief concern should be the loss of life on our side.

What happened to the jews during world war 2 is one of the worst things that could happen to any human population. But history does repeat itself over and over again in Serbia, Africa and in Gaza. I think human ego is what gets in our way of becoming truly great. Its so hard for us to admit wrong or to swallow our pride or to hold our hand.

Who is advocating genocide against innocents? Fighters who thirst for warfare should be quenched of that thirst. They should be forced to surrender or die. That is war.

And as far as terrorism is concerned. I just can't help but think back to the american revolution and how we couldn't stand up to the british and fight by standing in lines so we decided to hide and pick them off. They condemned that why of fighting as well but it was all we could do. I feel like modern warfare would cut apart any conventional army so they fall into the shadows and fight the only way they can. I'm not saying this is right but lets just understand why this is going on.

I wouldn't say it any other way. Terrorism is a stratagem of warfare, and in war we cut down our opponents. Yet you seem to stand against that concept. Contradictory to all warfare that has ever come before our generation.

 

[JSt0rm]

I just don't think killing each other solves anything. Its not a hard concept. Look, I don't have the solutions to this problem but i do know that if you kill a child then the brother and father hate you for life. If you kill a father or a mother then the child, cousin or uncle hate you. If you do this enough, you can't kill all the people that hate you without doing something really bad. Do you think Israel should kill every man women and child in Gaza?

 

[Socio]

Now IRAN'S President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is mouthing off about what is going on in Gaza;

http://www.theaustralian.news....23305569-12377,00.html">Israel will be 'uprooted', says Iran</a>

IRAN'S President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said that Israel will be "uprooted" and its leaders put on trial as he condemned today's deadly Israeli strikes in the Gaza Strip.

"Gaza is the beginning, the real issue is elsewhere. They should know that both in the prelude and in the real thing they face a defeat and this time they will be uprooted," he said.

Mr Ahmadinejad last month called Israel a "dirty microbe" and "savage animal" in a speech to a public rally, provoking a new wave of international condemnation of his anti-Israel comments.

Reading between the lines it sounds like a hint at a nuclear attack on Israel in the near future and ?the real issue? being ?elsewhere? could mean one is planed for the US as well.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Martin
Israeli minister threatens palestinians with "holocaust" - link

Israel is not interested in peace, just oppression, ethnic cleansing, war, etc. But I guess its ok, they're the chosen people and speaking against them makes you a Nazi. :roll:

I see. So one guy says something stupid and that means Israel doesn't want peace. I can't imagine what you must think of Hamas who verbally threatens Israel with destruction daily.

Actually, you can imagine, as its the same thing I think of the Israelis. Israel is a fucking militaristic, authoritarian police state with a large percentage of the population being immensely powerful religions fanatics, warmongering troglodytes, ethnic-cleansers etc.

My main problem is people like you really - since you do your best to portray Israel as a regular, modern, civilized state that is just the innocent victim of terrorists all around it, and has to reluctantly fight a righteous war. I really can't stand this two-faced bullshit. A racist that masks his racism using PC-language is still the same old racist, and so it is with you. No matter how hard you try to present Israel in a positive light, you just can't hide the ugly, ugly reality on the ground.

To be honest, Israel has to be that way considering her neighbors want to eat her alive and fresh memories of the Holocaust and modern terrorism. They simply don't have a choice and we living in the West can't complain too much about their plight. OTOH, Israel really needs to make peace with the Pals if it wants to move on from a state of paranoia to one of relative peace.

In the early years yes, but not for a long time. Egypt used to be their largest and most feared enemy and they made peace with them. They could have done the same with Syria and the Palestinians (giving up the Golan heights, west bank, gaza), instead they've chosen to give in to the religious fanaticism, settle the land and create "facts on the ground" and drive out the people there as much as possible. Sorry, I can't feel sorry for someone cries victim at the same time they're starting wars.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Socio
Reading between the lines

You mean accusation without fact behind it?

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Socio
Reading between the lines

You mean accusation without fact behind it?

No I mean logical assumption of true meaning.

 

[brandonb]

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Socio
Reading between the lines

You mean accusation without fact behind it?

No I mean logical assumption of true meaning.

jpeyton, Iran is the axese of evil! Anything they say or do means they want to nuke Israel and the USA. You JUST WAIT. We must support Israel with nukes and cluster bombs so they can fight against terroism with us as our friends!

Don't let the propaganda fool you. You don't want to be brainwashed do you, like those evil Nazi's used to do?

/sarcasm

(Did I forget anything?)

 

[jckm]

The only solution is to get rip of Hamas. All the Pals and Isealis suffering are cause by Hamas. The wall is a great strategic defense in stopping suicide bombers. Now Israel needs to find a way to stop the rockets. Hitting Hamas and pull out, over and over again doesn't work.