Warlock, Hunter or Mage for PVP in WoW???

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: CKent
Aside from keeping you stunned the entire time from 100% health until you die...

Shenanigans.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Aikouka
I don't think shamans are worthless.. I think shamans suffer the most because they have no role apart from their restoration spec. My shaman is enhancement (level 69, he failed to hit level 70 with my mage this weekend because my mage did the majority of instances), and he does pretty decent DPS given the fact that mail physical dps gear is pretty scarce (except in raids). The problem is... why would someone really want a shaman over a mage, warlock or rogue? For instances that are CC heavy, a shaman is useless, because they have no long-lasting CC (polymorph, sap and seduce). I was lucky to get into a Sethekk Halls run last night on my shaman after a DPS warrior quit the group! Good thing I don't need shattered halls or I bet I'd never get it.

Oh wait! We can use stoneclaw totem! :laugh:

You said it. Priests' off-spec has CC and a huge group benefit in the constant mana/hp replenishment. Paladins' and druids' off-specs are very capable of tanking. Additionally, feral is excellent dps making it suitable for farming and pvp. Only shamans must be restoration in PvE. The off-specs are so weak in PvP I won't even mention it. Everyone who plays at 70 knows how gimped they are and that the basics of PvP include killing the shaman first.

I think you want too much out of your class or you're simply not playing with others.

I want PvP as it was at 60 since release.

 

[chaudx]

Warlock.
Check the battlegroups for arena ladders. Druid/lock is top in a ton of battlegroups for 2v2, and locks still do decent in 3v3. Also do amazing in PvE and world PvP.

I play a 70 frost mage, our 3v3 is ranked 140th in our battlegroup (As of last week, next week we might get top 100) and I am pretty gimp. My damage is laughable, and cannot kill resto druids/resto shammys without luck, or them being stupid. I am not wonderful in 2v2, mine was only ~350th in the btlgrp.
10k hp, 330 resil, 721 frost damage. (As of tuesday it will be ~340 resil / 780 dmg).

The lock in my 3v3 on the other hand has mostly endless mana (Which I don't), damage while target is CCed, able to heal self, ect. He does 2v2 with a druid and they are 1940ish, unstoppable against most teams. Both cast without stopping movement, druid can eaisly get away, and lock won't go oom, can eaisly manage a pally.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: CKent
You said it. Priests' off-spec has CC and a huge group benefit in the constant mana/hp replenishment. Paladins' and druids' off-specs are very capable of tanking. Additionally, feral is excellent dps making it suitable for farming and pvp. Only shamans must be restoration in PvE. The off-specs are so weak in PvP I won't even mention it. Everyone who plays at 70 knows how gimped they are and that the basics of PvP include killing the shaman first.

Well, now it is good to note how limited the priest CC is in WoW. It can only be used on Undead, and how many instances have undead in them? Pretty much only Sethekk Halls and Auchenai Crypts. Based on this, I think the best thing to do would be to give Shamans a limited CC that (most importantly) makes sense. With that, I think Blizzard should add an elemental only CC to Shamans. It would make sense as Shamans are in tune with nature and the elements. This could provide Shamans with an extra added benefit that would make them more desirable in some instances.

It might also be possible to give them an elemental CC that affects any type of target... kind of like cyclone (which seems more like a shaman ability than a druid ability).

Originally posted by: CKent
I want PvP as it was at 60 since release.

I think PVP is mostly better at this point, although I think the upcoming resilience "buff" is going to help take some of the cheap-ness out of the overpowered caster classes.

 

[CKent]

I'm talking about mind control, not shackle. A few weeks back I "healed" a heroic mech with a shadow priest in the group. Quotes because I mostly just watched, though the tank did need some of my heals on bosses and destroyers. Earth shield + the shadow priest took care of the rest, including in-combat CC in the end event. A dps offspec which is viable in pve and pvp. I remember having that, it was nice. Oh well.

I hate PvP now. It used to be fun. Now it's a resilience / CC contest. That my chosen class and spec is gimped beyond belief is a separate issue which adds to my hatred of this expansion.

 

[Zbox]

Originally posted by: CKent
If a rogue isn't locking you down with stuns he's a poor excuse for a player.

it's silly to make blanket statements about things you obviously have less than a clue about.

this just does not (and cannot) happen in high level duels or arena due to the scaling of HP and dmg mitigation that resilience provides.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Zbox

Originally posted by: CKent
If a rogue isn't locking you down with stuns he's a poor excuse for a player.

it's silly to make blanket statements about things you obviously have less than a clue about.

this just does not (and cannot) happen in high level duels or arena due to the scaling of HP and dmg mitigation that resilience provides.

I'm at about 9500 armor, 10k hp and 170 resilience. As I've geared up a bit rogues have gone from stunlocking me to death in 10 seconds to doing it in 15 (Mind you, many of them wearing blues and even greens. Many without a shred of resilience or the pvp trinket which, unlike them, I MUST wear to have half a chance once every 2 long, painful minutes). If they slack and let me out of the stunlock, what can I do? I'm not melee, but if I were they have an incredible dodge rate and evasion. Cast? No, being hit 50 times a second makes even a 1 second cast take 5 minutes. Snare them and get distance? Nope, not with 4-5 readily available counters to snares. And dots & instants aren't an option because of CloS.

And this is the class being buffed.

Would admitting it really hurt your epeen so much? Would it be so bad to think that, instead of being the most uber WoW player ever, you're good in combination with having picked a godlike class?

Whatever. Maybe I'll try LotRO until Warhammer is released. I bought a semi-casual Blizzard game, not EQ3: Tigole's World of Raids and Nothing Else. Which is the root of the problem; what little development attention given to PvP is inattentive and uncaring about this aspect of the game. It's all about releasing that bi-monthly raid instance for the 3 guilds worldwide who actually do them. And that fuckwit Tigole posts more on each of their boards than on the official game forum, which really says a lot.

 

[Soccerman06]

Originally posted by: CKent

Originally posted by: Soccerman06
Must resist urge to get involved in scrubs arguing........ arg

My warlock pvp spec > all yalls :heart:

Seriously tho, 13k health 4k armor 900 shadow damage 350 res warlocks are op (coming from a 2000 rating warlock), pally/lock and warlock/sp combo op

Scrub? Lol you people really think you're skilled, that it can't possibly be the class you were lucky enough to pick... Both godlocks and rogues are so disgustingly overpowered in PvP I have to wonder what drug combinations the developers are taking - crack alone can't explain it. I guess it must be very self-gratifying, a nice little ego boost and all. Like Mike Tyson beating up a 5 year old and claiming boxing skill, practice and training :laugh:

Dont be jealous of my mad skillz

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: CKent
I'm at about 9500 armor, 10k hp and 170 resilience. As I've geared up a bit rogues have gone from stunlocking me to death in 10 seconds to doing it in 15 (Mind you, many of them wearing blues and even greens. Many without a shred of resilience or the pvp trinket which, unlike them, I MUST wear to have half a chance once every 2 long, painful minutes). If they slack and let me out of the stunlock, what can I do? I'm not melee, but if I were they have an incredible dodge rate and evasion. Cast? No, being hit 50 times a second makes even a 1 second cast take 5 minutes. Snare them and get distance? Nope, not with 4-5 readily available counters to snares. And dots & instants aren't an option because of CloS.

Why are you complaining about rogues vs shamans when you said we shouldn't complain about rogues vs warriors? You're complaining about a class that your own class is inherently weak too... and you want some resemblance of level 60 PVP back? News flash, rogues owned shamans at level 60 too! I remember beating one of the top shamans in the top Horde guild on my old server before he could even move and he was elemental with dagger-n-shield up and all gear being epic. It ain't new.

Maybe I should complain that shamans are overpowered because some hunter in my guild (with decent gear) got 2-shot in Arena by an elemental shaman via Lightning Overload (so in other words, it was instant death). Or I should complain about hunters because they can two-shot my mage with a decent crit or two.

Also, when it comes to rogues in Arena, if you're in a 2v2 and you only see 1 person... guess what, you probably have a rogue or a druid! Take counteractive measures against them. Drop a magma totem down, drop an earthbind if you think they're near you. Heck sometimes dropping EB and Magma is a good idea... get 'em snared from the start. Don't stand there and take it like the prison b****!

 

[Zbox]

Top 20 worldwide, all ladders:

44 Warriors
37 Paladins
36 Priests
30 Warlocks
25 Shamans
24 Mages
18 Druids
07 Hunters
05 Rogues

yep, rogues are overpowered! they also happen to be the only class with ZERO representation in 5v5.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Zbox
yep, rogues are overpowered! they also happen to be the only class with ZERO representation in 5v5.

I've kept away from that remark because Pandemic has a rogue in their 5v5 team.

 

[Zbox]

They don't this season.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Zbox
They don't this season.

They must've realized their mistake .

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Aikouka
Why are you complaining about rogues vs shamans when you said we shouldn't complain about rogues vs warriors? You're complaining about a class that your own class is inherently weak too... and you want some resemblance of level 60 PVP back? News flash, rogues owned shamans at level 60 too! I remember beating one of the top shamans in the top Horde guild on my old server before he could even move and he was elemental with dagger-n-shield up and all gear being epic. It ain't new.

Maybe I should complain that shamans are overpowered because some hunter in my guild (with decent gear) got 2-shot in Arena by an elemental shaman via Lightning Overload (so in other words, it was instant death). Or I should complain about hunters because they can two-shot my mage with a decent crit or two.

Also, when it comes to rogues in Arena, if you're in a 2v2 and you only see 1 person... guess what, you probably have a rogue or a druid! Take counteractive measures against them. Drop a magma totem down, drop an earthbind if you think they're near you. Heck sometimes dropping EB and Magma is a good idea... get 'em snared from the start. Don't stand there and take it like the prison b****!

It's a bad analogy because rogues destroy most classes other than MS warriors. If I destroyed everyone but rogues I wouldn't be complaining.

Lightning Overload has at most a 5% chance to proc, and the proc then has generally about a 30% chance of critting, depending on the shaman's gear. Even a dual crit proc will only net you about 6k-6500 damage with top dmg gear, which would leave you with few hp/resil; most arena shamans would do well to hit the 5500 range. Throw in a shock which crits for 2k and you're talking 7500, that's an extremely low hp total. My hunter partner's at 10 or 11k and really doesn't have very uber gear. Further yet, having LO means not having other important survivability talents, leaving the shaman yet more exposed. LO is not a part of any good arena build. Here's an example of a good elemental shaman arena build

Overall the odds of being glibbed by LO it are quite low in bad gear and nonexistent in good gear. If rogues could only stunlock me to death once every 100 tries I'd have no problem with it.

I owned rogues at 60 btw. Granted I had to be awake for the fight and play things properly, but I could do what I had to do to win - survive stunlock well and get range. Now my health % is decimated during that same stun duration, and my ability to get range is greatly diminished due to shiv and clos. The fact poisons were uncurable for 4 months after the expansion was a nice way to kick me while I was down.

There's not much you can do when you know a rogue is around. I've never seen one get popped from stealth by magma, the range is too small and it's too easy to avoid. Earthbind won't pull them out after the nerf next patch. Poison cleansing does nothing if they have half a brain and are using a stacking poison to make crippling harder to dispell.

I tend not to pay much attention to bad players. Even as a shaman, the joke of WoW PvP, I can kill a bad player of any class pretty readily. This isn't my concern. My issue with rogues is that if played with even a bare modicum of skill, they can kill you while rendering you unable to fight back, and they don't need good gear to do it.

Originally posted by: Zbox
yep, rogues are overpowered! they also happen to be the only class with ZERO representation in 5v5.

I've explained this two or three times already. I wish you'd read the thread before replying. That way I wouldn't have to repeat myself.

Children and bad players don't have an even class choice distribution. No 12 year old gets mom to buy WoW, hits up the character creation screen and rolls a priest thinking "Loelz I'm gun2 pwn pplz wif l33t h34lz!!1!1". Nol, they seem to choose rogues and hunters primarily.

I'm not calling you a kid nor stupid, I know you're not. I'm just talking about averages here. It's why rogues and hunters don't do well in arenas.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: CKent

Originally posted by: Zbox
yep, rogues are overpowered! they also happen to be the only class with ZERO representation in 5v5.

I've explained this two or three times already. I wish you'd read the thread before replying. That way I wouldn't have to repeat myself.

Children and bad players don't have an even class choice distribution. No 12 year old gets mom to buy WoW, hits up the character creation screen and rolls a priest thinking "Loelz I'm gun2 pwn pplz wif l33t h34lz!!1!1". Nol, they seem to choose rogues and hunters primarily.

I'm not calling you a kid nor stupid, I know you're not. I'm just talking about averages here. It's why rogues and hunters don't do well in arenas.

That is a very weak argument with no supporting facts. There are almost 9 million people playing the game with somewhere in the ballpark of a million rogues. Your theory about what a 12 year old would want to choose as a character just doesn't hold water (let alone a million gallons of it)

We have about 3 teenagers in my guild (16-18) and the remainder of the nearly two hundred members are all adults (>18). This includes all the rogues. How do you explain this with your theory?

Your theory is crap.

I think it's much more plausible that the correlation between low representation of rogues in PvP rankings is caused by rogues not being the overpowered PvP monsters that you keep claiming (even though you don't play a rogue).

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: CKent

Originally posted by: Zbox
yep, rogues are overpowered! they also happen to be the only class with ZERO representation in 5v5.

I've explained this two or three times already. I wish you'd read the thread before replying. That way I wouldn't have to repeat myself.

Children and bad players don't have an even class choice distribution. No 12 year old gets mom to buy WoW, hits up the character creation screen and rolls a priest thinking "Loelz I'm gun2 pwn pplz wif l33t h34lz!!1!1". Nol, they seem to choose rogues and hunters primarily.

I'm not calling you a kid nor stupid, I know you're not. I'm just talking about averages here. It's why rogues and hunters don't do well in arenas.

That is a very weak argument with no supporting facts. There are almost 9 million people playing the game with somewhere in the ballpark of a million rogues. Your theory about what a 12 year old would want to choose as a character just doesn't hold water (let alone a million gallons of it)

We have about 3 teenagers in my guild (16-18) and the remainder of the nearly two hundred members are all adults (>18). This includes all the rogues. How do you explain this with your theory?

Your theory is crap.

I think it's much more plausible that the correlation between low representation of rogues in PvP rankings is caused by rogues not being the overpowered PvP monsters that you keep claiming (even though you don't play a rogue).

My theory is far stronger than your allegation that a few rogues in your guild are a representative sample of a million people. You honestly think young children roll healers and tanks?

 

[Smilin]

With no conclussive evidence one way or the other I'll take the word of experienced level 70 rogue PvP players over some unsupported nutbag theory any day.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: CKent

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: CKent

Originally posted by: Zbox
yep, rogues are overpowered! they also happen to be the only class with ZERO representation in 5v5.

I've explained this two or three times already. I wish you'd read the thread before replying. That way I wouldn't have to repeat myself.

Children and bad players don't have an even class choice distribution. No 12 year old gets mom to buy WoW, hits up the character creation screen and rolls a priest thinking "Loelz I'm gun2 pwn pplz wif l33t h34lz!!1!1". Nol, they seem to choose rogues and hunters primarily.

I'm not calling you a kid nor stupid, I know you're not. I'm just talking about averages here. It's why rogues and hunters don't do well in arenas.

That is a very weak argument with no supporting facts. There are almost 9 million people playing the game with somewhere in the ballpark of a million rogues. Your theory about what a 12 year old would want to choose as a character just doesn't hold water (let alone a million gallons of it)

We have about 3 teenagers in my guild (16-18) and the remainder of the nearly two hundred members are all adults (>18). This includes all the rogues. How do you explain this with your theory?

Your theory is crap.

I think it's much more plausible that the correlation between low representation of rogues in PvP rankings is caused by rogues not being the overpowered PvP monsters that you keep claiming (even though you don't play a rogue).

My theory is far stronger than your allegation that a few rogues in your guild are a representative sample of a million people. You honestly think young children roll healers and tanks?

Yes.

I think they roll a great many classes and you are leaping to conclussions. You have no facts one way or the other so you are left only with your opinion.

Statistically it appears they roll almost no rogues at all since almost no rogues at all appear on PvP rankings. That doesn't make a lot of sense though does it? It looks like you have to take some other factor into consideration. The most obvious (that you appear blind to) is that some classes are less suited to PvP that others.

Again though...you have no facts to back up your theory. None, nada, zip, zilch. That's why...

Originally posted by: Smilin
Your theory is crap.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: Smilin
Again though...you have no facts to back up your theory. None, nada, zip, zilch. That's why...

Your theory is crap.

The assumption that because the .. what, 5? 6? rogues you know are a certain age, thus one million others must all a similar age remains a far more amusing and crappy theory. I could cherry pick 5 people who like eating balut as you've likely cherry picked your guild based on maturity level and likeminded players. Using your logic, I could say everyone on earth likes balut.

Balut

It seems obvious to me that the class and race choices in an MMORPG would be demographically different. It's no different from the differences between the average buyer of a Corvette vs. a station wagon. I don't understand how you can deny something so blatant.

 

[Zbox]

and I don't understand how you can deny something as blatant as the actual top 20 figures. if you're right and there's so many more young players, and primarily only young players play rogues, then there should be that many more rogues in the top 20 arena teams (especially since they're so overpowered, at least according to you).

the fact is that when you're dealing with a player base of near 10 million people the actual class balance situations will have a profound influence on arena standings. this is reflected in the actual arena figures. age and demographics don't matter much at all here, I'm sorry. the simple fact that you're describing impossible scenarios where rogues in greens stunlock & wtfpwn anything and everything is enough to invalidate any point you are trying to make. it's obvious that you have no concept of what high level arena/duels are like.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: CKent
It's a bad analogy because rogues destroy most classes other than MS warriors. If I destroyed everyone but rogues I wouldn't be complaining.

Really? So no one else can beat rogues. Now that's just silly. I guess my other character's defeating a rogue was just my own imagination trying to make up for the lack of being able to beat a rogue .

Originally posted by: CKent
Overall the odds of being glibbed by LO it are quite low in bad gear and nonexistent in good gear. If rogues could only stunlock me to death once every 100 tries I'd have no problem with it.

Doesn't matter, because it happened! Since someone I know got 2-shotted by a Shaman, that means they need to be nerfed! I had a shaman kill my mage in WSG and I really had no chance and I'm going to ignore that there was a hunter shooting at me too, 'cause there was a damn shaman! (Although I did almost kill the shaman ... he was enhancement though ).

Originally posted by: CKent
I owned rogues at 60 btw.

Rogue skill must have gone up considerably since pre-BC then, because Shamans weren't hard for Rogues before BC either.

Originally posted by: CKent
Earthbind won't pull them out after the nerf next patch.

As much as this was something nice to use, it never made sense why it pulled out rogues as it wasn't part of the listed design of the totem.

Originally posted by: CKent
Children and bad players don't have an even class choice distribution. No 12 year old gets mom to buy WoW, hits up the character creation screen and rolls a priest thinking "Loelz I'm gun2 pwn pplz wif l33t h34lz!!1!1". Nol, they seem to choose rogues and hunters primarily.

Logic check!

x is the realm of all WoW players

For all wow players, they are either a child (Cx) or an adult (Ax)
Vx(Cx V Ax)

For all wow players, if they are a rogue, then they are a child.
Vx(Rx -> Cx)

For all wow players, if they are a child, they are not an adult
Vx(Cx -> 'Ax)

Now to disprove it:
1) Ra
2) Aa
3) Ra -> Ca
4) Ca -> 'Aa
5) Ra -> 'Aa
6) 'Aa
7) Aa ^ 'Aa

I left out the reasoning because it's quite aparent . 'a' is referencing myself.

Also, regardless of how many crappy childish rogues there are on a server, if there are still good rogues... why don't they play on good teams? Only one of the 5v5 teams this past tournament had a rogue and as mentioned in this thread, they no longer have said rogue on their team. Coincidence?

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: CKent

Originally posted by: Smilin
Again though...you have no facts to back up your theory. None, nada, zip, zilch. That's why...

Your theory is crap.

The assumption that because the .. what, 5? 6? rogues you know are a certain age, thus one million others must all a similar age remains a far more amusing and crappy theory. I could cherry pick 5 people who like eating balut as you've likely cherry picked your guild based on maturity level and likeminded players. Using your logic, I could say everyone on earth likes balut.

Balut

Not at all. Unlike you I am making no assumptions whatsoever. I realize that my observations (although they are in direct conflict with your theory) are not statistically significant. My ONLY assertion is that your theory is crap.

Pay attention. I said it several times now.

Furthermore you are NOT using my logic. My logic made no implications at all on my observations. Here I'll save you the trouble of scrolling..

Originally posted by: Smilin
We have about 3 teenagers in my guild (16-18) and the remainder of the nearly two hundred members are all adults (>18). This includes all the rogues. How do you explain this with your theory?

..There. I posted a question. There is NO assertion there other than your theory doesn't match my observations. Don't read anything more into it than there is.

It seems obvious to me that the class and race choices in an MMORPG would be demographically different. It's no different from the differences between the average buyer of a Corvette vs. a station wagon. I don't understand how you can deny something so blatant.

Show me where I denied this?

You have yet to show that any race choices by different age groups would account for the fact that Rogues have almost no representation on the PvP charts.

Let's stutter that out once more...

You have yet to show...FACTS.



Hence your theory is crap. Sorry it bugs you that this is being pointed out.

 

[CKent]

Believe whatever you guys want, the back & forth is pointless. I suppose you think elderly women are as likely to buy a Maserati as they are a crown vic. Ignorance is bliss. Grats on the upcoming buffs. See you in Warhammer if you pick that one up when it's out

 

[ivan2]

Can I have your gold?

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Aikouka


Also, regardless of how many crappy childish rogues there are on a server, if there are still good rogues... why don't they play on good teams? Only one of the 5v5 teams this past tournament had a rogue and as mentioned in this thread, they no longer have said rogue on their team. Coincidence?

actually most of the Top rogues just stopped playing like they used to because our class got fvcked, the only really active one is Zechs

ona 5v5 team we are mostly useless, basicially every other class offers the damage we can deal with 10x the survivability

i have a 70 Rogue, i PVPed with him expensivily for almost 2 years, back at 60 as a GM yes we were virtually unstoppable, honestly the only class that gave me issues was an Undead Shadow Priest (fing Devouring Plague)

now at 70 we got screwed, resiliance hurts our class more then anyone, unlike warriors we dont white hit people for 1200, our itemization has been pretty sad at 70 and the arena gear isnt much better, and blizz failed us with gear scailing once again

warriors got massive upgrades, 500+ damage 2 handers that they can just make, we got nothing, our drops dont even compair to theirs, we still have the lowest HP of just about any class other then say a mage, and our armor is still pathetic

casters untill recently were basicially uneffected by resiliance, but that doesnt really change anything, they still dominate,

there are still lots of good rogues out there, however most of them rerolled or just PVE because thats pretty much all we are good for now

<- now plays an Undead Shadow Priest


EDIT:

To answer the Question posed by the OP, Roll a Warlock, seriously they are amazingly fun to play and you can dominate if you really want to

if you go Horde Roll a Orc, Racial is a free TOEP
if aliance go Human, only because i absoutly hate gnomes