Warp Drive? NASA Thinks Maybe...

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z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
10,004
63
91
Ignoring the fact that natural nuclear reactors exist, a nuclear reactor was based off previously existing science that showed that it was possible to transmute one element to another because a physical experiment existed that did just that.

The idea of a single indivisble piece of matter was around for a while, since the greeks actually, and it was Dalton that formed atomic theory of matter in the 1800's. Also fission reactors never had a problem of scale, shown by the fact that fission reactors exist naturally on earth time scales. Also nuclear reactons happen ALL THE TIME in real life, stuff decays and changes. That's nuclear reactions happening constantly.

The science for exotic matters and warp effects exists PURELY at a theoretical level. Nuclear Reactors were based on physical experiments that eventally were understood theoretically. And really "Open your mind?" That's a dumb argument. Haing an open mind doesn't mean blindly accepting the hypotheticals of the first scientists to come around and say they can do something.

My response is "Learn some goddamn critical thinking skills". Science isn't done by just saying "ITS ALL POSSIBLE" and blindly accepting it, its done by trying to rip apart every claim that comes its way because otherwise, you just get junk data and junk experiemnts. Shit like cold fusion has been worked on for years, and we still haven't even gotten close to achieving it, even through many people ahve claimed they got it. For people who claim to "love" science, you have a very pathetic understanding of how it works.

Our rate of technology growth and development is not linear, it is exponential. You assume because something that seems like it needs to scale hugely today, would be insurmountable in the future. Essentially, you are saying if something doesn't exist today, right in front of my face and I can't go out and test it right now, it can never be.

I'm not blindly accepting things. These are people smarter than both you and I with degrees and years of experience with these mathematics. Things have to start somewhere. Whether it be a theory on paper, or because an apple falls on your head... it needs a beginning.

It took years for people to validate that gravity could bend light. For a long time, it just sat as a set of expressions on paper.. Unthinkable...Untested.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,123
14,491
146
Ignoring the fact that natural nuclear reactors exist, a nuclear reactor was based off previously existing science that showed that it was possible to transmute one element to another because a physical experiment existed that did just that.

The idea of a single indivisble piece of matter was around for a while, since the greeks actually, and it was Dalton that formed atomic theory of matter in the 1800's. Also fission reactors never had a problem of scale, shown by the fact that fission reactors exist naturally on earth time scales. Also nuclear reactons happen ALL THE TIME in real life, stuff decays and changes. That's nuclear reactions happening constantly.

The science for exotic matters and warp effects exists PURELY at a theoretical level. Nuclear Reactors were based on physical experiments that eventally were understood theoretically. And really "Open your mind?" That's a dumb argument. Haing an open mind doesn't mean blindly accepting the hypotheticals of the first scientists to come around and say they can do something.

My response is "Learn some goddamn critical thinking skills". Science isn't done by just saying "ITS ALL POSSIBLE" and blindly accepting it, its done by trying to rip apart every claim that comes its way because otherwise, you just get junk data and junk experiemnts. Shit like cold fusion has been worked on for years, and we still haven't even gotten close to achieving it, even through many people ahve claimed they got it. For people who claim to "love" science, you have a very pathetic understanding of how it works.

Sure nice rant. I even agree with a lot of it.

However you seem to be ignoring that relativity says this effect is possible and our observations of the cosmic background radiation indicates the early universe did it.

So why does that mean we can do? It doesn't!

That's what the small scale lab experiment is for!

It simply means we have reason to believe that it's possible to design an experiment to investigate the phenomenon.

I personally think this is exactly the kind of scientific investigations NASA should be involved in.
 
Oct 25, 2006
11,036
11
91
Our rate of technology growth and development is not linear, it is exponential. You assume because something that seems like it needs to scale hugely today, would be insurmountable in the future. Essentially, you are saying if something doesn't exist today, right in front of my face and I can't go out and test it right now, it can never be.

I'm not blindly accepting things. These are people smarter than both you and I with degrees and years of experience with these mathematics. Things have to start somewhere. Whether it be a theory on paper, or because an apple falls on your head... it needs a beginning.

It took years for people to validate that gravity could bend light. For a long time, it just sat as a set of expressions on paper.. Unthinkable...Untested.

Okay then, fallacies with this post.

Complete BS:
"Our rate of technology growth and development is not linear, it is exponential. "
This is completely unquantifiable. If you're appealing to Moores law, Moores Law is linear. In exactly what branch of science is it advanciong exponentially? And even if it was, how do you quantify it? By how many scientific papers are produced on the subject? Because I assure you that it is not exponential

"You assume because something that seems like it needs to scale hugely today, would be insurmountable in the future. Essentially, you are saying if something doesn't exist today, right in front of my face and I can't go out and test it right now, it can never be."

We do not have the abiltiy to produce energy on the level of the mass energy of jupiter. And will not for a very very VERY long time. Possibly never, because that's stupid.

Appeal to Authority
"I'm not blindly accepting things. These are people smarter than both you and I with degrees and years of experience with these mathematics. "

That's EXACTLY what I mean about blindly accepting things. You're blindlgy accepting the theoretical notions of a small group of physists and you have absolutely no idea of the sceience involved in any of it. That's like the exact definition of the phrase "blind acceptance".

"Things have to start somewhere. Whether it be a theory on paper, or because an apple falls on your head... it needs a beginning. "
In this case, there is no theory, there is nothing. There is only a hypothetical notion that these effects may exist. Nothing else. In the same way as string theory, which is considered BS by many physisists because even if the math is right, there is nothing at all to the theory except the math

"It took years for people to validate that gravity could bend light. For a long time, it just sat as a set of expressions on paper.. Unthinkable...Untested."

Also complete bullshit. Gravity bending light was observed in 1919. Well before the equations of Genral Relativity were writen down to describe the effect. Physical Observation preceded the theory.

See? You don't even understand scientific history and how observation leads to theory which leads to better observation.
 
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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,123
14,491
146
Okay then, logical fallacies with this post.

Complete BS: "Our rate of technology growth and development is not linear, it is exponential. "

This is completely unquantifiable. If you're appealing to Moores law, Moores Law is linear. In exactly what branch of science is it advanciong exponentially?

"You assume because something that seems like it needs to scale hugely today, would be insurmountable in the future. Essentially, you are saying if something doesn't exist today, right in front of my face and I can't go out and test it right now, it can never be."

We do not have the abiltiy to produce energy on the level of the mass energy of jupiter. And will not for a very very VERY long time. Possibly never, because that's stupid.

Appeal to Authority
: "I'm not blindly accepting things. These are people smarter than both you and I with degrees and years of experience with these mathematics. "

That's EXACTLY what I mean about blindly accepting things. You're blindlgy accepting the theoretical notions of a small group of physists and you have absolutely no idea of the sceience involved in any of it. That's like the exact definition of the phrase.

"Things have to start somewhere. Whether it be a theory on paper, or because an apple falls on your head... it needs a beginning. "
In this case, there is no theory, there is nothing. There is only a hypothetical notion that these effects may exist. Nothing else.

"It took years for people to validate that gravity could bend light. For a long time, it just sat as a set of expressions on paper.. Unthinkable...Untested."

Also complete bullshit. Gravity bending light was observed in 1919. Well before the equations of Genral Relativity were writen down to describe the effect.

See? You don't even understand scientific history and how observation leads to theory which leads to better observation.

This thing on?
 

z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
10,004
63
91
Okay then, fallacies with this post.

Complete BS:

This is completely unquantifiable. If you're appealing to Moores law, Moores Law is linear. In exactly what branch of science is it advanciong exponentially? And even if it was, how do you quantify it? By how many scientific papers are produced on the subject? Because I assure you that it is not exponential



We do not have the abiltiy to produce energy on the level of the mass energy of jupiter. And will not for a very very VERY long time. Possibly never, because that's stupid.

Appeal to Authority


That's EXACTLY what I mean about blindly accepting things. You're blindlgy accepting the theoretical notions of a small group of physists and you have absolutely no idea of the sceience involved in any of it. That's like the exact definition of the phrase "blind acceptance".


In this case, there is no theory, there is nothing. There is only a hypothetical notion that these effects may exist. Nothing else. In the same way as string theory, which is considered BS by many physisists because even if the math is right, there is nothing at all to the theory except the math



Also complete bullshit. Gravity bending light was observed in 1919. Well before the equations of Genral Relativity were writen down to describe the effect. Physical Observation preceded the theory.

See? You don't even understand scientific history and how observation leads to theory which leads to better observation.

Methinks this is an exponential plot, not linear: (pic for those who can't see image due to work filters, etc)


And yes I'm extrapolating Moore's Law and applying it in general to our general rate of advancement in technology. Sure maybe it only applies to computer specific items, but on the whole I still think it applies.

They've set up a small scale test to prove out theory... What more would you like here?

Anyway, you remind me of the know- it- all engineers I work with on a daily basis, my fingers will fall off here before you'll alter your opinion. All I ever really meant to say was, this thing NASA is doing is good for science, it's good for humanity. Just because the ultimate goal may require energy levels or physics that we may not yet have or understand, does not simply mean it will not be realized at some point. Maybe not even in the next 50 years.. But at some point in human history.

If you can't at least agree with this, I'm sorry to say we shall agree to disagree, and let this go.
 
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mmntech

Lifer
Sep 20, 2007
17,501
12
0
A lot of this discussion is way over my head. All I can say is it may be possible in the future, but there's quite a few pieces of the puzzle we haven't figured out yet. Then again it may be impossible.

If a FTL engine is developed, it would be the single most important discovery of our species. So it's definitely something worth exploring. And if all else fails, at least the mockup would look pretty badass in a future sci-fi movie.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Ignoring the fact that natural nuclear reactors exist, a nuclear reactor was based off previously existing science that showed that it was possible to transmute one element to another because a physical experiment existed that did just that.

The idea of a single indivisble piece of matter was around for a while, since the greeks actually, and it was Dalton that formed atomic theory of matter in the 1800's. Also fission reactors never had a problem of scale, shown by the fact that fission reactors exist naturally on earth time scales. Also nuclear reactons happen ALL THE TIME in real life, stuff decays and changes. That's nuclear reactions happening constantly.

The science for exotic matters and warp effects exists PURELY at a theoretical level. Nuclear Reactors were based on physical experiments that eventally were understood theoretically. And really "Open your mind?" That's a dumb argument. Haing an open mind doesn't mean blindly accepting the hypotheticals of the first scientists to come around and say they can do something.

My response is "Learn some goddamn critical thinking skills". Science isn't done by just saying "ITS ALL POSSIBLE" and blindly accepting it, its done by trying to rip apart every claim that comes its way because otherwise, you just get junk data and junk experiemnts. Shit like cold fusion has been worked on for years, and we still haven't even gotten close to achieving it, even through many people ahve claimed they got it. For people who claim to "love" science, you have a very pathetic understanding of how it works.

So... I see you're not following. Please keep up with the tour group, it's quite important you don't get left behind.

They are performing small experiments that will quite likely lead to a solid knowledge of "this is possible with xxxxx energy" or "this is not possible at all, not with this tech at least". They are creating results, and are attempting to learn from those results.

We cannot ask for anything more, and we should NEVER prevent that. Do remember that NASA's budget is a pittance (they get the inflation rate* from the federal budget. yay them! much moneys, so amaze! :\), and then the budget for this propulsion research is even tinier.

What other kind of research should NASA be doing, exactly? This sounds exactly like what I want our federal-sponsored astrophysicists and engineers to work on.

Also - the research pointed out in this very thread has been repeatedly cited to likely result in not needing any "exotic matter."
So why, in this same thread, do people continue to debate the very concept of this science because "duh! exotic matter doesn't exist, or we'd have found it by now! This can't work without exotic matter!"... and yet, the very science being done is to prove (or disprove) that exact statement: can it be done with what we have?

It's like people want to argue against science merely for the sake of arguing against science. Do we want progress or not? Do we complete the experiments that we can, even if the hunch is a result that confirms what we already know? Or do we just refuse to carry out experiments, because it's all entirely pointless and we'll never do anything and we're stuck on this rock forever?

I mean, holy shit, let's at least let our good scientists try. We already have them completely underfunded, so it's not like we are wasting money investigating these measures. Our government wastes more money on real bullshit than NASA can ever dream of receiving.



Also: they've been consistently proving that fusion is within reach. Have you refused to read any news coverage of the various fusion research projects, especially at the National Ignition Facility at LLNL? They are making tremendous progress, when all facts are considered. It's not moving at the pace of fission research during the Manhattan Project days, but fusion is a little more involved due to certain physical realities.

They've also made significant strides at the JET facility, and have been, of late, mostly conducting experiments that are confirming that the ITER and future DEMO reactors are indeed the correct direction to go for practical fusion energy production.


edit:
* They don't even get the inflation rate. The NASA budget, expressed as a percentage of the federal budget, is roughly 0.5%. Inflation has varied between 1%-2% and higher.
 
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Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
106
Sure nice rant. I even agree with a lot of it.

So why does that mean we can do? It doesn't!

That's what the small scale lab experiment is for!

It simply means we have reason to believe that it's possible to design an experiment to investigate the phenomenon.

I personally think this is exactly the kind of scientific investigations NASA should be involved in.

We know that the universe is expanding even now, not only that but it's accelerating and we already have stars moving away from us at much faster than light.( due to the expansion of spacetime, these things are not moving faster than light through spacetime) This is the dark energy that is talked about. What dark energy is doing seems to be very different from what would be needed for the drive.

The problem I have with this is the way it's being presented. They have these 3d models of spaceships which is just stupid. While what they are actually doing is basic research to see if these loopholes actually exist and trying to detect it. If they are able to find something like exotic matter or that it doesn't need it, it will be huge news. This is just saying they are doing research into it.
 
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Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,912
2,146
126
Sure nice rant. I even agree with a lot of it.

However you seem to be ignoring that relativity says this effect is possible and our observations of the cosmic background radiation indicates the early universe did it.

So why does that mean we can do? It doesn't!

That's what the small scale lab experiment is for!

It simply means we have reason to believe that it's possible to design an experiment to investigate the phenomenon.

I personally think this is exactly the kind of scientific investigations NASA should be involved in.

Thank you.
 

Aharami

Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
21,205
165
106
The war-mongers, err I mean politicians will kill off the human race long before the scientists get to make this a reality
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,123
14,491
146
We know that the universe is expanding even now, not only that but it's accelerating and we already have stars moving away from us at much faster than light.( due to the expansion of spacetime, these things are not moving faster than light through spacetime) This is the dark energy that is talked about. What dark energy is doing seems to be very different from what would be needed for the drive.

The problem I have with this is the way it's being presented. They have these 3d models of spaceships which is just stupid. While what they are actually doing is basic research to see if these loopholes actually exist and trying to detect it. If they are able to find something like exotic matter or that it doesn't need it, it will be huge news. This is just saying they are doing research into it.

I think that's what's bother a lot of folks in this thread.


The models were done by professional artists with ties to both SciFi and NASA. Mike Okuda did some of the work and I know he's done NASA patches in the past as well as worked on Star trek. White provided them pointers based on his research.

Almost every program at NASA has aspirational models years before any metal is cut. It doesn't bother me anymore.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,912
2,146
126
We do not have the abiltiy to produce energy on the level of the mass energy of jupiter. And will not for a very very VERY long time. Possibly never, because that's stupid.
I don't know how many times this has to be explained to you that this much energy is no longer needed. They're shooting for 1600 lbs of mass. That's why NASA funded the research.

To summarize:

Jupiter-sized mass? NASA will pass.
Less than a ton? Warp drive fun.
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
106
I think that's what's bother a lot of folks in this thread.


The models were done by professional artists with ties to both SciFi and NASA. Mike Okuda did some of the work and I know he's done NASA patches in the past as well as worked on Star trek. White provided them pointers based on his research.

Almost every program at NASA has aspirational models years before any metal is cut. It doesn't bother me anymore.

it's not "year's" before the metal is cut. It has absolutely nothing to do with what they are doing.

They are making what they are doing out to be something that it isn't.
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
106
I don't know how many times this has to be explained to you that this much energy is no longer needed. They're shooting for 1600 lbs of mass. That's why NASA funded the research.

To summarize:

Jupiter-sized mass? NASA will pass.
Less than a ton? Warp drive fun.

what are they talking about when saying 1600 lbs of mass? Is it the same as when they were talking about the mass-energy of Jupiter, only it's not dropped down to 1600 lbs? If so that is still an insanely huge amount of energy, that is more than twice the the total global nuclear arsenal(30,000 nuclear warheads).

Hopefully that isn't what you are talking about
 
May 11, 2008
20,309
1,151
126
And they will call this ship Event Horizon, it will mysteriously disappear on its maiden voyage only to return 15 years later at which point we send Sam Neill and Morpheus to go fetch it.

Sounds like a plan :thumbsup:

How i love that movie. I find that movie so incredibly
 

kotss

Senior member
Oct 29, 2004
267
0
0
Also complete bullshit. Gravity bending light was observed in 1919. Well before the equations of General Relativity were written down to describe the effect. Physical Observation preceded the theory.

See? You don't even understand scientific history and how observation leads to theory which leads to better observation.

Perhaps you should do a little investigating into scientific history. General relativity was published in 1916 after 8 year of work by Einstein, the gravitational lensing observation was a confirmation of his theory. Check it out in any physics book on the subject or on Wikipedia.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,912
2,146
126
what are they talking about when saying 1600 lbs of mass? Is it the same as when they were talking about the mass-energy of Jupiter, only it's not dropped down to 1600 lbs? If so that is still an insanely huge amount of energy, that is more than twice the the total global nuclear arsenal(30,000 nuclear warheads).

Hopefully that isn't what you are talking about

They're saying they would need a mass of exotic matter that's 1600 lbs to power a ship's warp drive. They found out that they could change the geometry of the field to require much less mass. If we can find evidence of exotic matter, 1600 lbs might be feasible. This is why it is being studied.

Not created, not under construction...just studied.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
857
126
The shape in the middle looks a little like the ship in the movie version of Michael Crichton's "Sphere." The fin is not nearly so huge (it was the dominant feature in the Sphere ship), but I still see a resemblance.
 
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Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
106
They're saying they would need a mass of exotic matter that's 1600 lbs to power a ship's warp drive. They found out that they could change the geometry of the field to require much less mass. If we can find evidence of exotic matter, 1600 lbs might be feasible. This is why it is being studied.

Not created, not under construction...just studied.

Actually I did some more digging and it seems that it's 1600 lbs of "mass-energy" they use that since they don't know how the thing would be fueled. 1600 lbs is not that heavy, but the energy equivalent of that is absolutely massive as I pointed out in the previous post. I do enjoy this research being done, this is the sort of thing NASA should be doing. Not building these basic rockets to taxi stuff to low earth orbit.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,123
14,491
146
it's not "year's" before the metal is cut. It has absolutely nothing to do with what they are doing.

They are making what they are doing out to be something that it isn't.

Well I have to disagree a little with that.



What they are currently working


on is step 1 on the Technology Readiness Level.






While this:


Is actually step 9. While it's an artist work he's based it on Whites update to the Alcubierre warp theory.

NBC actually has a decent article on the art:

http://www.nbcnews.com/science/space/nasas-warp-drive-starship-enterprise-makes-virtual-splash-n128831

This rendering of the IXS Enterprise, created by Mark Rademaker, was used in a presentation by NASA's Harold White. It's based on White's theoretical work, with input from Star Trek graphic designer Michael Okuda.
 

phucheneh

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2012
7,306
5
0
Nikolae, keep fighting the good fight, brother.

Fritzo, I am disappoint. I think you're above using Ancient Aliens/America Unearthed logic.

'Can you prove that Europeans didn't colonize North America during the Crusades and build nuclear power plant pyramids through the magic of crystal skulls? I BET YOU CAN'T! HA!'

The other guy who wants to compare this to the invention of powered flight via airfoils...holy shit, you're just insane.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
I assumed that the rings were the rotating 'simulated gravity environment,' like on every long-distance spaceship concept ever.

But no, it says they are part of the 'warp drive.' Followed by exactly zero science (in the article...not watching the video).

Kindly explain how this is not dumb scifi-nerd bullshit.

seems you know nothing about the alcumbierre drive
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,123
14,491
146
Nikolae, keep fighting the good fight, brother.

Fritzo, I am disappoint. I think you're above using Ancient Aliens/America Unearthed logic.

'Can you prove that Europeans didn't colonize North America during the Crusades and build nuclear power plant pyramids through the magic of crystal skulls? I BET YOU CAN'T! HA!'

The other guy who wants to compare this to the invention of powered flight via airfoils...holy shit, you're just insane.

You talkin to me?
 
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