Warren Buffett sees a smarter fix for inequality than raising the minimum wage

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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I dont like the complicated playing with the numbers, or "pork" that helps one person but not somebody else ...

Tax credits is more or less plugging a hole in a sinking boat, but there are still lots of holes. Better to replace the hull.

So, are you saying you are not for government assistance?

A family that lives far away from a hospital that specializes in a thing that other hospitals do not may need to travel to that hospital. Right now they can write off the travel expenses. Are you saying you would not be for that or do you have another solution?
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,127
1,604
126
So, are you saying you are not for government assistance?

A family that lives far away from a hospital that specializes in a thing that other hospitals do not may need to travel to that hospital. Right now they can write off the travel expenses. Are you saying you would not be for that or do you have another solution?

No, I am not against government assistance. I would prefer for assisstance to be provided through its own spot on the budget, and handled close to "realtime" rather than at tax time.

For this particular case, all people who have medical related expenses should be able to itemize deductions for them, low income, medium income, high income .. doesn't matter.

I also support the idea of "basic income" and single payer national healthcare. Instead of taxing only middle class and wealthy and only benefitting extremely wealthy and poor, lets tax everybody, and try to come up with a system which works for everyone?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
No, I am not against government assistance. I would prefer for assisstance to be provided through its own spot on the budget, and handled close to "realtime" rather than at tax time.

For this particular case, all people who have medical related expenses should be able to itemize deductions for them, low income, medium income, high income .. doesn't matter.

I also support the idea of "basic income" and single payer national healthcare. Instead of taxing only middle class and wealthy and only benefitting extremely wealthy and poor, lets tax everybody, and try to come up with a system which works for everyone?

Are you worried about donations then? Usually the argument is made that a tax credit will give the incentive to donate more. So, take WWII for example. The government was spending a lot on the war. The gave people incentives to fill the gaps.

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2016/04/26/gov-deal-signs-tax-credit-bill-to-help-rural.html

Take that article for example. How do you feel about that?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
What do you think the minimum wage should be and why?

There shouldn't be a minimum wage. We shouldn't prevent people from doing value-add work just because it doesn't pay what Eskimospy thinks is a 'fair wage.' Telling people "I'd rather you be unemployed than do the work you're capable of at the wage you can receive for it" is a pretty shitty way of going about things. Besides being lousy policy to begin with such top-down attempts at control are doomed to fail in a gig based economy where a permanent job with a corporate employer is neither expected nor desired by many people in favor of task based work or alternative work arrangements like being a AirBnB host or Uber driver.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
I think the point of minimum wage should be that the wage should be high enough that a companies employees are not subsidized in anyway. Safety nets should exist but an employee person should not have to rely on them.

Currently the call for raising the minimum wage has been to lift all wages but I see no evidence of that being an effect of raising minimum wage.

And guess the real question we should ask ourselves is what is the issue? Is it the ability to meet a minimum standard of living or is it wealth disparity? Or wage stagnation? All cannot be fixed the same way.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
There shouldn't be a minimum wage. We shouldn't prevent people from doing value-add work just because it doesn't pay what Eskimospy thinks is a 'fair wage.' Telling people "I'd rather you be unemployed than do the work you're capable of at the wage you can receive for it" is a pretty shitty way of going about things. Besides being lousy policy to begin with such top-down attempts at control are doomed to fail in a gig based economy where a permanent job with a corporate employer is neither expected nor desired by many people in favor of task based work or alternative work arrangements like being a AirBnB host or Uber driver.

A gig economy is the result of a corporate economy not paying enough. What you are advocating for would simply exacerbate the situation what you are really advocating for is a race to the bottom. No thanks.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,127
1,604
126
Are you worried about donations then? Usually the argument is made that a tax credit will give the incentive to donate more. So, take WWII for example. The government was spending a lot on the war. The gave people incentives to fill the gaps.

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2016/04/26/gov-deal-signs-tax-credit-bill-to-help-rural.html

Take that article for example. How do you feel about that?

I guess at this point I should admit that its complicated, and a simple "this is bad" "this is good" approach is not a real/total solution. My personal opinion is that there is probably a better way to do this then though the tax code .. but, as a stop gap measure, or as a "make a bad thing less bad" it is certainly good.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
I think the point of minimum wage should be that the wage should be high enough that a companies employees are not subsidized in anyway. Safety nets should exist but an employee person should not have to rely on them.

Currently the call for raising the minimum wage has been to lift all wages but I see no evidence of that being an effect of raising minimum wage.

And guess the real question we should ask ourselves is what is the issue? Is it the ability to meet a minimum standard of living or is it wealth disparity? Or wage stagnation? All cannot be fixed the same way.

The real issue is how to improve the skillsets of millions of people so their value proposition to a potential employer meets or exceeds the minimum wage, whether that min wage is $15 or $1. Otherwise you're just conceding any hope of improving actual demand growth for labor and just trying to make paychecks incrementally better for the increasingly small percentage of people who have jobs.

If you're only looking at the wage paid to the worker and ignoring the economic value created by the worker who would get that wage, then your efforts will fail and no amount of calling people "greedy" for not employing people will work.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
A gig economy is the result of a corporate economy not paying enough. What you are advocating for would simply exacerbate the situation what you are really advocating for is a race to the bottom. No thanks.

Thanks for exactly illustrating my point and being that guy who restates what I just said, "I'd rather you be unemployed than do the work you're capable of at the wage you can receive for it."
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I guess at this point I should admit that its complicated, and a simple "this is bad" "this is good" approach is not a real/total solution. My personal opinion is that there is probably a better way to do this then though the tax code .. but, as a stop gap measure, or as a "make a bad thing less bad" it is certainly good.

That's totally fair. I'm a free market guy, but, I also don't want to let people suffer. Charity and donations I think would cover most if not all, but that is not the system we set up. We cant just do away with things overnight that people have come to expect to be there. I think far too often tax credits are used as a way to benefit the rich. It sure seems like there are a lot more loopholes for those at the top like tax credits.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
The real issue is how to improve the skillsets of millions of people so their value proposition to a potential employer meets or exceeds the minimum wage, whether that min wage is $15 or $1.

This simply may not be possible anymore. Almost any job that you could train millions of people for that would have a value proposition to a potential employer that exceeds the minimum wage would almost certainly be able to be done cheaper by a machine. As you train millions of people to do that job the value of the job naturally drops. What is valuable to a corporation is not the skills themselves but the rarity of them. Once a skill is no longer rare it is no longer valuable.

Our economy, and every economy, is still based on the idea that you need lots of hands to do jobs, some skilled and some not. But all that has changed. Now most jobs can be done with very few hands, and we are needing fewer and fewer every year. But those hands have not gone away.

If you're only looking at the wage paid to the worker and ignoring the economic value created by the worker who would get that wage, then your efforts will fail and no amount of calling people "greedy" for not employing people will work.

Most workers generate many time more value than their pay.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
This simply may not be possible anymore. Almost any job that you could train millions of people for that would have a value proposition to a potential employer that exceeds the minimum wage would almost certainly be able to be done cheaper by a machine. As you train millions of people to do that job the value of the job naturally drops. What is valuable to a corporation is not the skills themselves but the rarity of them. Once a skill is no longer rare it is no longer valuable.

Our economy, and every economy, is still based on the idea that you need lots of hands to do jobs, some skilled and some not. But all that has changed. Now most jobs can be done with very few hands, and we are needing fewer and fewer every year. But those hands have not gone away.



Most workers generate many time more value than their pay
.

That is the problem. How do you justify creating a position that is below minimum wage? If you do believe some people are worth less, then do you still pay them?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
This simply may not be possible anymore. Almost any job that you could train millions of people for that would have a value proposition to a potential employer that exceeds the minimum wage would almost certainly be able to be done cheaper by a machine. As you train millions of people to do that job the value of the job naturally drops. What is valuable to a corporation is not the skills themselves but the rarity of them. Once a skill is no longer rare it is no longer valuable.

Our economy, and every economy, is still based on the idea that you need lots of hands to do jobs, some skilled and some not. But all that has changed. Now most jobs can be done with very few hands, and we are needing fewer and fewer every year. But those hands have not gone away.

I disagree. There's potentially millions of employers including those who support $15/hour minimum wage who would hire people to perform various services that don't require "rare" skills. Things like meal preparation, housecleaning, dog walking, etc. are all prime candidates to have someone do it for you, but very few people are going to assume the expenses and liabilities of being an employer for what they would consider a marginal value-add activity.

Again, it's about finding a price equilibrium between demand and supply of labor at the lower end of skills. Lots of people want to use min wage as a hammer against "greedy employers" who won't pay "livable wages" but all you're doing is preventing people from getting those kinds of jobs. If you'd rather someone be unemployed than work cheaply then you're getting your wish.

Most workers generate many time more value than their pay.

I'd quibble about "many times" more value but yes, there will need to be a decent amount of surplus economic value created by a potential employee for them to get hired as there are many costs and liabilities associated with employees. Most progressives won't hire people to do housecleaning at $15/hour because they are making the unspoken calculation that wage isn't enough of a multiple over what they value their own time at. If they were valuing their own time at say $1,000/hour you know damn well they'd happily pay someone $15/hour to clean their toilets. But they don't so that person doesn't get hired because just like the evil corporation they know that person's labor isn't worth that wage.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
Thanks for exactly illustrating my point and being that guy who restates what I just said, "I'd rather you be unemployed than do the work you're capable of at the wage you can receive for it."

But a minimum wage is a business constraint that drives innovation!

 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
But a minimum wage is a business constraint that drives innovation!


Sure it does, for example we have innovations like a wide array of microwavable foods to avoid paying cooks, EZ Pass to avoid paying tollbooth attendants, Amazon reviews to avoid paying salespeople, RFID tags to replace barcodes which replaced paper price tags, the list goes on.


The one constant at every point is that innovation requires more of the fewer workers who receive higher wages in turn. Going from hunter-gatherers to agriculture required higher planning and reasoning skills, agriculture to industrial revolution required reading, information age required computer literacy, and so forth. We didn't go from being subsistence level Neanderthals to modern man by passing ever higher minimum wage laws, but rather because those who didn't improve their skills got left behind. It will be the same way in the 21st century as it was the 12th, but only now the uneducated rabble have an expectation that they can stay stupid yet still maintain middle class lifestyles.
 

-slash-

Senior member
Jan 21, 2014
361
1
41
Then we don't need to raise minimum wage. If people that should make $15/hour already are, why do we need a law to mandate it?

Precisely. If someones worth $15/hr and the business can support the wage, most people are being paid that wage. If they're not they generally leave to find a business that will.

I love all the focus on large corporations like McDonalds who are greedy and can afford the wage increase while the smaller businesses are ignored. Not all small businesses can support this wage hike. Well established ones yes, but newer businesses or ones who are under new management to bring them out of a hole will suffer greatly.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
Sure it does, for example we have innovations like a wide array of microwavable foods to avoid paying cooks, EZ Pass to avoid paying tollbooth attendants, Amazon reviews to avoid paying salespeople, RFID tags to replace barcodes which replaced paper price tags, the list goes on.

The one constant at every point is that innovation requires more of the fewer workers who receive higher wages in turn. Going from hunter-gatherers to agriculture required higher planning and reasoning skills, agriculture to industrial revolution required reading, information age required computer literacy, and so forth. We didn't go from being subsistence level Neanderthals to modern man by passing ever higher minimum wage laws, but rather because those who didn't improve their skills got left behind. It will be the same way in the 21st century as it was the 12th, but only now the uneducated rabble have an expectation that they can stay stupid yet still maintain middle class lifestyles.

This is an excellent development, no? The goal of technology after all is 100% unemployment. If we used to need someone to stand at a toll booth all day and now we can do it entirely through EZ Pass, that's a significant net benefit to society. If the thing that's holding back the development of these technologies is a place's ability to pay people below subsistence wages that require the government to pick up the slack then we should implement a considerably higher minimum wage immediately and reap the benefits.

As for fewer workers that get higher wages due to automation freeing up tons of people for other things, that's a good problem to have and one that can be solved fairly easily through public policy.

Thanks glenn for your support of this idea!
 

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
137
106
What Buffett is saying is that he wants the government to go further into debt to give handouts to the poor. That's a real shocker! He is a buyer of that debt, so he is just talking his book.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
What Buffett is saying is that he wants the government to go further into debt to give handouts to the poor. That's a real shocker! He is a buyer of that debt, so he is just talking his book.

The state is already taking care of the people. The difference is that this shifts the incentives to get people to work and get government money, vs not working and getting government money.
 
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