Was Colonialism a good thing?

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yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
It's always an interesting tossup of pros and cons. Probably more cons in the end but I'm sure it's case-by-case. Good discussion.
 

Possessed Freak

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 1999
6,045
1
0
Socioeconomically, yes colonialism was good for India. At the time, the population would probably disagree with this.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
People defended slavery by comparing the benefits to leaving the slaves in Africa.

There are benefits to exploitation - and prices, including freedom.

In a perfect world, the end of colonization would include 'real independance' for nations to develop.

But in the real word, it usually doesn't.

The primary goal of colonization was the exploitation of a nation's resources cheaply. On the other hand, the primary goal of post-colonial poicy is the exploitation of a nation's resources cheaply.

The methods change.The tradeoffs change. The costs to the dominant nations - colonial forces, rebellious wars - change.

Not many have much of a clue about the policies. The CIA isn't acting to ensure malleable corporate-serving governments around the world, it's collecting data for its factbook.

Some of the drive for colonialism was actually a misplaced progressive ideal. A belief that it was the duty of the "white man" to help his less fortunate man to learn the benefits of the white man's farming techniques and industrialization. The white man did intend to make money off of this effort, but that is no more exploitation than giving a homeless man a job he is good at is exploitation. Some countries were all about exploitation, but not all of them. Such as John Stuart Mill's view of the British Empire: "a better government: more complete security of property, moderate taxes, a more permanent ... tenure of land ... the introduction of foreign arts ... and the introduction of foreign capital, which renders the increase of production no longer exclusively dependant on the thrift or providence of the inhabitants themselves."

Not only that, but in some places it was helpful. The American Empire in the Philippines nearly wiped out cholera, greatly reduced malaria, and almost wiped out smallpox.

The problem is that some helped, some hurt. Some were honestly attempts at helping, some were merely attempts at getting money out of the locals. The results are not well correlated.
Any country that had it's people "exploited" through investing in their productivity probably did well for both parties. In other words the rich made money by making the poor richer. Exploiting a country by digging stuff out of its ground is almost always a recipe for disaster, the people's interests and the rich's interests are almost totally opposite of one another, except perhaps in the area of the natives health. On the other hand, the beneficient rulers who wanted to honestly help, success is dependant on their competence. That would probably be random, although I doubt it is a common trait for someone to be competent at improving a society.

As an interesting note, foreign aid is a lot like colonial control in many ways. We tie so many strings to the aid that we are almost in control of the countries. Unfortunately, here it appears that good intentions seem to be more important than actual results. There are several studies done on how beneficial aid is, some find it harmful, others find it beneficial, yet others find it does squat. I think the view that I find the most convincing is that it is good up to a point. Michael Clemens, Steven Radelet, Rikhil Bhavnani from the Center for Global Development found that when aid is over 8% of a countries total GDP it is harmful to that countries economic growth. However, the Millenium Project, the UN, and the World Bank all advocate pushing the amount of aid well over that mark. They also found no support that aid is helpful in the long term for a country, but they did find that it is very helpful in the short term.

It's always an interesting tossup of pros and cons. Probably more cons in the end but I'm sure it's case-by-case. Good discussion.

It is always very interesting, but it is so hard to determine what is a cause, and what is not. So few control groups, so much variety, and so little information that in the end a lot of conclusions are biased from the viewers point of view going in. I know that my view is probably more biased than it should be.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Overtaxation
Endentured servants
Starvation
No protection from home country
Native indian wars
French Used natives to fight against british
Endentured colonials into the british forces
Natives kill rape and pillage unprotected Homesteads
Eventual Civil War

So would you have called this Good?

Then study South Africa

Then study areas like Japan colonizing South Korea

One man's colony is another mans occupation forces.
 

Cattykit

Senior member
Nov 3, 2009
521
0
0
Chris Rock's line:
'If you have an uncle that raped you but helped you with tuition, would you be thankful?'

If you do, I tell you it's Stockholm Syndrome taking place.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
The world is not black and white and there is no black and white answer to OP's question. Colonialists always come from more advance society with more resources and structure. Naturally they bring in new technology, social/economic structure and knowledge. However, the goal of colonists are to profit from the new world. So of course they will use their power for their own gains in the expense of locals.

Is colonialism a good thing? Everything is relative, so that depends on what you compare colonialism to. Compare foreign blood suckers to local blood suckers, foreign blood suckers may be better since they at least bring new and better technology and knowledge to the local society. But if you have strong, ethical and democratic local government, of course that beats colonialism everyday.
 

Whitecloak

Diamond Member
May 4, 2001
6,074
2
0
the alternate would have been india languishing under mughal rule. If the brits hadnt colonized us, we would probably be an islamic nation today.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
So in other words you found a journalist and a language professor and dismiss peer reviewed historians as 'pro-imperialism'. That makes no sense unless your only goal is to demonize the British. Which seems entirely probable since you also ignore other great empires, their conquests, and destruction and solely focus on Brits. Also you Ignore modern genocides we should be drawing attention to which can actually be stopped. Not just here either almost every post. So what's the deal?

So in other words you found nothing and you're also making stuff up. A Nobel Prize winning Economist and one of the most influential professor/academic in the world seems to be quite the authority. I have no idea who this language professor you're referring to is...

I see no peer-reviewed articles from you, so I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. Honestly, I never even knew that historians had articles peer-reviewed since it seems they focus on books instead. It's not in the sciences. However, Sen has obviously had his work peer-reviewed

I don't understand why anyone would bring up modern genocides when talking about history. That's like me asking why you're not talking about sexual slavery in a thread about the federal bail-out.

Your post makes no sense unless your goal is to celebrate the British atrocities, much like neo-Nazis celebrate Hitler.

Demonizing the Nazis is acceptable yet for some reason you think demonizing the British is not even though they were much more destructive. It's an interesting phenomenon. What's the deal?
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
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I have no love for Brits buy Lawrence was a man for all peoples like we all should be. Are you Indian?

I think I found where bias lies and desire to blame all things on Brits -

No, I'm not Indian. Are you of British/European descent? That may explain why you seem to intent on denying genocide.
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
For India "Colonialism" was a very good thing. I have 3 reasons for that:
(All considering Britishers never ruled India)

1.The modern Infrastructure of Rails and Roads would have very likely not been there in 1947.

2. "India" would have been much smaller geographically. No one united India like the Britishers, Southern and Eastern India would have been separate countries.

3. India (north central which would have been a separate country) would have become a "Muslim nation".

If the british had not plundered a trillion dollars, dont you think the indian rulers wouldnt have built a railway system. I mean going from one quarter of the worlds GDP in the 1800 to < 2 percent in the span of maybe 100 years. That is what the british did.

The modern infrastructure that you talk about was specifically put in place to move troops and supplies quickly. how else do you think 50,0000 British Citizens ruled over about 400 million people.

2. The hindu kings of India at the time when east india company came begging for rights in bengal, were killing the muslim rulers and consolidating their empires. Then came the grreat policy of Divide and Rule that thebritish implemented, which blew apart the emerging Indian kings who were consolidating power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:India1760_1905.jpg

3. The Rajputs and the Sikhs were kicking ass in afghanistan and kicking out the muslim kings and pushing them out of India when the British fucked them all up. so I am not sure, if there would have been a separate country.

First problem is believing the stupid NCERT text books which do not talk abt old history but white washed histrory. Those JNU communist bastards who set the standards of Indian education should be castrated and hung to dry
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
2,038
23
81
the alternate would have been india languishing under mughal rule. If the brits hadnt colonized us, we would probably be an islamic nation today.

You say that as though it would be a bad thing [India being Muslim majority].
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,540
16
0
Not only that, but in some places it was helpful. The American Empire in the Philippines nearly wiped out cholera, greatly reduced malaria, and almost wiped out smallpox.

Of course before that happened, the Philippine–American War killed a million civilians in the worst atrocities ever committed by the US military.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,774
919
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Those were different than what the British did. The british ruled with thier white power racist fists - oppressing non-white minorities. While the Arabs only sought to spread Islam, the Mongols to spread buddhism and the Japanese to force racism out of Asia [the british].

Oh that's rich. Most of those the Japanese killed in that period were fellow Asians

The sheer volume of murdered civilians posed a formidable logistical challenge when it came to disposing of the bodies. Many Chinese were conscripted into "burial teams", an experience they would later recall as horrifically traumatic.

The truth of the matter is, you don't conquer a people because you like them and want to make them your friends. When people are in power over those different than them, bad things are going to happen.

How many other empires would have the Indian method of non-violent resistance worked? I would doubt any. I don't see the Japanese or Nazis of WW2 having any qualms of just slaughtering those that would resist.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
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I am at heart what one might call a cultural imperialist. I believe in the superiority of Western civilization and values, and I absolutely reject the idea that all cultures are equally valid, just different. That being said, I'm also a realist about the futility of trying to fix or improve inferior societies. I wish that we could drag places like Afghanistan into the 21st century, but real life experience has shown that it simply doesn't work. In principal I think that colonialism could have been a good thing under some circumstances, but in reality you can't force people into the modern world.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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For the UK it was most certainly not.

For nations like India... It was the best they could ever have hoped for.

If the UK had stayed true to it's people rather than the church things would be a lot different.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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I am at heart what one might call a cultural imperialist. I believe in the superiority of Western civilization and values, and I absolutely reject the idea that all cultures are equally valid, just different. That being said, I'm also a realist about the futility of trying to fix or improve inferior societies. I wish that we could drag places like Afghanistan into the 21st century, but real life experience has shown that it simply doesn't work. In principal I think that colonialism could have been a good thing under some circumstances, but in reality you can't force people into the modern world.

I agree, an inferior scared to sheits about what the next threat might be and quick to give up freedom and rights as well as privacy US should not be an influence on sane nations like Canada, UK or Germany.

Afghanistan COULD have been a pretty good democracy by now if the US didn't just fuck it up leave and let the Talibans take over while instituting a government of no people to do what the US wanted.

It's gone now, Afghanistan is a failure because the US wanted to invade Iraq and removed all air support when the Taliban and ALL of Al Quaida were cornered, it's like... Let's not win this one.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
You say that as though it would be a bad thing [India being Muslim majority].

LOL you mean besides the Inshallah Fatalism that prevents all economic progress, hard work and innovation? Or the millions of victims who are deemed not quite Muslim enough? Or the banning of all things unislamic? Or believing in fairies and men in the sky? I guess nothing wrong with it.
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I am at heart what one might call a cultural imperialist. I believe in the superiority of Western civilization and values, and I absolutely reject the idea that all cultures are equally valid, just different. That being said, I'm also a realist about the futility of trying to fix or improve inferior societies. I wish that we could drag places like Afghanistan into the 21st century, but real life experience has shown that it simply doesn't work. In principal I think that colonialism could have been a good thing under some circumstances, but in reality you can't force people into the modern world.

They are too whether they admit it or not, that's why they move in droves to Western countries and many remaining in their own see benefit of hard fought freedoms and mixed economies as this story points out. Japan is another they would like to move to but they don't anyone in.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
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They are too whether they admit it or not, that's why they move in droves to Western countries and many remaining in their own see benefit of hard fought freedoms and mixed economies as this story points out. Japan is another they would like to move to but they don't anyone in.

I was thinking that the birth rate in Western countries is so low because they see no future in Western civilization and values for their children.
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
2,038
23
81
I was thinking that the birth rate in Western countries is so low because they see no future in Western civilization and values for their children.

Or, western countries treat thier women like humans and not like baby factories. Getting a education and working, and using condoms to have managable sized families kind of takes a toll on birth rate.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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I was thinking that the birth rate in Western countries is so low because they see no future in Western civilization and values for their children.

I think it has more to do with being able to support your child before you have it, unlike places like India and Darfur.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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Or, western countries treat thier women like humans and not like baby factories. Getting a education and working, and using condoms to have managable sized families kind of takes a toll on birth rate.

Even rape is outlawed here, unlike in India and Darfur.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
Of course before that happened, the Philippine–American War killed a million civilians in the worst atrocities ever committed by the US military.

The question was about whether or not colonialism was a good thing. In some cases there were actual improvements in the colonial subject. I would consider nearly wiping out those diseases a net benefit when balanced against several million killed, but it is just a guess. Furthermore, it may be a net benefit, but it takes some damn strong benefits to outweigh a few measly "statistics" in the Stalin form of the word.
 
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