Was the universe tailor made for life?

[Kadarin]

The universe with its present set of natural laws doesn't necessarily exist for the purpose of allowing life to exist. Life could simply have evolved because the conditions happen to allow it.

No "God" necessary.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
this is the biggest reason why i believe that god exists.
conditions were too "perfect" and chances are too small for everything to just come together the way it did.

Well lots of non-perfect situations could of arose as well, but if they did you wouldn't know about them because nothing became of them.

exactly.
think about how many things have to go right in order to have life the way it is today.
i can fathom a few things happening by chance, but to have basically countless events happen in succession is a bit too much to believe.

then your God has to be fallible, and simply potent. Why would an omnipotent God create so many mistakes?

boredom?

what mistakes were made?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
what mistakes were made?

Who runs a sewer line through a recreation area?

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
what mistakes were made?

Who runs a sewer line through a recreation area?

Or...

DNA Degradation
Our primary energy sources pollouting earth
Strange diseases (especially the immune response based ones)
Natural disasters

A number of things.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
what mistakes were made?

Who runs a sewer line through a recreation area?

Or...

DNA Degradation
Our primary energy sources pollouting earth
Strange diseases (especially the immune response based ones)
Natural disasters

A number of things.

who says those were mistakes?

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Do I have to dig up Douglas Adams' wonderful puddle analogy AGAIN?

Puddle.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: ElFenix

The chances of our universe existing are along the lines of thowing millions of letter blocks in the air and having them land stacked up and spelling out the complete works of Shakespeare

with the mutliverse theory the chance of our universe and a nearly infinite number of similar universes existing basically equals 1.

Probability doesn't quite work like that.

Large number law.

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
what mistakes were made?

Who runs a sewer line through a recreation area?

Or...

DNA Degradation
Our primary energy sources pollouting earth
Strange diseases (especially the immune response based ones)
Natural disasters

A number of things.

who says those were mistakes?

Yeah, God works in 'mysterious ways' :roll:

 

[joesmoke]

seems pretty pointless to know now that the robots are taking over...

 

[AnnonUSA]

Originally posted by: Fritzo
It seems to be an incredible coincidence that everything is "just so" so that we can be here.

I tend to think of it as we are here just because Everything is "Just So"...

When looked at in this perspective... the whole Intelligent Design argument tends to lose plausibility.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

I know this was posted above, but this the key paragraph

Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.

- Douglas Adams

RIP- A great man and writer.

In other words, its meaningless to make the argument that the world was tailor made for us. We evolved to fit it no the other way around.

 

[dr150]

You people are all IDIOTS!

We are the center of the Universe and the only one that supports life, because God made us in his image.

If you don't believe me, ASK the Pope!

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: tenshodo13
I know this was posted above, but this the key paragraph

Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.

- Douglas Adams

RIP- A great man and writer.

In other words, its meaningless to make the argument that the world was tailor made for us. We evolved to fit it no the other way around.

I don't think you understood the point of the article. It's saying that are universe may be a super rare "stable" universe. Most created universes may be voids- but only those that develop a structure will inevetibly produce some form of life in it. Structure = Must create life.

 

[SagaLore]

I think everything in our reality is based on a 50/50 chance.

We had a 50/50 chance of existing. We won that toss.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: tenshodo13
I know this was posted above, but this the key paragraph

Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.

- Douglas Adams

RIP- A great man and writer.

In other words, its meaningless to make the argument that the world was tailor made for us. We evolved to fit it no the other way around.

I don't think you understood the point of the article. It's saying that are universe may be a super rare "stable" universe. Most created universes may be voids- but only those that develop a structure will inevetibly produce some form of life in it. Structure = Must create life.

I know thats what it means. We happened to evolve in a Universe that could support the evolution of life as we know it

 

[AstroManLuca]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
I think everything in our reality is based on a 50/50 chance.

We had a 50/50 chance of existing. We won that toss.

So the chances of the universe ceasing to exist due to a random quantum event at any given moment are 50/50? We're beating some pretty amazing odds if that's the case.

 

[SSSnail]

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=38&threadid=2290331

Oh yeah? So you think we're special huh? Out of the bajillion of systems and planets, we're the ONLY living creatures. If everything was perfect for life as you put it, then there would be life EVERYWHERE, so they all can bow down to your almighty god(s).

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: child of wonder

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

Originally posted by: TruePaige

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
this is the biggest reason why i believe that god exists.
conditions were too "perfect" and chances are too small for everything to just come together the way it did.

Well lots of non-perfect situations could of arose as well, but if they did you wouldn't know about them because nothing became of them.

exactly.
think about how many things have to go right in order to have life the way it is today.
i can fathom a few things happening by chance, but to have basically countless events happen in succession is a bit too much to believe.

But when you start to imagine how many billions of galaxies there are, each with billions of suns, and that space seems to go on and on for over 12 billion light years and it's possible that all matter explodes and contracts in cycles (Big Bang, implosion, repeat) over eternity and has done so billions of times or that there are multiverses... the number of chances for the odds that we'd be here right now typing on an internet chat forum seems much more possible.

still seems rather amazing that we have everything around us that sustains life.
and not just life, but intelligent life. look at our technology. how come no other creatures (on earth) have our intelligence. how come we're the only ones that "evolved" intelligence.

in addition to that, our ability to reason, to love, to hate, to reproduce, just everything seems to impossible to give credit to chance.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
still seems rather amazing that we have everything around us that sustains life.
and not just life, but intelligent life. look at our technology. how come no other creatures (on earth) have our intelligence. how come we're the only ones that "evolved" intelligence.

in addition to that, our ability to reason, to love, to hate, to reproduce, just everything seems to impossible to give credit to chance.

GOTO PUDDLE

If the Universe wasn't in a state such that it could allow for life to form, we wouldn't be here saying, "Gosh, it's absolutely impossible for us to be here!"

And really, 99.9999999....% of the Universe's volume is utterly hostile to us. Even look at our own planet - life really only inhabits a thin coating on the surface. Most of its volume is just liquid rock and metal. And then in that film are life forms which hunt and consume other life forms as a means of survival. It's only perfect if you're not the one dying by disease, predator, or exposure.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
still seems rather amazing that we have everything around us that sustains life.
and not just life, but intelligent life. look at our technology. how come no other creatures (on earth) have our intelligence. how come we're the only ones that "evolved" intelligence.

in addition to that, our ability to reason, to love, to hate, to reproduce, just everything seems to impossible to give credit to chance.

GOTO PUDDLE

If the Universe wasn't in a state such that it could allow for life to form, we wouldn't be here saying, "Gosh, it's absolutely impossible for us to be here!"

And really, 99.9999999....% of the Universe's volume is utterly hostile to us. Even look at our own planet - life really only inhabits a thin coating on the surface. Most of its volume is just liquid rock and metal. And then in that film are life forms which hunt and consume other life forms as a means of survival. It's only perfect if you're not the one dying by disease, predator, or exposure.

explain intelligence, emotions, why we're the only intelligent beings.

 

[SSSnail]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98OTsYfTt-c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

 

[NikolaeVarius]

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
still seems rather amazing that we have everything around us that sustains life.
and not just life, but intelligent life. look at our technology. how come no other creatures (on earth) have our intelligence. how come we're the only ones that "evolved" intelligence.

in addition to that, our ability to reason, to love, to hate, to reproduce, just everything seems to impossible to give credit to chance.

GOTO PUDDLE

If the Universe wasn't in a state such that it could allow for life to form, we wouldn't be here saying, "Gosh, it's absolutely impossible for us to be here!"

And really, 99.9999999....% of the Universe's volume is utterly hostile to us. Even look at our own planet - life really only inhabits a thin coating on the surface. Most of its volume is just liquid rock and metal. And then in that film are life forms which hunt and consume other life forms as a means of survival. It's only perfect if you're not the one dying by disease, predator, or exposure.

explain intelligence, emotions, why we're the only intelligent beings.

Define intelligence. Humans aren't the only animals that display emotion. Dogs. monkeys, baboons all exhibit emotions.

Other animals are capable of communication. Bees, through dance are able to convey, direction to food, quality of the food, how far the food is all without speaking a single word.

Chimps demonstrate cognition, and are able to use tools and plan courses of action

There's evidence that Dolphins and many other animals are self aware, as indicated by mirror experiments and are capable of complex actions.

The world is full of animals who are intelligent. We just happened to have developed a more complex brain. But we are still an animal.

 

[imported_six]

The counter argument to this would be the Infinite Monkey Theorem: that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

explain intelligence, emotions, why we're the only intelligent beings.

IMO there's only one thing that needs to be explained. Where did the desire to propagate genes come from? All those things you mention can easily be explained as increasingly complex methods to achieve that simple end. What caused the very first life form to have this drive that we still see in ourselves? It had to have it, or else there would have been no life forms following it. That was it's only purpose. It's still OUR only purpose.

Perhaps the first life form was simply a molecular catalyst which, through contact with outside molecules that made it up, was able to assemble copies of itself. How could that have transcended chemistry to become purpose? It's strange to think that the prime motivation behind everything that we are and everything we do is a chemical reaction that was as unavoidable, when the right components were in proximity, as hitting the ground when you fall from a height. I don't know the answer. Chances are, notions of a creating deity notwithstanding, neither do you.

 

[Jeff7]

Tenshodo13 beat me to it.

We're also one of the few animals with egos, one of the few animals that thinks we're so damned special.

We're the most intellectually advanced species because we happened to be a bit ahead in the evolutionary race. (At least we are at this point in time.) At one point in time, I'm sure there were fairly intelligent dinosaurs (not human-level, but advanced for their kind). They certainly won the evolutionary race, didn't they? Though if longevity is the measure of success, and not intelligence, various reptiles are doing much better than us primates. Crocodiles have been pretty much the same way for hundreds of millions of years. Why don't they get credit for that?

And emotions aren't really anything special. They're a set of conditions that help dictate a life form's behavior. If things are going well for a life form, its nervous system helps provide it with the means to keep it feeling good - a reward system, a way of saying, "Whatever you're doing now, keep doing it and you'll probably survive more easily." We just happen to have bigger brains, and so we experience more complexity with things like emotions.

It's interesting too to ponder what we might be like to a life form, perhaps such as our own species, which were a million years more advanced. Think of how fast technology has progressed for us, and advance that by a million years. We'd look like insects to such beings. To them, we would have no more intelligence than we'd see in an ant. "Intelligent" is a very relative term. We view ourselves as highly intelligent because this tiny planet, and our very short time spent on it, are the only things we have to compare ourselves to.

"If it?s true that our species is alone in the universe, then I?d have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little." - George Carlin

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

explain intelligence, emotions, why we're the only intelligent beings.

IMO there's only one thing that needs to be explained. Where did the desire to propagate genes come from? All those things you mention can easily be explained as increasingly complex methods to achieve that simple end. What caused the very first life form to have this drive that we still see in ourselves? It had to have it, or else there would have been no life forms following it. That was it's only purpose. It's still OUR only purpose.
...

It's by the same process as natural selection, of course.
Life forms that simply happened to have some slightly more powerful drive to breed, by way of some sort of mutations or genetic anomalies, were more likely to produce more offspring.

If you're all, "OMG OMG OMG MATE MATE MATE MUST MATE!" while your buddy's all "Yeah...whatever, I'm kind of hungry right now," you're the one who's going to be having 300 kids a year, while ol' lazy buddy's genes die alone.

Perhaps the first life form was simply a molecular catalyst which, through contact with outside molecules that made it up, was able to assemble copies of itself. How could that have transcended chemistry to become purpose? It's strange to think that the prime motivation behind everything that we are and everything we do is a chemical reaction that was as unavoidable, when the right components were in proximity, as hitting the ground when you fall from a height. I don't know the answer. Chances are, notions of a creating deity notwithstanding, neither do you.

It became "purpose" when we called it that.
Before we came along, it was simply how nature operated. Business as usual. Why does hydrogen burn and create water? Why do light elements fuse in stellar cores? There's no "purpose" there - it's just what things in this Universe happen to do.