Watched a few religious channels and now I think I understand

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: moshquerade

I have never been in any church where anyone said, "God needs money".
At the church I go to there is a collection at every mass. It is voluntary. It is not a "membership fee" that you have to pay to remain a member. The minister/priest/pastor rarely mentions the collection except when they are collecting for something extra like for right to life, missionary work, etc. I have never been pressured to give.

Then you go to odd churches. I spent 12 years in Catholic schools and we were all most assuredly pressured to give. Every single day there was a strong request for more money or more time. You were expected to donate at mass, you were expected to sell raffle tickets, you had a quota of candy to sell, you were expected to volunteer for various tasks around the school and church, every family was pressured in hundreds of ways to pony up more cash and more free time so that the church could make more profit.

I still find it funny that churches need money at all. You believe that the invisible man in the sky has ultimate power of life and death over every person and utterly controls what happens on earth, but it doesn't bother you that the guy can't handle a checkbook. He CAN feed the poor and hungry with manna from heaven, but he wants you to pay for it instead. Truly and utterly astounding. Yep, the almighty created light with 4 simple words, but if you want the lights on in the church where you worship him you have to pay for it. He can't say "Let there be light in my churches", eh? Would that be too hard for him? He can surely take 1/10th of a second to say the words to make that happen for all eternity, but it's better if the church collects money every day instead. ROFL!

Why do you feel the need to push your beliefs (or should I say non-beliefs?) onto others, but have shit fits if anyone were to push their beliefs onto you? That is what you are doing.
I am not in this thread telling anyone to believe in God, but you and others feel the persistent need to ridicule anyone who doesn't feel as you do about religion. It's quite hypocritical.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Madwand1

Originally posted by: Modelworks
I understand why people are turning away from religion. I haven't been to church in probably 7 years, but I remain somewhat religious.

Why haven't you been to church in 7 years? While your point about sham religion on television is certainly valid, I think the more interesting question would be whether or not you see that the mainstream religions have also turned away people from religion as a consequence of their specific interpretations and dictates which no longer mesh with a wider view of the world and its people.

Mainly because I have moved around a lot and haven't taken the time to check out the local churches. I don't have a problem with most churches , but the problem with these people on tv is that they are more likely to be the first experience someone has with religion and they are going to leave people with a very bad impression of it.

If you take out away the people who like to twist religion into something it is not then what remains is a very rewarding way of life. Unfortunately when people discuss religion they tend to use people like I watched as the example that all people involved in religion are like this. What needs to be done is a culling of the flock before the few infect the whole.

As I said, I am not against religion. I am against these idiots pushing there own personal agenda and calling it religion.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: waggy
and nearly EVERY TV ministry is a frickne quack.

Anyone who believes in religion is a quack. The TV ministers have simply found a way to monetize it.

I'm not a quack.

Do you believe in Santa Claus?

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: seemingly random

The catholic church is on the grounds of a jesuit high school in a large city in ohio. Maybe it's those damn jesuits taking liberties...

I'm not stunned anymore by the lengths the religious go towards defending their rituals. Maybe dissappointed, but not stunned. Now if I heard that they had gone back to blood sacrifices of ancient civilizations, I would be stunned.

We aren't going to come to common ground on this one. I do appreciate you being civil.

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that you quit giving to your church or give up religion. That would be rude and pretentious. It's not for me and I find it kind of silly but I'm sure some would find some of my actions silly. It's the "there's no pressure" comment I take issue with.

The aspect of religion that I take huge exception to is the attempt to gain control over others through browbeating, intimidation, indoctrination of the young and peer pressure - and yes, some mightily twisted logic. Not to mention the attempts to accomplish agendas through political manipulation and legislation.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: waggy
but to say anyone who believes in religion is a quack is nieve as the people you want to bash.

Does this sum it up?

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: waggy
and nearly EVERY TV ministry is a frickne quack.

Anyone who believes in religion is a quack. The TV ministers have simply found a way to monetize it.

I'm not a quack.

Do you believe in Santa Claus?

I believe in all the goodness Santa Claus stands for. I also don't place Santa Claus in the same category as God.

Do you believe in anything that is good?

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: loki8481
religion may not be for you, but you're as much of a moron as those you're condemning if you're going to damn all religion across the board based on a couple televangelists.

Again, I am not condemning religion. I am condemning the people that twist it for their own purposes into something it is not. When your first experience with something is a bad one then you are not likely to stick with it. People on tv likes these spouting garbage is not likely to make people think they want to be a part of it.

There are many great pastors and priest, but the more I looked the more I found that those are becoming the minority and it is sickening to watch.

Jesus overturned the tables of the sellers in the temple, I can only imagine what he thinks of these people.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: iFX

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Watched a few religious channels and now I think I understand

You mean infomercials.

And, this somehow minimizes it...

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: waggy
and nearly EVERY TV ministry is a frickne quack.

Anyone who believes in religion is a quack. The TV ministers have simply found a way to monetize it.

I'm not a quack.

Do you believe in Santa Claus?

I believe in all the goodness Santa Claus stands for.

Text

I also don't place Santa Claus in the same category as God.

That's strange, because Santa Claus sure acts like a God. He's all knowing; he knows if you've been bad or good. He rewards those who've been good, and punishes those who have not.

Sounds an awful lot like God.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: waggy
and nearly EVERY TV ministry is a frickne quack.

Anyone who believes in religion is a quack. The TV ministers have simply found a way to monetize it.

I'm not a quack.

Do you believe in Santa Claus?

I believe in all the goodness Santa Claus stands for. I also don't place Santa Claus in the same category as God.

Do you believe in anything that is good?

I believe in science, logic, reason, intelligence and education.

You believe in a vengeful, jealous, angry, paranoid, violent pedophile who consigns people to eternal punishment if they have a burger on Friday.

The question is do YOU believe in anything that's good?

And of course you can't put Santa Claus in the same category as god, Santa isn't nearly as evil.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt


If you believe in an omnipotent god that has a plan then you also believe, perforce, that god decides who lives and who dies. A doctor can't lose a patient that god wants alive and medicine can't save one that god wants dead. That concept is quite simple and should be understandable even to morons who believe in omnipotent gods. So what's the point of going to a doctor? If a patient beats cancer they'll claim it was the grace of god that saved them and if they croak the family will console themselves by murmuring "it was god's will". So it was gods will either way, what was the doctor for? Why the hospital? Why the medicine? If god wanted that person alive they would be alive even if they refused treatment entirely because mankind can't circumvent his plan.

This is where a lot of people have a hard time understanding God. God is not omnipotent, he never claimed to be. Man gave him that title. He is not sitting there watching every person saying "oh, that one dies, this one lives" . If God knew everything he would have known that creating man would cause Lucifer to rebel and could have stopped the downfall of man. He gave man freewill for a reason. The result is the world we have now where God believes that man is worth redeeming, that humanity can be something, that we can become more than we are. At the same time you have Lucifer trying his best to prove God wrong. He wants to see man fail, to be able to show God that humanity is worthless . Think of it as a contest between two greater life forms with us as the pawns.

I don't know the rules, but I imagine that God cannot just save every person and give everyone what they want as that would not prove anything about humanity except that we are greedy and can't do anything by ourselves. Just as I don't think Lucifer has the power to turn everyone into some kind of demon as that would not prove anything either.

Ignore the religion for a minute and think of it as a head butting contest between two supreme beings and it all starts to make a lot of sense.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
I believe in science, logic, reason, intelligence and education.

You believe in a vengeful, jealous, angry, paranoid, violent pedophile who consigns people to eternal punishment if they have a burger on Friday.

The question is do YOU believe in anything that's good?

And of course you can't put Santa Claus in the same category as god, Santa isn't nearly as evil.

Same species, different class, like a rowboat vs a battleship.

Santa gives good gifts if you've been nice, and coal if you've been naughty.
God gives eternal goodness in Heaven if you've been nice, and eternal pain if you've been naughty.
And of course each comes with their various fanciful accessories - elves, flying reindeer, a son who can die and come back to life to absolve sin, and so on.

Originally posted by: Modelworks
This is where a lot of people have a hard time understanding God. God is not omnipotent, he never claimed to be. Man gave him that title. He is not sitting there watching every person saying "oh, that one dies, this one lives" . If God knew everything he would have known that creating man would cause Lucifer to rebel and could have stopped the downfall of man. He gave man freewill for a reason. The result is the world we have now where God believes that man is worth redeeming, that humanity can be something, that we can become more than we are. At the same time you have Lucifer trying his best to prove God wrong. He wants to see man fail, to be able to show God that humanity is worthless. Think of it as a contest between two greater life forms with us as the pawns.

I don't know the rules, but I imagine that God cannot just save every person and give everyone what they want as that would not prove anything about humanity except that we are greedy and can't do anything by ourselves. Just as I don't think Lucifer has the power to turn everyone into some kind of demon as that would not prove anything either.

Ignore the religion for a minute and think of it as a head butting contest between two supreme beings and it all starts to make a lot of sense.

Worth redeeming, except for that little flood incident that killed nearly everything on the planet. Redemption? Yeah, you're going to have to drown first.
The free will thing is great - is it really free will when someone points a gun at your head and says, "Choose wisely."
Philosophically, yes, you still have free will. You're just being forcibly coerced.
Legally, it's not a free choice.



And of course, this also brings up the next obvious question: How do you know what God wants, and what the nature of God is?

"...with us as the pawns." So we're also God's pawns in this great war? What are humans, ammunition? Or the prize, and the winner takes all? According to the doctrine, God evidently has the power and authority to create an entire Universe, as well as to rain destruction on his creations when it suits him, yet he can't deal with an out of control angel? Right.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: waggy
and nearly EVERY TV ministry is a frickne quack.

Anyone who believes in religion is a quack. The TV ministers have simply found a way to monetize it.

I'm not a quack.

Do you believe in Santa Claus?

I believe in all the goodness Santa Claus stands for.

Text

I also don't place Santa Claus in the same category as God.

That's strange, because Santa Claus sure acts like a God. He's all knowing; he knows if you've been bad or good. He rewards those who've been good, and punishes those who have not.

Sounds an awful lot like God.

The only thing that is strange is you.

And you edited out the question in my quote without answering it.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
...
Text
...

Love that site. Hadn't seen it. Thanks.

One of the columns: "Recovering Religionists: For Those Who Have Left the Church"

If religion is all good, how could a title like this even be possible.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: moshquerade
And you edited out the question in my quote without answering it.

Do you believe in anything that is good?

This isn't the first time you've asked an incredibly vague, open-ended question.

Here is my vague, open-ended response: yes.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
...
This is where a lot of people have a hard time understanding God. God is not omnipotent, he never claimed to be.
...

Here. Right here is where I have huge problems discussing religion with some folks. god said this or that or didn't say this or that. Did he whisper it in your or someone else's ear? Did he whisper or did he roar? Is he a he or a she? Or did he write it down. What language and symbol set did he use? Why do people insist on anthropomorphizing? - although why not with all the other fantasizing going on...

Right off, you've lost all but the most stalwart believers.

 

[jpeyton]

It's almost like reading a playbook.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo...-and-what-atheism-isnt

http://oeuvrebear.tumblr.com/p.../atheistic-agnosticism

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: moshquerade
It's quite hypocritical.

The Bible...it's God's word.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Jeff7



And of course, this also brings up the next obvious question: How do you know what God wants, and what the nature of God is?

"...with us as the pawns." So we're also God's pawns in this great war? What are humans, ammunition? Or the prize, and the winner takes all? According to the doctrine, God evidently has the power and authority to create an entire Universe, as well as to rain destruction on his creations when it suits him, yet he can't deal with an out of control angel? Right.

You or I can't know what God wants. All we can do is read everything we can get our hands on and decide for ourselves. That is the faith part of it. If man thought he could pray and get everything he wanted then nobody would do anything. If people thought they would automatically go to heaven then everyone would commit suicide. Faith works as a control in that area. It provides the balance between people being self reliant and people depending on God for everything.

And yes while God may love us as his creations, he never said we were considered equals. Humanity is something that was created and is now in the middle of a battle to prove if we are worthy.

If God were to destroy Lucifer then what does that prove about man ? Do you bet on a horse race and then kill all but one horse to prove you picked the best one ?

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Modelworks
...
This is where a lot of people have a hard time understanding God. God is not omnipotent, he never claimed to be.
...

Here. Right here is where I have huge problems discussing religion with some folks. god said this or that or didn't say this or that. Did he whisper it in your or someone else's ear? Did he whisper or did he roar? Is he a he or a she? Or did he write it down. What language and symbol set did he use? Why do people insist on anthropomorphizing? - although why not with all the other fantasizing going on...

Right off, you've lost all but the most stalwart believers.

That is why you should read things for yourself and not rely on what others tell you.
Read the bible and then write down everything that was supposedly directly from God, not interpreted or hearsay, but direct words. It isn't much.

God actually used the words US and OUR when he spoke. Many have said that is the holy trinity, but I am not sure of that myself.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
It provides the balance between people being self reliant and people depending on God for everything.

Wait a second...what's wrong with people simply being self-reliant? Why does a self-reliant person need "balance"?

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
You or I can't know what God wants. All we can do is read everything we can get our hands on and decide for ourselves. That is the faith part of it. If man thought he could pray and get everything he wanted then nobody would do anything. If people thought they would automatically go to heaven then everyone would commit suicide. Faith works as a control in that area. It provides the balance between people being self reliant and people depending on God for everything.

But if you choose wrong, you are punished for it. You're just not told for sure what is wrong. Who knows, you may have chosen the wrong religion to begin with. Maybe the right religion hasn't even been devised yet.

And yes while God may love us as his creations, he never said we were considered equals. Humanity is something that was created and is now in the middle of a battle to prove if we are worthy.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Might as well throw that out the window, since you say that's not what God did.
Heh, a battle to prove our worthiness. So this deity, with the power to create an immensely Universe, an entire Universe, all in just a few days, with the creation of humanity taking less than a full day, can't make a judgment of the value of a simple primate species that's been around for many thousands of years? Frankly, that's just laughable.
And the idea that he allows the existence of evil just to prove some point is equally laughable, and it shows him to be something of a sadist. You want to prove a point to your kids, such as, "Fire is bad," you don't throw the kid into a fire just to prove the point. Maybe a swat on the wrist, or else let the kid touch something that's mildly hot. Lesson learned. God seems to have an obsession with overdoing things though.

If God were to destroy Lucifer then what does that prove about man ? Do you bet on a horse race and then kill all but one horse to prove you picked the best one ?

So what's this really about? Is this about God just proving some point to humanity by allowing evil to exist, and therefore willfully allowing the existence of suffering? Or is God truly incapable of destroying evil?

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
So this deity, with the power to create an immensely Universe, an entire Universe, all in just a few days, with the creation of humanity taking less than a full day, can't make a judgment of the value of a simple primate species that's been around for many thousands of years? Frankly, that's just laughable.

Nuh uh, have you seen this?

:laugh:

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

But if you choose wrong, you are punished for it. You're just not told for sure what is wrong. Who knows, you may have chosen the wrong religion to begin with. Maybe the right religion hasn't even been devised yet.

I agree. It would be nice to know all the rules. To know what is wrong and what is right. But we don't have that so you have to do the best with what you have to work with.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
Might as well throw that out the window, since you say that's not what God did.

I said he did not create us equal to him . If he did we wouldn't be human.

Heh, a battle to prove our worthiness. So this deity, with the power to create an immensely Universe, an entire Universe, all in just a few days, with the creation of humanity taking less than a full day, can't make a judgment of the value of a simple primate species that's been around for many thousands of years?

Apparently he can't or he would have just killed us all off .

If God were to destroy Lucifer then what does that prove about man ? Do you bet on a horse race and then kill all but one horse to prove you picked the best one ?

So what's this really about? Is this about God just proving some point to humanity by allowing evil to exist, and therefore willfully allowing the existence of suffering? Or is God truly incapable of destroying evil?

That is a complicated question. If you take the words where he says "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, " literally then that implies that God was not a solitary being. It is already excepted that he had angels that served him so maybe it is a power struggle. I don't think God allows people to suffer as a way of making a point to them , but instead is a way of lucifer making a point to God to show how weak humanity is. Whether God has the ability to smite down lucifer nobody knows.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Jeff7
So this deity, with the power to create an immensely Universe, an entire Universe, all in just a few days, with the creation of humanity taking less than a full day, can't make a judgment of the value of a simple primate species that's been around for many thousands of years? Frankly, that's just laughable.

Nuh uh, have you seen this?

:laugh:

:music:
Now I'm a believer!
:music: