Watched a few religious channels and now I think I understand

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
I agree. It would be nice to know all the rules. To know what is wrong and what is right. But we don't have that so you have to do the best with what you have to work with.

And you're ok with facing potentially eternal punishment for choosing wrong, even though you didn't know it was wrong?

I said he did not create us equal to him . If he did we wouldn't be human.

Ah, key distinction there. And so what if we're not human. What we are is up to God anyway, isn't it? We could be a totally different thing, Bislfzxys, perhaps.

Heh, a battle to prove our worthiness. So this deity, with the power to create an immensely Universe, an entire Universe, all in just a few days, with the creation of humanity taking less than a full day, can't make a judgment of the value of a simple primate species that's been around for many thousands of years?

Apparently he can't or he would have just killed us all off .[/quote]
Apparently he CAN make up his mind fairly quickly, and the result was near total annihilation of all life on the planet, with the Great Flood. God didn't like what he saw, so he did a format&reinstall. So what's the deal this time, do we get twice as long before he decides :thumbsdown: or :thumbsup:?

That is a complicated question. If you take the words where he says "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, " literally then that implies that God was not a solitary being. It is already excepted that he had angels that served him so maybe it is a power struggle. I don't think God allows people to suffer as a way of making a point to them , but instead is a way of lucifer making a point to God to show how weak humanity is. Whether God has the ability to smite down lucifer nobody knows.

Sad that even in the planes of existence of the deities, they still suffer the same petty idiocy that we here on Earth enjoy - power struggles. It's amusing how, throughout history, our deities have suffered the same stupid problems as we have. Heck, who's to say that Heaven is a great afterlife? Maybe it's just an upgrade in God's army - we die, and level-up so that we can fight an everlasting war. Yay.
Still, the whole "power struggle" thing is just ludicrous, for the reasons I already put forth: God can create all of existence in a few days, and then take part of a day to create humans, but he can't deal with this one pesky Lucifer being.

Fun thought: Maybe "God" is really Satan/Lucifer/Steve Balmer, just setting us up to believe in him, by spreading a fake "Holy Bible" around, getting people to think they're following the "good" or "real" God. Meanwhile, the true God, perhaps being less powerful than Lucifer, was confined to Hell, and is only able to exert minimal influence on the outside world.

And how did the whole timeline work out? Was this epic war already ongoing before the Creation? Why not just put humanity on ice, like stop time, and then focus on the war? Why play this silly game all the time with humanity as the pawns? Seems like a lot of wasted effort with so much supposedly at stake. If you're talking about entities at war, with the ability to create and destroy universes, the daily lives of one puny species on one insignificant planet are...well, insignificant, and to say otherwise is merely an attempt to inflate the collective ego of the species.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Apparently he CAN make up his mind fairly quickly, and the result was near total annihilation of all life on the planet, with the Great Flood. God didn't like what he saw, so he did a format&reinstall. So what's the deal this time, do we get twice as long before he decides :thumbsdown: or :thumbsup:?

To be fair we started it. We created all the gods before the current batch and when they didn't work out we moved them all to the recycle bin and installed new ones. When these guys commit one atrocity too many we'll dump them too and invent some better ones.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Modelworks
...
This is where a lot of people have a hard time understanding God. God is not omnipotent, he never claimed to be.
...

Here. Right here is where I have huge problems discussing religion with some folks. god said this or that or didn't say this or that. Did he whisper it in your or someone else's ear? Did he whisper or did he roar? Is he a he or a she? Or did he write it down. What language and symbol set did he use? Why do people insist on anthropomorphizing? - although why not with all the other fantasizing going on...

Right off, you've lost all but the most stalwart believers.

That is why you should read things for yourself and not rely on what others tell you.
Read the bible and then write down everything that was supposedly directly from God, not interpreted or hearsay, but direct words. It isn't much.

God actually used the words US and OUR when he spoke. Many have said that is the holy trinity, but I am not sure of that myself.

You see that your response completely ignores my problem with stating that "god said this" "god did that" don't you? There's is no basis to give credibility to any concepts originating out of thin air. I understand that the only recourse is to ignore it. What could one possibly say except to make up some more tales?

It doesn't matter if I read or hear that a select few people have discovered that quarks can be juggled safely after clicking their heals three times and bowing to the sun. I'm still not going to give credence to the first thing about it.

 

[classy]

Originally posted by: shortylickens
I am not religious but even I know most people DONT get their religion from TV.

Thats it. The op does have a legit point, but not many people draw their beliefs from someone on tv.

 

[classy]

Let me also add something most people don't like to hear. Its true there are a lot of rip off folks in religion of all faiths. But here is a truth, many don't won't to acknowledge. It costs money to save the lost. If you are a believer in Jesus and accept that salvation is a gift from him, it costs money to not only win people to Christ but also to minister to them as well. Churches have bills, every pamphlet, every radio broadcast, every tape, every cd, every book costs money. Most people have this idea that being holy means being poor, living in a shack, struggling to feed the hungry. But giving money helps save people and minister to folks. I don't care who is accepting the money, when you give money or even your time, you are doing it unto God. If the man who is in the pulpit doesn't do what is right with your donations, he will have judgement in the end. But if you refuse to give or go to church because of someone else who is not doing right, then the first thing you need to do is repent and ask Jesus to teach you how to live. The wicked will always be with us, but God didn't tell us to serve him based on what the wicked does or does not do. Plain and simple question is, where is your faith being placed?

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: moshquerade
And you edited out the question in my quote without answering it.

Do you believe in anything that is good?

This isn't the first time you've asked an incredibly vague, open-ended question.

Here is my vague, open-ended response: yes.

Do elaborate, because all I ever read in any of your posts are cynicism and paranoia.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: classy

Originally posted by: shortylickens
I am not religious but even I know most people DONT get their religion from TV.

Thats it. The op does have a legit point, but not many people draw their beliefs from someone on tv.

That's true. Most people draw their religious beliefs from two things:

1) Place

2) Time

We are all humans.

But if you're born in Iran? Chances are you're Shiite Muslim.

Born in Ancient Egypt? Chances are you worshiped many Egyptian mythological Gods.

Born in modern-day Egypt? Chances are you're Sunni Muslim.

Born in India? Chances are you're Hindu.

Born Native American? Chances are you believe in spirituality.

Born in Tibet? Chances are you're Buddhist.

Born in modern-day Greece? Chances are you're Greek Orthodox Christian.

Born in Ancient Greece? Chances are you worshiped many Greek mythological Gods.

All religions offer the same thing: submission. The ability to cope with our own mortality. It's a parental figure patting you on the back, telling you everything will be okay.

All those religions do share one common thread: their believers feel they are on the "true" path. Otherwise they would have switched to another religion, no?

If there is an "ATOT" forum in India, I'm sure they're having the same debate about how Hinduism is the divine religion handed down by Vishnu himself, and Christians don't know what the hell they're talking about.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: classy
Let me also add something most people don't like to hear. Its true there are a lot of rip off folks in religion of all faiths. But here is a truth, many don't won't to acknowledge. It costs money to save the lost. ...

Let me suggest an uncomfortable truth. It takes some pretty big balls to be presumptuous and callous enough to declare someone as 'lost'.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Do not confuse religion with the people who practice it.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
All those religions do share one common thread: their believers feel they are on the "true" path. Otherwise they would have switched to another religion, no?

So you believe that English is the one true language, otherwise you would have switched to another language, no?

Not all theists subscribe to the "one true religion" mentality, and as such the charge made by atheists to this effect is just a weak attempt to prove their own one true religion. There has in fact been some harmony among religions, from the ancient past increasing to the present, which atheists then twist to make another argument that various religions just copied one another.

It's lose, lose, from blind faith in religion to blind faith in atheism, a dead and dull argument serving little purpose than the demonstration of the continued interest in theists and atheists alike in larger questions.

Aurobindo:

"Each religion has helped mankind. Paganism increased in man the light of beauty, the largeness and height of his life, his aim at a many-sided perfection; Christianity gave him some vision of divine love and charity; Buddhism has shown him a noble way to be wiser, gentler, purer; Judaism and Islam how to be religiously faithful in action and zealously devoted to God; Hinduism has opened to him the largest and profoundest spiritual possibilities. A great thing would be done if all these God-visions could embrace and cast themselves into each other; but intellectual dogma and cult-egoism stand in the way.

All religions have saved a number of souls, but none yet has been able to spiritualise mankind. For that there is needed not cult and creed, but a sustained and all-comprehending effort at spiritual self-evolution."

Identifying flaws in this or that argument another makes is a big part of the entertainment of arguing, but they're hollow imagined victories, one way or another. The very interest that the atheist takes in such discussions to browbeat the subscribing theist on one point or another demonstrates that the atheist is also in a way a potential theist, looking for the right answers but failing to find them, to the point that the very failure becomes some sort of a religious quest of self-validation or saving of other souls.

Atheism is a valid perspective, as is theism. Dogmatic hostile atheism is no more a valid position than dogmatic hostile theism when one religion goes after another or atheism. What matters least to you is what some others believe.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Madwand1
Not all theists subscribe to the "one true religion" mentality

An overwhelming majority do.

and as such the charge made by atheists to this effect is just a weak attempt to prove their own one true religion.

Does not compute.

Atheism: the absence of belief in the existence of deities
Religion: A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, God or gods, or ultimate truth

Christianity gave him some vision of divine love and charity; Buddhism has shown him a noble way to be wiser, gentler, purer; Judaism and Islam how to be religiously faithful in action and zealously devoted to God; Hinduism has opened to him the largest and profoundest spiritual possibilities.

And yet many great men and women throughout history have existed without these religions or traits.

All religions have saved a number of souls

You lost me there. What is a soul, and what are you saving this soul from? Things like this are imaginary concepts to atheists.

Atheism is a valid perspective, as is theism.

Nothing about theism has been validated.

 

[AnonymouseUser]

Originally posted by: classy
Most people have this idea that being holy means being poor, living in a shack, struggling to feed the hungry.

Odd. I have this idea that "being holy" means having plenty, like gold, land, huge elaborate buildings, living lavish lifestyles, etc, etc...

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Nothing about theism has been validated.

You don't know that. /end

 

[seemingly random]

Atheism is not a religion. It's convenient to portray it as such for the shock value and temporary disarming effect though.

I agree that some atheists are as obnoxious as some religious fundies. Both are big turnoffs. The difference between the two is that some religious fundies will try to sneak prosetylizing past people with the love and understanding trickery. The atheist will be always in your face.

Nice try at attempting to head off any criticism. This might even work on some fresh converts.

I don't want to stop others from believing in fairy tales. That's up to them. I do want to stop them from corrupting fresh minds though. Against this, I will fight forever. The concept that some religious fundies think that they have 'saved' a soul is disgustingly pretentious.

 

[Mr. Lennon]

"Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It?s nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith and enable and elevate it are intellectual slave holders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction."

-Bill Maher

 

[skulkingghost]

EWTN is where its at, I enjoy watching Mother Angelica, she speaks the truth without begging for money.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: seemingly random
I don't want to stop others from believing in fairy tales. That's up to them. I do want to stop them from corrupting fresh minds though. Against this, I will fight forever. The concept that some religious fundies think that they have 'saved' a soul is disgustingly pretentious.

So you will fight against parents teaching their children about their beliefs? And you would have absolutely no doubt that you have in fact improved their lives and prevented them from religious dogma and their culture to their entire good? I.e. "saved" them?

It is atheistic hypocrisy to presume that you know better than all religions.

 

[Zeeky Boogy Doog]

Originally posted by: Madwand1

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Nothing about theism has been validated.

You don't know that. /end

You sure put him in his place, maybe you should show him all the evidence so he can understand?

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: Zeeky Boogy Doog

Originally posted by: Madwand1

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Nothing about theism has been validated.

You don't know that. /end

You sure put him in his place, maybe you should show him all the evidence so he can understand?

I interpreted his statement as "nothing about theism has ever been validated by anyone", and claim that he doesn't know that. I'm out on a limb, I know. Oops.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Madwand1

Originally posted by: seemingly random
I don't want to stop others from believing in fairy tales. That's up to them. I do want to stop them from corrupting fresh minds though. Against this, I will fight forever. The concept that some religious fundies think that they have 'saved' a soul is disgustingly pretentious.

So you will fight against parents teaching their children about their beliefs? And you would have absolutely no doubt that you have in fact improved their lives and prevented them from religious dogma and their culture to their entire good? I.e. "saved" them?

No. I will fight to expose all young people to all possibilities. I don't claim to know what their "entire good" is. I would 'save' them from a one-sided argument. Hopefully, children have functioning brains.

It is atheistic hypocrisy to presume that you know better than all religions.

I'm not an atheist. I can't say for sure if there is a supreme being or not. All signs seem to lead to not but I don't have proof. I have proof that terrible things have happened to living and non-living things on earth. For a supposed supreme being who has the power to stop this to exist would take a mean bastard indeed.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: seemingly random
I'm not an atheist. I can't say for sure if there is a supreme being or not. All signs seem to lead to not but I don't have proof. I have proof that terrible things have happened to living and non-living things on earth. For a supposed supreme being who has the power to stop this to exist would take a mean bastard indeed.

I withdraw my objections/claims to you.

I find your concern for the non-living interesting.

Cheers.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: Madwand1
It is atheistic hypocrisy to presume that you know better than all religions.

It is aunicornistic hypocrisy to presume that you know better than all unicorn believers.

It is non-astrologer hypocrisy to presume that you know better than all astrologers.

It is ahomeopathistic hypocrisy to presume that you know better than all homeopathic believers.

It is nonUFOlogistic hypocrisy to presume that you know better than all UFO true believers.


Shall I continue? It's not a matter of proclaiming to know better than anyone. We follow the evidence. There is none for your side. None.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Madwand1

Originally posted by: seemingly random
I'm not an atheist. I can't say for sure if there is a supreme being or not. All signs seem to lead to not but I don't have proof. I have proof that terrible things have happened to living and non-living things on earth. For a supposed supreme being who has the power to stop this to exist would take a mean bastard indeed.

I withdraw my objections/claims to you.

I find your concern for the non-living interesting.

Cheers.

Well, some say that this god controls the weather. It rains until there are floods and things get wiped out. Sometimes, people get wiped out also. I seem to remember a little tidal wave that caused some problems in indonesia a few years ago...

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Shall I continue? It's not a matter of proclaiming to know better than anyone. We follow the evidence. There is none for your side. None.

Well, if you're asking me, please don't, not at least until you understand the point which you're contesting and are able to submit proof that there is no such thing, whether evidence held by anyone, or God.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Madwand1
and are able to submit proof that there is no such thing

That right there folks is when you know it's time to back away from a discussion with a theist.

It's one of the best tricks in their bag. Prove it doesn't exist.

Your child has an invisible kangaroo for a best friend. Can you prove the kangaroo doesn't exist?