water cooling vs heatsink cooling vs any other type????

[lolabunny087]

Recently , i took my 2 year old system and tried my hand at cleaning it by myself and trying to save cash instead of sending it to the comp shop. I removed my intel hsf and cleaned it and put it back in without realizing to clean the surfaces and reapplying thermal grease. Big mistake .... i then turned my system back on and it clicked a bit and shut down .. then i tried it again and it didnt start at all ... so the next day i took it to the shop to get it checked out ...the guy said that the mobo is gone .. i replaced it ... changed the ddr to ddr2 memory.. got a new msi mobo . took it back home .. all was fine exept that when i ran the pc alert 4 to check the temp it was at 50*c ( i dunno how to type that 0 symbol for degrees) anyway .. i realized that before i screwed it up even before i cleaned it .. with all that gunk in the hsf previously .. it was a cool 35*c at no load ..what is the problem ?.. my mind was boggled ?.. what could have gone wrong .. obviously the comp guy at shop f**ked up ..

So i was wondering ... i do plan on up grading to a core2duo later in a few months.. i am an avid gamer ... what do i do to kkep the cpu temp the coolest ?.. within an affordable budget .. water cooling .. like thermal take sets or use the thermalright 120 extreme ..?

can anyone show me the difference in charts between those two?.. which is the best liquid cooling set in the market right now ?.. and which is the best air cooled one right now ? I am in Malaysia ... but we do get stuff from USA within a month or so..so availabilty of product is just time waiting .. can anyone help me in this ?.. i am a real fan of anandtech.. i visit the site everyday looking for new stuff... thank you ..

my system....
p4 3.0ghz... not sure exactly what version.. but its with HT
msi p4m900m2 mobo
1gb twinmos 667 ddr2
radeon x550 256 .. ( i know its lame ..planning to upgrade to r600 x2900 or nvidia 8800.. not sure .. when i can afford it .. )

 

[MotF Bane]

Never get Thermaltake water cooling.

Core 2 Duo runs vastly cooler than that Pentium 4 does. You could go along with the stock cooler from Intel if you want, or get a small upgrade and it will run fine. If you really want good air cooling, Tuniq Tower is probably more reliable for quality than the Thermalright.

 

[aigomorla]

u need to dedicate at least 8 hours of your time. And about 200+ dollars for a worthwhile water migration.


If you cheap any of that, your going to wish you were on air. So i recomend you staying on air until your heart and budget is set on water.


-Good luck

 

[lolabunny087]

Originally posted by: MotF Bane
Never get Thermaltake water cooling.

Core 2 Duo runs vastly cooler than that Pentium 4 does. You could go along with the stock cooler from Intel if you want, or get a small upgrade and it will run fine. If you really want good air cooling, Tuniq Tower is probably more reliable for quality than the Thermalright.

Well.. i dunno about Tt water cooling kits or how bad they are ...thanks for replying by the way ... however.. has anyone tried the thermalright extreme 120 vs a liquid system ? i saw the anandtech reviews on the Tr extreme and it beat all the other coolers by a mile ... but never showed how it did against liquid cooled rigs .... i hope that AT guys here would do a liquid cooled systems review so we all can know which is the best out there ... which system can cool the cpu the best .. i think logically it should be the LCS rigs .. but i'm not sure ...

 

[SparkyJJO]

Good water cooling will cost much more than good air. If you aren't overclocking (or if you are doing very little) I'd stick with air because it is simpler and cheaper. I don't think the king air cooler can get the same temps as my water cooling but I also spent $400 on it Granted that is high-end parts with extras, but even doing a more basic CPU-only loop would cost you probably around $200-$250.

 

[tylerdustin2008]

If i were you i would get the Tuniq Tower 120 MotF Bane said above. I believe the 120E is a POS from all the complaints from people. And not really heard a damn thing bad with the Tuniq. And yes good water is not cheap, and since it seems you do not plan on OC'ing air is best for you.

 

[lolabunny087]

Originally posted by: tylerdustin2008
If i were you i would get the Tuniq Tower 120 MotF Bane said above. I believe the 120E is a POS from all the complaints from people. And not really heard a damn thing bad with the Tuniq. And yes good water is not cheap, and since it seems you do not plan on OC'ing air is best for you.

Ok.. thanks for post tyler..umm.. well ..i do realise that i'm not gonna be overclocking my cpu anytime in the foreseable future.. i have no experience in it , nor do i have any friends i know that do it .. ( i am kinda noob!) anyways .. the cost of a LCS is gonna be prety steep.. it would make better sense to upgrade to a higher end quad maybe .. for the same cost of a LCS and a low end C2d anyways right ?.. but on the other hand .. with a LCS system.. ican show off to all my noob friends that i'm the only noob here that has got LCS and no one else .. heheh!! .. but i guess its a waste of money and and unwanted risk.. why get a honda with a turbo charger and fancy lights when u can get a bmw that runs faster ... lol... anyway.. thanks anyways guys for yer posts ...

so now my question is ... is it a good idea to just keep the stock intel fan ..?.. or do i get a the tuniq tower 120 (which i'm not sure its available or not in Malaysia where i am.. the Tr extreme 120 is here ..i have seen in the picelists ...) i've seen the charts here in Anandtech.. and the stock fan is actualy quite cr*p if u ask me ..compared to the others ..

thank you

 

[MotF Bane]

I'd say get rid of the stock one. It's a piece of junk.
Try any of the following...
Sunbeam CR-SW-775
Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro
Scythe Ninja
Scythe Infinity
Tuniq Tower
You should be able to find at least one of those. They're listed roughly in price and performance order (both are the same order), at least, they should be, somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[lolabunny087]

well. thank u for confirming my doubts ....i had a look at the tunig tower HS.. its insanely huge !!! i think its bigger than the Tr extreme 120 .. i think... i'm not sure ..
anyways... but my problem is where i'm from ..Malaysia... idont think the list of HS that u mentioned is available .. i'll have to go ask my computer guy ... if its not ..then maybe i'll pay a visit to Singapore ... (Malaysia's neighbour down south).. they usually have more stuff than we do .. and they get it much faster too ...

thanks again....

well..i guess most of my queries have been answered ..... what's left is my wonderings about what is the most insane cooling rig there is out there .. i was surfing around and came across this site.. the inquirer i think.. having a post a bout the latest pc tech expo 007 in Taiwan going on now ... i saw this pic where it showed this bunch of guys using liquid nitrogen to cool ther rig .. i think a quadcore 2.93 to a whopping 5.0ghz!! insane !! i think ... what the hell did they do ?.. hookup their cooling system to a fridge ?... i'm not sure if they the nitrogen became gas or what ....

is it possible to run through ur everyday LCS through a fridge to go that extra degree ?...

thanks again guys for loooking at my post

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: lolabunny087
well. thank u for confirming my doubts ....i had a look at the tunig tower HS.. its insanely huge !!! i think its bigger than the Tr extreme 120 .. i think... i'm not sure ..
anyways... but my problem is where i'm from ..Malaysia... idont think the list of HS that u mentioned is available .. i'll have to go ask my computer guy ... if its not ..then maybe i'll pay a visit to Singapore ... (Malaysia's neighbour down south).. they usually have more stuff than we do .. and they get it much faster too ...

thanks again....

well..i guess most of my queries have been answered ..... what's left is my wonderings about what is the most insane cooling rig there is out there .. i was surfing around and came across this site.. the inquirer i think.. having a post a bout the latest pc tech expo 007 in Taiwan going on now ... i saw this pic where it showed this bunch of guys using liquid nitrogen to cool ther rig .. i think a quadcore 2.93 to a whopping 5.0ghz!! insane !! i think ... what the hell did they do ?.. hookup their cooling system to a fridge ?... i'm not sure if they the nitrogen became gas or what ....

is it possible to run through ur everyday LCS through a fridge to go that extra degree ?...

thanks again guys for loooking at my post

Sigh.... your jumping too ahead of yourself now.

Fridges are never recomended for anything. You'll burn the compressor out in a matter of months. People who do more exotic sub ambient cooling, use Phase. They basically pull a compressor off an AC unit and mod the head with a evaporator. This allows the uber negitive temps on the heat sink.

Your theory up there is whats called a closed loop chilled water system. These are vey difficult to pull of, but will give you the lowest load temps out of all the cooling systems listed. Even more then phase tyler.

However the problem with a chilled liquid system is the chilling eq. There very big, and most are external. I havent seen 1 internal system to date.

You also need to insulate your entire computer because that chilled liquid will frost your tubes, and cause condensation nightmares. In all, if your not ready for water, theres no way in hell your ready for chilled liquid.

And if your not ready for water, unless you decide run b4 you learn how to walk, Phase is definitely not for you.

 

[lolabunny087]

Heheh.... aigomorla... I was just curious man .. that's all. I'm not really gonna get an LCS and run it through a fridge ...but it sounds facscinating though.. lol..

 

[imported_Husky55]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
u need to dedicate at least 8 hours of your time. And about 200+ dollars for a worthwhile water migration.


If you cheap any of that, your going to wish you were on air. So i recomend you staying on air until your heart and budget is set on water.


-Good luck

How true. But you broke my heart!!!

 

[Stephen8454]

I have the thermalright ultra 120 extreme and find it works VERY good. I ran a stability test on my C2D e6320 @ 3.01GHz in a hot room and the temps never passed 56° w/ 100% utilization.

However, I am really looking into something that will put the CPU at subzero temps just because I am an enthusiast who wants to know how to do it.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

All of the options involve "tradeoffs."

The most obvious tradeoff is between "effectiveness" and cost. Cooling your components to temperatures below room temperature will cost extra, even if you choose the "Rube Goldberg" evaporative "nuclear-cooling-tower" method.

There is a tradeoff between effectiveness and complexity. If you introduce more mechanical components which are also more difficult to replace, you add complexity to the system. Complexity increases risk that something will break down. Risk translates into unforeseen costs throughout the life of the system.

Without chilled water with either TEC or evaporative cooling, and excluding phase-change solutions, water-cooling is similar to air-cooling in that the limit of effectiveness is the room-ambient temperature.

With a larger water-reservoir and bigger radiators, you can bring down the entire range of temperatures (between idle and load values) to levels approaching room-ambient. However, the DIFFERENCE between idle and load values would be primarily determined by the quality of the thermal interface material between the water-block and the CPU heat-spreader cap. Thus the rated thermal resistance of a water-cooling loop will be limited by the materials used to make the water-block (copper or silver), and the thermal interface material or thermal paste.

The idle-to-load spread may have the greatest influence on over-clocking stability. In earlier posts in another thread, I discussed this with a water-cooling guru who posted his temperatures on an Opteron system for which the stock thermal wattage was 95W, and we compared my Prescott which had a stock wattage of 103W. His minimum idle temperature was a few degrees Celsius lower than mine. My system used a ThermalRight SI-120 and motherboard ducting. But the spread between his idle and load values was almost equivalent to what I had achieved with the heat-pipe cooler and ducting.

Another factor in choosing cooling options would be "mobility." Several water-cooling options involve running hoses to components that are external to the computer case. One evaporative cooling solution actually requires use of copper tubing which the user runs through a wall or window in his home and buries under the lawn -- dependent on watering the lawn so that the evaporation of the lawn-water cools the coolant inside the copper pipe -- which is circulated with an external pump and recycled through the CPU waterblock.

You can't easily move the computer from room to room under these scenarios.

So that leaves the focus of our interest on thermal interface materials and modifications to heatpipe coolers. I'll post the revelations and innovations in these regards after I've implemented them in the next few weeks -- and after I've powder-coated my case-chassis and external panels in chrome, sealing and polishing them with clear enamel . . .

. . . Cosmetic efforts are an insidious detour and burden of effort, but that's what people want to see.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: BonzaiDuck
All of the options involve "tradeoffs."

The most obvious tradeoff is between "effectiveness" and cost. Cooling your components to temperatures below room temperature will cost extra, even if you choose the "Rube Goldberg" evaporative "nuclear-cooling-tower" method.

There is a tradeoff between effectiveness and complexity. If you introduce more mechanical components which are also more difficult to replace, you add complexity to the system. Complexity increases risk that something will break down. Risk translates into unforeseen costs throughout the life of the system.

Without chilled water with either TEC or evaporative cooling, and excluding phase-change solutions, water-cooling is similar to air-cooling in that the limit of effectiveness is the room-ambient temperature.

With a larger water-reservoir and bigger radiators, you can bring down the entire range of temperatures (between idle and load values) to levels approaching room-ambient. However, the DIFFERENCE between idle and load values would be primarily determined by the quality of the thermal interface material between the water-block and the CPU heat-spreader cap. Thus the rated thermal resistance of a water-cooling loop will be limited by the materials used to make the water-block (copper or silver), and the thermal interface material or thermal paste. (<--- uhhh okey, your getting too far on your theories. Have you watercooled? Water will transport heat away from your components more efficiently. So i guess you can say heat will be sucked out faster then it would be on air. The transfer meduim of AIR which is the last part is done at the radiator, and that is done much more effectively though a radiator, then though a air heat sink.)


The idle-to-load spread may have the greatest influence on over-clocking stability. In earlier posts in another thread, I discussed this with a water-cooling guru who posted his temperatures on an Opteron system for which the stock thermal wattage was 95W, and we compared my Prescott which had a stock wattage of 103W. His minimum idle temperature was a few degrees Celsius lower than mine. My system used a ThermalRight SI-120 and motherboard ducting. But the spread between his idle and load values was almost equivalent to what I had achieved with the heat-pipe cooler and ducting.

Another factor in choosing cooling options would be "mobility." Several water-cooling options involve running hoses to components that are external to the computer case. One evaporative cooling solution actually requires use of copper tubing which the user runs through a wall or window in his home and buries under the lawn -- dependent on watering the lawn so that the evaporation of the lawn-water cools the coolant inside the copper pipe -- which is circulated with an external pump and recycled through the CPU waterblock.

You can't easily move the computer from room to room under these scenarios.

So that leaves the focus of our interest on thermal interface materials and modifications to heatpipe coolers. I'll post the revelations and innovations in these regards after I've implemented them in the next few weeks -- and after I've powder-coated my case-chassis and external panels in chrome, sealing and polishing them with clear enamel . . .

. . . Cosmetic efforts are an insidious detour and burden of effort, but that's what people want to see.

Okey about the last post. Im sorry but WHO was this watercooling guru? My system will eat any air setup, and most likely 95% of the water setups on this forum, and i want to say most likely in all of the US.

So can i please end this comparision to water vs air. They are only simular in how they work, but in effectivness and cooling power, your comparing apples to oranges.

http://i125.photobucket.com/al...73/aigomorla/Q6600.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/al...aigomorla/IMG_0721.jpg

Yeah, air can bite me. Now lets stop comparing air vs water, in terms of performance. YOU CANT WIN IF YOUR ON AIR.

Whats more important is do you have the time and budget for the benifits of water.


Dont make me break out my opty screenies. You'll cry. I even made some pro's at XS cry when they saw it. And i still think i hold one of the highest overclocked optys on this forum at 3.2ghz @ 1.45Vcore.

And most likely unless your on sub ambient cooling, i most likely hold the coolest running quad @ 3.6ghz.

My Opty:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/3.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/al...3/aigomorla/Burnin.jpg


So if you think an air heatsink can do that. Try it. But your going to have to wait until winter, and move all your EQ outside, and live somewhere near the north pole.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Maybe it was you . . .

The last set of screens you showed in that dialog I mentioned -- if it was you -- had a load temperature around 41C.

From these screens, I cannot see how you would reduce your core temperature below the idle value -- from 33C to 31C. Are you using a TEC chiller? How big is your reservoir?

But looking at your rig proves my point. Very elegant setup, although you still have about the same number of fans pushing air through your system as do I. And very many components.

See, I'm not going to "call you" on the integrity of your screen-captures. But you're still using either a copper water-block -- or at best, a silver one. Those interfaces are the bottleneck. If you chill the water, different story.

Swiftech has a water-cooling kit sold at places like SideWinder which shows a thermal-resistance rating of about 0.12 C/W -- for something in excess of $200. That number is going to affect the idle-to-load spread, even if the idle temperature is lower than with an air-cooled heat-pipe rig. The ThermalRight Ultra-120-Extreme has a measured thermal resistance of 0.097 C/W, so one would expect the idle-to-load spread to be narrower, even if the idle temperature is higher than with the water-cooling kit. If one were to increase the mass of the heatsink, I'm betting that the idle temperature could be reduced -- although I don't know how close it would come to the Swiftech kit.

In a few weeks, I'll be posting some results of some mods I'm making with the Ultra-120-Extreme. I'll be quite happy with those results if the difference between my idle and load values falls within 5C degrees -- and I can't tell for sure at this time whether it will be better or worse than that. But the results will reflect a CPU that's giving off something close to 135 Watts of thermal energy and twice the thermal wattage at load for the processor's stock settings.

 

[A5]

If you aren't overclocking, anything more than a decent air cooler is overkill. Just get something that can mount a 120mm fan, stick a nice quiet one on there, and leave it be.

 

[ChefJoe]

Originally posted by: BonzaiDuck
But looking at your rig proves my point. Very elegant setup, although you still have about the same number of fans pushing air through your system as do I. And very many components.

See, I'm not going to "call you" on the integrity of your screen-captures. But you're still using either a copper water-block -- or at best, a silver one. Those interfaces are the bottleneck. If you chill the water, different story.

Swiftech has a water-cooling kit sold at places like SideWinder which shows a thermal-resistance rating of about 0.12 C/W -- for something in excess of $200. That number is going to affect the idle-to-load spread, even if the idle temperature is lower than with an air-cooled heat-pipe rig. The ThermalRight Ultra-120-Extreme has a measured thermal resistance of 0.097 C/W, so one would expect the idle-to-load spread to be narrower, even if the idle temperature is higher than with the water-cooling kit. If one were to increase the mass of the heatsink, I'm betting that the idle temperature could be reduced -- although I don't know how close it would come to the Swiftech kit.

In a few weeks, I'll be posting some results of some mods I'm making with the Ultra-120-Extreme. I'll be quite happy with those results if the difference between my idle and load values falls within 5C degrees -- and I can't tell for sure at this time whether it will be better or worse than that. But the results will reflect a CPU that's giving off something close to 135 Watts of thermal energy and twice the thermal wattage at load for the processor's stock settings.

Thank you for being entirely reasonable with your cooling logic. I wish this forum had more posts by people like you (and less bragging).

I've gone with air cooling my CPUs since 2000 and only this year decided to put in a quick, simple water cooling loop to see if I could make my computer quieter. I am incredibly happy with my Swiftech 120 kit on a C2D and think there's no reason to set minimum investment numbers if you're dealing with a cool CPU to begin with. Maybe it was different in earlier days and water cooling.

Oh, and a E6420 at 3.2 GHz with the Swiftech 120 kit idles around 31C and at full load for a while hits 45C (and drops quickly when I shut down orthos so the waterblock is likely the limiting step) . Could I get better temps with twice as much radiator, sure, but at at temp below 50C I don't see a reason to worry. If I really cared about the temp I would just adjust my AB9's uGuru max and min fan voltage to be a bit higher. What I do care about is that I quickly dropped a single radiator behind a stock 120mm fan hole and had a simpler build that doesn't have a whiny CPU fan.

And if I had to do air, the 120mm fan suggestion is perfect too. That's what I did with my old 2.8C and a Thermalright XP-120.

EDIT: Tried coretemp out and I should revise that 45C statement. Coretemp shows I'm at 39-42C (depending on when you read it)... mostly 40-41C using my Swiftech kit after a full 10 Orthos tests . Not bad for a $150 kit with one 120 mm radiator.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: BonzaiDuck
Maybe it was you . . .

The last set of screens you showed in that dialog I mentioned -- if it was you -- had a load temperature around 41C.

From these screens, I cannot see how you would reduce your core temperature below the idle value -- from 33C to 31C. Are you using a TEC chiller? How big is your reservoir?

But looking at your rig proves my point. Very elegant setup, although you still have about the same number of fans pushing air through your system as do I. And very many components.

See, I'm not going to "call you" on the integrity of your screen-captures. But you're still using either a copper water-block -- or at best, a silver one. Those interfaces are the bottleneck. If you chill the water, different story.

Swiftech has a water-cooling kit sold at places like SideWinder which shows a thermal-resistance rating of about 0.12 C/W -- for something in excess of $200. That number is going to affect the idle-to-load spread, even if the idle temperature is lower than with an air-cooled heat-pipe rig. The ThermalRight Ultra-120-Extreme has a measured thermal resistance of 0.097 C/W, so one would expect the idle-to-load spread to be narrower, even if the idle temperature is higher than with the water-cooling kit. If one were to increase the mass of the heatsink, I'm betting that the idle temperature could be reduced -- although I don't know how close it would come to the Swiftech kit.

In a few weeks, I'll be posting some results of some mods I'm making with the Ultra-120-Extreme. I'll be quite happy with those results if the difference between my idle and load values falls within 5C degrees -- and I can't tell for sure at this time whether it will be better or worse than that. But the results will reflect a CPU that's giving off something close to 135 Watts of thermal energy and twice the thermal wattage at load for the processor's stock settings.

Im sorry Your comparing my IDLE @ 3.2 with your idle at a completely different voltage/Overclock?

And what about my second screenie that shows my full load temps at 28C @ 2.75ghz? Which i think most optys are clocked near on AIR. This is the screenie YOU SHOULD be comapring it against. NOT MY IDLE.

those were taken at 2 different ambients. And the ambient temps @ 28C were taken at 18-20C. My idle was most likely 1C higher then ambient. So that means my load to ambient raitio is less then 10C. No air cooler can do this.

Your getting your thermodyamics principles all wrong. So i suggest you redo your math and numbers and then repost.

There is no way AIR can match or get close to water period. If you think it can, then you seriously need to go study physics all over again.

And if you still think air can match water: My E6600.
http://i125.photobucket.com/al...igomorla/ApogeeGTX.jpg


So i'll say this one more time. You guys who think air can match water, can BITE me. Beause thats what you'll need to do on my hoses for me to match air temps.


Also in short, i would take zap, vin, and yoda even as air guru's on this forum. Operandi being one of them as well. If they cant repoduce what i do on water, there is no fat chance anyone on this forum can do it. Unless your a custom heat sink builder and you decide to push 20 heat pipes off the main base.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Aigomorla has an E6600 clocked at 3.6 Ghz, running a divider with his memory and timings of 4,4,4,8 at DDR2-1077. If he were running his system at 1:1 with 2*DDR2 = FSB_QDR, his memory would be running at DDR2-800. His VCORE seems to be set at 1.45V, because that's what the nVidia monitor program reports -- the setting.

I chose to overclock my E6600 to 3.24 Ghz, and the Vcore is about 1.40V. My memory timings are 3, 4, 4, 8 -- and I'm running the memory at a 1:1 divider of 2*[DDR2] = FSB, or 720 Mhz DDR2 and 1440 Mhz FSB. My memory bandwidth benches equal or surpass what I had running the memory at looser timings of 4,4,4,10 in excess of DDR2-800.

My system is in a cyber-junk test-chassis with open sidepanel. I'm currently using an "original" TR Ultra-120 -- the model that preceded the "Extreme" version. Under ORTHOS at 75F room ambient, my load temperature peaks at an average value of 45C. Aigo's load value is 53C with water-cooling.

I'm using Crucial Ballistix DDR2-1000 modules, and I'd have to look at the specs for his "Tracers." But I'm not twisting up the voltage and pushing the system any farther than the 3.24 Ghz until I've finished building my case, modding my Ultra-120-Extreme, custom-mixing my thermal paste, and installing my motherboard ducts.

I'm not poo-pooing water-cooling and other approaches, but I've chosen to see what I can squeeze from air-cooling options. ChefJoe's report on his Swiftech water-cooling kit seems to conform to my observations about rated thermal resistance and load temperatures.

If we all wanted to, we could go buy a VapoChill Prometeia or Lightspeed kit, get a new power-supply and boost our monthly utility bill. We'd fiddle with foam grommets to insulate the chilled components, but we could probably push an E6600 to some 5 Ghz -- I think I've seen it done in the database at FutureMark.

So, without having a p_____g contest about "who wins," there are options, people pick the options they want, and attempt to optimize the equipment's performance within the option parameters.

 

[nealh]

Quick comment..Aigomoria cpu temps are 37/39C for the cores...I would use coretemp for temps not the other program(not sure what it is but his cpu temp is not 53C)

Also depending on the cpu..extra vcore..ie 1.45v vs 1.40v...can make a huge difference in temps

"B" and "F" chips are ovens as vcore goes up....even small amounts

"A", "C" and "G" chips tend to run cooler but do not clock as well in most cases

I have an "A" chip idle is 10C higher at 1.525v(1.5v by DMM under load) but load delta is 18c vs my "F" chip at 1.4v(1.38 load vcore by DMM) but the delta under load is over 20C

so you comparison is likely apples to oranges

Also ambient temps are critical, as is open/closed case, other fans and components

Mobo are notorious crap for reporting correct temps(I have 2 965-S mobo and same exact build for work) but temps are temp but no less than 5C

So temp comparison are not easy if not impossible between 2 setups

Delta from ambients..idle and load are better indicator IMHO

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: BonzaiDuck
Aigomorla has an E6600 clocked at 3.6 Ghz, running a divider with his memory and timings of 4,4,4,8 at DDR2-1077. If he were running his system at 1:1 with 2*DDR2 = FSB_QDR, his memory would be running at DDR2-800. His VCORE seems to be set at 1.45V, because that's what the nVidia monitor program reports -- the setting.

I chose to overclock my E6600 to 3.24 Ghz, and the Vcore is about 1.40V. My memory timings are 3, 4, 4, 8 -- and I'm running the memory at a 1:1 divider of 2*[DDR2] = FSB, or 720 Mhz DDR2 and 1440 Mhz FSB. My memory bandwidth benches equal or surpass what I had running the memory at looser timings of 4,4,4,10 in excess of DDR2-800.

My system is in a cyber-junk test-chassis with open sidepanel. I'm currently using an "original" TR Ultra-120 -- the model that preceded the "Extreme" version. Under ORTHOS at 75F room ambient, my load temperature peaks at an average value of 45C. Aigo's load value is 53C with water-cooling.

I'm using Crucial Ballistix DDR2-1000 modules, and I'd have to look at the specs for his "Tracers." But I'm not twisting up the voltage and pushing the system any farther than the 3.24 Ghz until I've finished building my case, modding my Ultra-120-Extreme, custom-mixing my thermal paste, and installing my motherboard ducts.

I'm not poo-pooing water-cooling and other approaches, but I've chosen to see what I can squeeze from air-cooling options. ChefJoe's report on his Swiftech water-cooling kit seems to conform to my observations about rated thermal resistance and load temperatures.

If we all wanted to, we could go buy a VapoChill Prometeia or Lightspeed kit, get a new power-supply and boost our monthly utility bill. We'd fiddle with foam grommets to insulate the chilled components, but we could probably push an E6600 to some 5 Ghz -- I think I've seen it done in the database at FutureMark.

So, without having a p_____g contest about "who wins," there are options, people pick the options they want, and attempt to optimize the equipment's performance within the option parameters.

WAIT! your using nvidia monitor to messure temps?
This is where u went wrong. Use coretemp buddy.

NVmonitor is very inaccurate. Your picking your own numbers here. Pull a coretemp and then start posting.

Im sorry, but the only p___________g post i am doing is to prove what this thread asks. Is air better or as good as water?

The answer to this question is NO. Air cant match water. If your still looking at NVmonitor to view coretemps on a C2D chip, then your still far from understanding truely how temps work, and also how to overclock.

The first nono in overclocking and temp monitoring is to use NVmonitor, or Bios monitor. If coretemp works on your platform, Coretemp is the most accurate. Then it would be TAT, or speedfan.

So please stop passing rumors about how your air setup gets close to my water. It doesnt. The numbers you are picking off nview are completely wrong. I have proven it 10x that its wrong.

 

[nealh]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: BonzaiDuck
Aigomorla has an E6600 clocked at 3.6 Ghz, running a divider with his memory and timings of 4,4,4,8 at DDR2-1077. If he were running his system at 1:1 with 2*DDR2 = FSB_QDR, his memory would be running at DDR2-800. His VCORE seems to be set at 1.45V, because that's what the nVidia monitor program reports -- the setting.

I chose to overclock my E6600 to 3.24 Ghz, and the Vcore is about 1.40V. My memory timings are 3, 4, 4, 8 -- and I'm running the memory at a 1:1 divider of 2*[DDR2] = FSB, or 720 Mhz DDR2 and 1440 Mhz FSB. My memory bandwidth benches equal or surpass what I had running the memory at looser timings of 4,4,4,10 in excess of DDR2-800.

My system is in a cyber-junk test-chassis with open sidepanel. I'm currently using an "original" TR Ultra-120 -- the model that preceded the "Extreme" version. Under ORTHOS at 75F room ambient, my load temperature peaks at an average value of 45C. Aigo's load value is 53C with water-cooling.

I'm using Crucial Ballistix DDR2-1000 modules, and I'd have to look at the specs for his "Tracers." But I'm not twisting up the voltage and pushing the system any farther than the 3.24 Ghz until I've finished building my case, modding my Ultra-120-Extreme, custom-mixing my thermal paste, and installing my motherboard ducts.

I'm not poo-pooing water-cooling and other approaches, but I've chosen to see what I can squeeze from air-cooling options. ChefJoe's report on his Swiftech water-cooling kit seems to conform to my observations about rated thermal resistance and load temperatures.

If we all wanted to, we could go buy a VapoChill Prometeia or Lightspeed kit, get a new power-supply and boost our monthly utility bill. We'd fiddle with foam grommets to insulate the chilled components, but we could probably push an E6600 to some 5 Ghz -- I think I've seen it done in the database at FutureMark.

So, without having a p_____g contest about "who wins," there are options, people pick the options they want, and attempt to optimize the equipment's performance within the option parameters.

WAIT! your using nvidia monitor to messure temps?
This is where u went wrong. Use coretemp buddy.

NVmonitor is very inaccurate. Your picking your own numbers here. Pull a coretemp and then start posting.

Im sorry, but the only p___________g post i am doing is to prove what this thread asks. Is air better or as good as water?

The answer to this question is NO. Air cant match water. If your still looking at NVmonitor to view coretemps on a C2D chip, then your still far from understanding truely how temps work, and also how to overclock.

The first nono in overclocking and temp monitoring is to use NVmonitor, or Bios monitor. If coretemp works on your platform, Coretemp is the most accurate. Then it would be TAT, or speedfan.

So please stop passing rumors about how your air setup gets close to my water. It doesnt. The numbers you are picking off nview are completely wrong. I have proven it 10x that its wrong.

Kinda beat you to the punch...yea for me

AIr is very good today, no dubt but for a bit more a cpu can be cooeld in a waterloop for not alot more and on quad cores ..there will be no other way to go IMHO to get the best OCing results

 

[aigomorla]

heh neal, yeah you beat me to it.

I never said air was crap. In fact if you look at my first post, i clearly said you'll wish your on air.

I recomend air to more people then water. Its only truely when you have the budget, and time for migration, that i recomend it.

So Is water for everyone? No, i would no way in hell watercool my enterprise computer at the office. I do however watercool all my main rigs, and personal rigs at home. Thats 3 quadcores + 1 E6600 + 1 AMD X2-3800

Thats 5 machines total that i watercool. Why do i watercool them? Because it helps the lifespam of the units when under load 100% 24/7.

Most people dont load there machines 100% all the time. All my machines NEVER have a downtime unless a hardware malfunctioned on them. My office computer, i can care a rats butt about, becuase its a dell, and my company offers onsite repair from dell with all the machines i buy.

And i have no choice but dell in my office. :\

 

[nealh]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
heh neal, yeah you beat me to it.

I never said air was crap. In fact if you look at my first post, i clearly said you'll wish your on air.

I recomend air to more people then water. Its only truely when you have the budget, and time for migration, that i recomend it.

I hope you dont thinking I was questioning you on saying air was crap...absolutely not

I was simply reaffirming air is an excellent choice..and yes water is initially very intimidating...but I promise you if I can do it anyone can...my wife was shocked whe nI did not destroy any of my parts or had no leaks..still is to this day..I am not handy and that is being nice

I find watercooling very addictive...I have a D5 pumping sitting unuseds as well as an alphacool and Radiical top for a DDC2

I have a PA120.3 waiting for a new home(do I need this no..but I want to use the biggest and baddest....so I need a new case and of course a new cpu block too)

Trying to buy a second DDC2(non 3.2 version) just to have..LOL

But I am proud I was able to get my WCing setup fully internalized into a P180 case and can remove the entire loop en bloc without draining..much easier to bleed..faster too)