water cooling vs heatsink cooling vs any other type????

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Spanki

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Mar 11, 2007
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Originally posted by: aigomorla
Originally posted by: Spanki
A sincere question for your WC folks... has anyone measured the temperature of the water exiting the radiator (entering the cpu block) ?

It seems to me that it will still be above 'room temperature' - how far above, is the question - and I'm sure it varies based on radiator size/efficiency, water flow rate and fan airflow, but isn't this one disadvantage to water cooling vs air ? There's lots of "fresh, room temerature air" available to air coolers, but I assume that water coolers "start out" cooler than they "end up" after running a bit (ramping up from room temperature to whatever the efficiency level of your rad setup is).

I'm not implying that this makes air coolers superior, just noting that you have to take that into consideration when you're speculating about how fast heat is being 'swept away' by the in-coming 'cool water'... obviously water is a much better conductor of heat than air is, but just how 'cool' is that water? (I seriously don't know)

well i have temp probes in my reservoir. They come off after the cpu block.

Currently, at 100% load the ambients are around 74F

My coolant for cpu and gpu are: 27.5C and 28.1C respectively

im on dual loops also btw

So... 27.5C = 81.5F for the cpu... but that's the temp of the water coming out of the cpu, not going in, right? I was curious about the water going in (ie. how effective your rad is).

Edit: actually, that's only 6F above ambient, which is what I might expect coming out of the rad, so maybe I misunderstood.

Edit #2: Or... .. maybe due to the relatively high water flow rate, the delta water temps (entering and exiting the cpu) never really diverge that much, while still wisking heat away from the cpu.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
20,893
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Originally posted by: Spanki
Originally posted by: aigomorla
Originally posted by: Spanki
A sincere question for your WC folks... has anyone measured the temperature of the water exiting the radiator (entering the cpu block) ?

It seems to me that it will still be above 'room temperature' - how far above, is the question - and I'm sure it varies based on radiator size/efficiency, water flow rate and fan airflow, but isn't this one disadvantage to water cooling vs air ? There's lots of "fresh, room temerature air" available to air coolers, but I assume that water coolers "start out" cooler than they "end up" after running a bit (ramping up from room temperature to whatever the efficiency level of your rad setup is).

I'm not implying that this makes air coolers superior, just noting that you have to take that into consideration when you're speculating about how fast heat is being 'swept away' by the in-coming 'cool water'... obviously water is a much better conductor of heat than air is, but just how 'cool' is that water? (I seriously don't know)

well i have temp probes in my reservoir. They come off after the cpu block.

Currently, at 100% load the ambients are around 74F

My coolant for cpu and gpu are: 27.5C and 28.1C respectively

im on dual loops also btw

So... 27.5C = 81.5F for the cpu... but that's the temp of the water coming out of the cpu, not going in, right? I was curious about the water going in (ie. how effective your rad is).

Edit: actually, that's only 6F above ambient, which is what I might expect coming out of the rad, so maybe I misunderstood.

Edit #2: Or... .. maybe due to the relatively high water flow rate, the delta water temps (entering and exiting the cpu) never really diverge that much, while still wisking heat away from the cpu.

its water coming out of the block.

With my setup, i would think my water lvl would get really close to ambient as it exits my radiator.

Im running a IWAKI RD-30 with a PA120.3
 

Spanki

Member
Mar 11, 2007
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its water coming out of the block.

With my setup, i would think my water lvl would get really close to ambient as it exits my radiator.

Im running a IWAKI RD-30 with a PA120.3

Ahh, interesting, thanks. So, one way of looking at it is that at most, water is taking away 6.5F per pass through the cpu block (but continuously... kinda hard to quantify in these terms). Although (assuming that rad is not 100% efficient), I'm guessing its a few F less than that... interesting.

Edit: Heh.. early-morning math-brain not working: 81.5 - 74 = 7.5, not 6.5, but who's counting?
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,879
1,549
126
My experience with that issue has been that you can get a high-powered fan with a wide speed range, and then control it (at 12V) so that the idle speed is between 1,000 and 1,800 rpm, with a load speed maxxing out around 2,400 or 2,500 rpm. With the right fan, you'd have a lack of motor-noise, and mostly the noise from air turbulence, but at 2,500, that's not likely to be much of a problem, either -- if the case is closed. But you have to get "the right fan." And there are other irritating noise components, like bearing-rattle.

I'm still very much in favor of noise-deadening solutions, although the Akasa and Spire products have such a dependable adhesive that it is a true PITA to remove them. In my ducting mods, when I used foam-art-board, it significantly lessened noise from the CPU fan. When I switched to Lexan duct-panels, the noise was higher, but less than with no ducting.

I think mnpctech sells a different type of noise-deadening panel -- it looks corrugated, and I don't know if it's a foam product or something more the consistency of fiber or paper.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,879
1,549
126
ah -- I see many posts since I last sat at my desk. I meant the issue of fan-noise. My apologies for the confusion.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,627
5,309
136
I bought an Asetek kit for my first WC setup and I've enjoyed the relative hassle free setup, and the effectiveness of it. Running three Noiseblocker SX2 120mm @1100rpm (30%) and having temperature controlled fan speed included in the kit, made the setup to never rise above 50C, as the fans run at 50% when the temps rise above 45C. I prefer silence to extreme o/c so instead of buying high speed fans I bought these. The noisiest part my this setup is my harddrive. The temps in my sig is running with the fans at 70%, but as there was no difference in stable o/c I decided to lower fan speed, let the temps rise a bit and enjoy the lack of fan noise.
 

ChefJoe

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2002
2,506
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Spanki: Considering most closed loops flow at >1 gpm (3.7 L/min) without much restriction and have a volume in the 0.5-1L range, I really doubt a cooling loop actually has distinct hot and cold areas (maybe local heat sources and heat sinks but the water is probably the same temp +- a few degrees C the whole way through). Water is just used because it has a much greater heat capacity than air and can take all that energy and efficiently distribute it. (see "specific heat capacity" for numbers). While everyone is posting their overclock temps that's the temperature at the CPU die (or the thermistors mounted under the CPU) and is certainly not the temperature of the water at the water block.

I guess the way to quickly test this would really be using an IR-based temperature probe at the water block and at the radiator (or a well mounted sensor if you prefer).
 

ChefJoe

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2002
2,506
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Originally posted by: aigomorla
Originally posted by: ChefJoe
aigomorla:
According to the product literature, an MCR220-QP with 3/8" tubes and a reasonable flow rate handles 300-350 Watts of heat at 12 volts. Your figure is closer to the 7 volt statistic.

http://www.swiftnets.com/products/MCR220-QP.asp
SWIFTTECH

sorry, but about 70-80% of the people running watercooling tends to run there fans downvolted.

But your right, if you blast it at the full 12V at over 80-90+ CFM. Then yes that number will go higher.


As for me and most people, we watercool for silence as well as performance. :T


So i think my numbers are acutally near real world values.

I certainly like watercooling for silence too but if you're talking about the peak thermal output I think it's fine to talk about running your fans at the max. The numbers you're giving are for full load so why not let the fans run like that too (via speedfan, bios, thermistor-based temp control, etc)?

Otherwise you should be quoting what the idle heat output is and designing somewhere between that and max (unless your system is at 100% cpu all the time).
 

Spanki

Member
Mar 11, 2007
132
0
0
Originally posted by: ChefJoe
Spanki: Considering most closed loops flow at >1 gpm (3.7 L/min) without much restriction and have a volume in the 0.5-1L range, I really doubt a cooling loop actually has distinct hot and cold areas (maybe local heat sources and heat sinks but the water is probably the same temp +- a few degrees C the whole way through). Water is just used because it has a much greater heat capacity than air and can take all that energy and efficiently distribute it. (see "specific heat capacity" for numbers). While everyone is posting their overclock temps that's the temperature at the CPU die (or the thermistors mounted under the CPU) and is certainly not the temperature of the water at the water block.

I guess the way to quickly test this would really be using an IR-based temperature probe at the water block and at the radiator (or a well mounted sensor if you prefer).

Thanks and yes, I kinda came to that same conclusion above - there may not actually be much of a delta (relatively speaking) between pre and post cpu block, or pre and post radiator, for that matter - but certainly the radiator is there for a purpose ... and some (bigger, more fans, more efficient, etc) will perform better than others, so I guess I'm still curious just how much deltaT there is.

I guess a related question would be how the gpm rate affects cooling ability... it seems that faster flow rates would help keep the water from getting heat-saturated in the cpu block, but there would be a corresponding speed-up through the radiator, allowing less time to get the heat back out. I'm sure there's some amount of tuning that needs to be done to find that opimal speed for each system (I've never worked with WC setups, so this is all just speculation/curiousness on my part).

 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,879
1,549
126
Mmmm.

2007 Silver Dollar -- 2.96 mm before lapping; 1.6 mm after lapping, finished with 400 wet-or-dry. It is perfectly flat, measured around 360-degrees of its circumference with a digital caliper, and at different distances from edge to center.

Per the "spread-effect" someone mentioned, it would apply as well to the proximity of heat-pipes to the CPU heat-spreader, and a fortieth of an inch of silver shouldn't matter.

The two 3"x3" square, 3/8"-thick steel plates were also lapped. It took about six hours, give or take. We started with 160-grit rouge-colored sandpaper, used a small 6" metal ruler to assess flatness. Moving up to 400 wet-or-dry, you can tell when the squares are perfectly flat as the size of the smooth and visibly "unscratched" mirror surface on the steel grows to the size of the plates -- which originally had bulges and depressions. An opportunity to comb my hair without interrupting my tasks -- first time in weeks.

"Smithing" the diamond particles into the silver surface seemed to work as predicted. The particulate doesn't seem to adhere to the steel, but considerable rubbing of the silver slug doesn't seem to remove much of the dull, gray coating.

I think I will not wait until the case-mod and painting is finished to test this. Today.

JetArt, the Taiwan firm, certainly would have a patent on their product. TR has one on theirs. Penn-Scientific -- ditto. I can't see what two heavy steel mallets and two polished steel plates is going to add to my bank account. Anyway, we're just doing this to see what results we get . . . we're just some nerdy-geek over-clockers. [Although Milton Berle once said: "Everybody wants a little money . . . " Sure, but I just turned a $40 coin-collector's special into $15 at $0.50-per-gram in 30 minutes -- Man! -- talk about alchemy in reverse!]

Whatever -- but it's got to work, or -- no cigar! -- all bets are off. At day's end, like Colin Clive in the 1931 "Frankenstein" movie -- I want to be able to report "It's . . . . A-l-i-ive!! A-l-i-i-ve! Alive, I tell you! . . A-LIVE!! Hah, ha, ha, ha, ha -- hee-hee hee-hee!" [Where's my white lab-smock? ChefJoe? You're the chemist -- do you have a spare?]

Anandtech's reviews (three so far) on the Ultra-120-Extreme show load temps for various over-clockings (and TDPs) of between 43 and 47C -- at their controlled ambient. I guess . . . . we're gonna see . . . . something . . . .

Something . . . . maybe . . . . Only one way to find out . . .
 

Spanki

Member
Mar 11, 2007
132
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...so you've coated two sides of a lapped silver slug with fine diamond powder, by embedding it into the silver, hammering it between two steel plates? And your plan is to use this coated slug (alone) as the TIM between your IHS and HSF? Or are you planning to add two layers of TIM (above and below the silver slug) plus the slug?

Also, I hope you're not intending to get any meaningful comparison with AT's temperatures... replicating thier particular testing setup, without using thier cpu (with unstated core voltages for the ocs) and non-specific-to-the-degree ambient temps and Far Cry demo as "load" app, in a ???? case, with the case fans turned off, is going to be... well, difficult, at best . You'd serve yourself (and others) best by taking your own measurements before and after in as controlled an environment as possible.

Sounds interesting though... looking forward to hearing your results.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,879
1,549
126
"Fritz! Yes, you, you silly hunchback!! Pass the 9" C-clamp, stat!! Then call my patent-attorney!! Spanki says you're going to be up all night!!"
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,879
1,549
126
"No, No, No . . . you Idiot!! You can't snort that stuff -- it's expensive! OK -- gimme a dollar. No! Not THAT dollar, you . . . you . . . Do you want me to send you back to Tony Montana's Columbian lab? Is that what you want? A nice pair of cement boots?"
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,879
1,549
126
OK. Here?s the advance data:

CONTROL #1

E6600 OC?d from 2.4 Ghz to 3.275 Ghz, DDR2-728

Ultra-120 [original, no lapping] and Arctic Silver 5



Settings: VCORE = 1.444V; VDIMM = 2.100V; HT_1.2V = 1.3V; NB = 1.35V; SB = 1.55V

BIOS readings: VCORE = 1.40V; VDIMM = 2.126V; HT_12.V = 1.36V; NB = 1.37V; SB = 1.56V



Room ambient: 72F

ORTHOS run for 1 hour:



After-ORTHOS IDLE VALUES: Core #1: 25C; Core #2: 24C



Observed CoreTemp LOAD VALUES:



Core #1 Core #2

Min = 39C Min = 37C

Max = 51C Max = 51C



CONTROL #2

E6600 ? same settings, same BIOS readings

Ultra-120-Extreme, custom-lapped by Silicon Valley Compucycle, JetArt CK4800 thermal paste 10% diamond-particle



Room ambient 73 to 74F

ORTHOS run for 1 hour:



Core #1 Core #2

IDLE START 23C 22C

IDLE AFTER-ORTHOS 21C 20C



Observed CoreTemp LOAD VALUES:



Core #1 Core #2

Min = 35C Min = 35C

Max = 46C Max = 46C



NOTE:

ORTHOS peak temperatures of 45 and 46C occurred during the first 35 minutes, sustained for some few minutes here and there, with other posted temperatures variously between 41C and 44C. ORTHOS runs different sets of different numbers of Lucas-Lehmer iterations which have Fast Fourier Transforms of different lengths. During the last 20 minutes of the test-run, CoreTemp posted Core#1 and Core#2 temperatures between 35C and 39C, and never exceeded 39C during that 20-minute time-frame.



DR. FRANKENSTEIN TO FRITZ-THE-HUNCHBACK: You won?t have to stay up all night twisting screws, fretting over the motherboard removal and replacement. . . .

FRITZ: Why not, Master?

DR. FRANKENSTEIN: There?s a fan-hole under the processor in the motherboard pan . . .

FRITZ: I don?t understand, Master . . . .

DR. FRANKENSTEIN: It?s the same damn bracket-plate, Idiot!

FRITZ: What if it drops out, Master?

DR. FRANKENSTEIN: Don?t ask questions . . . . go to the computer-refrigeration-project and get me some popsicles . . .

FRITZ: Master? Do you want cherry, lime, or grape?

DR. FRANKENSTEIN: Oh, GEE-SUS!! Grape I guess. Just hurry up and finish your popsicle.

FRITZ: I don?t understand . . .

DR. FRANKENSTEIN: We need the sticks, you Fool!!

FRITZ: The sticks? Do you want me to go to the woodpile?
DR. FRANKENSTEIN: No, you moron ? the POP-sicle sticks! The POP-sicle sticks!

NEXT: MONSTER OF THE NANO-NANO DIAMOND-DIAMOND SLURRY
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,879
1,549
126
INCONCLUSIVE, BUT PROMISING

DIFFICULT APPLICATION

The CK4800 medium has a consistency somewhere between AS3 and AS5. At the moment, I don't have a Mettler balance to weigh the diamond abrasive and mix it by weight, so I attempted to mix equal volumes of the medium and the diamond particles.

People have noted that AS5 is "just a little bit" hard to spread. A 50-50 mixture (by volume) of the particulate diamond and CK4800 is too much like mixing cement without enough water, or a beurre manie or gravy roux with too much flour and too little butter.

It would be acceptable if the stuff was just "hard to spread," but it doesn't stick. It seems more to want to stick to the spreader-paddle than to the processor cap. Then, I would add a quarter-grain of rice-worth of CK4800, in attempt to make the stuff more of a paste and less of a mess.

Finally, I just dumped a very small amount -- maybe a fifth of a coke-spoon's worth -- on the processor cap with the "badly mixed cement," and I attempted to spread it around a bit by chopping at it (as if I were making "lines" on a mirror with people in nosey anticipation behind me. [Just joking -- never tried the stuff -- watch too many TV crime-dramas . . . ] At that point, I decided to drop the Ultra-120-Extreme on the processor-cap hoping to squish the stuff around enough to get it to spread evenly.

Once I got the heatsink squarely on "the mess," and tightened the screws, I twisted the heatsink to spread the mix around more evenly.

Also, my testing at this point leaves something to be desired. I should turn on CoreTemp's logging, first of all. So I'm the first to admit at this point that I myself am afraid of biassing the results. What I had done before, and what I did this time, was to return to the machine every ten minutes and watch the temperature values for a three-minute period. At first, I watched the temperatures for a solid 16 minutes:

Idle Start: #1 = 22C #2=21C [room ambient 73F]

Observed LOAD VALUES, 0 to 16 minutes: between 34C and 40C -- both cores #1 and #2

Observed LOAD VALUES at times between 17 minutes and 45 minutes:

#1 #2
min 34 32
max 45 45

The high values tended more to stay within the 41C to 44C range than with "CONTROL #2." Instances where temperatures reached 45C seemed shorter and less frequent. Further, temperatures for both cores stayed within the range of 34C to 40C during the first 16 minutes and the last 15 minutes of the ORTHOS 1-hour test period. This also "seemed" to show lower temperatures more prevalent for a longer time than for the Control #2.

I think before I add the "Silver Eagle" to this mix, I will run this same test again and log temperatures with CoreTemp. Then, there will be a basis for a solid statistical average.

The local coin-dealer says I can use his Mettler balance, which has an accuracy of +/- 0.1 gram. I have a feeling that this diamond powder needs a medium with properties that allows it to spread and stick, and that othewise, we're not going to get a 70% to 90% diamond mix by weight.

In the meantime, I suggest laying down a rice-grain's-worth of CK4800, and sprinkling (oh so carefully) enough diamond dust on it in a uniform layer, then pop on the heatsink, twist a few times, and let-er-rip.

I'll be back with a re-test in the next few days, and then "on to the Silver Eagle." At least, if the coin-trick degrades performance and temperatures instead of improving them, I can stick in my popsicle sticks and remove the heatsink without taking out the motherboard.

Also -- anyone worried about the coin "dropping out" and causing problems needs to understand that the particulate diamond is an abrasive, and offers the same resistance to movement that occurs with some 320 or 400-grit wet-or-dry sandpaper without water.

There are also open options about other "mediums." One could use a silicon-aluminum_oxide-boron_nitride paste such as can be found bundled with heatsinks. We also considered using "Cool-laboratory's "liquid metal." I have misgivings about this latter idea -- profound ones.

The diamond dust clings to the vial in which it was shipped. The stuff is non-conductive, and opinions have been offered that it cannot become statically charged. However, the Cool-laboratory product is hard enough to spread because it behaves like mercury, and one wonders what might happen if it would cling to diamond particles, or if those particles might then become airborne.

Since diamond is preferred because it is electrically non-conductive but thermally highly conductive, I won't even bother mixing this stuff with AS3 -- certainly not AS5. The CK4800 has about the same consistency as AS3, or only slightly thicker.
 

drakore

Senior member
Aug 15, 2006
449
0
0
Nice values.... very impressive to say the least... pics are still required from you BonzaiDuck!!!
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,879
1,549
126
Do you need pics of screenshots? Or pics of the case-in-progress with the ducting?

I haven't installed WinSnap on the test machine, and try and run my ORTHOS tests "clean." I forgot and left my Kaspersky running at one time with ORTHOS, and the auto-downloads, together with the temperature monitor fouled up the test run. It may have been teetering on the margin then, because I remember now I was testing it at a 1,460+ FSB setting, and I've tuned it down to 1,456 and bumped up the 1.2_HT, NB and SB voltages a tad -- which seemed to get rid of the instability I was experiencing anyway -- at the 1,456 setting.

Generally, the temps I've had at this recent setting are about what I was getting at 1,440, until I changed the cooler and started toying with the TIM mixture.

The case IS COMING ALONG. I still have to strip the IBM beige off the case-shroud to bare metal, and there's some of the "bad" Duplicolor paint -- about a half-square-foot -- that needs to be erased from the case interior (mostly bare-metal now). After that, etching primer, followed by Rustoleum Gloss Black Enamel, followed by . . . .. "KILLER CANS."

Also, as I said, I want to get this build in as a contest entry, but I also want to post the record of it here. But that shouldn't delay things too much.
 
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