WC vs. SI-120

[seiyafan]

I am just wondering how many degrees can a decent water cooling rig drop vs. SI-120

 

[JEDIYoda]

The problem is you say "descent"...depending on the individual a basic water cooling set up could be considered descent.

I would tell you that I believe the difference is negligible!

Unless compared to somebody who has spent $$$$ on there custom water cooling rigg!!

Mind you thats just my opinion!!

Remember opinions are like....well never mind...lol....needless to say everybody has one!!

 

[CraKaJaX]

like jedi said... depends how much you are going to spend on your watercooling setup. some are cheap and junk. but others are amazing, except expensive
i've never dealt with watercooling.... but i might buy a kit one of these days just to play with it. would be cool to work with

 

[seiyafan]

Well, I mean something like:

Pump - Swiftech MCP655
Radiator - BlackIce Xtreme III
CPU Block - Swiftech Storm
Video Block - DangerDen Acetal Maze4
Reservoir - Swiftech MCRES-525
Swiftech RadBox to rearmount the Radiator

 

[JBDan]

Taking a educated guess here so WC users chime in...With 3 mid- high speed fans (ie 60+ cfm) on the rad and the room temp around 22C (72F)
I would think an idle temp on a stock 3500+ Winchester (what I have) w/ the above WC kit would be close to that room temp> 22-24C. With air cooling (XP120+Nexus) my 3500+ Win at stock speeds idles at 35-37C. Under load on that WC kit I would guess low to mid 30'sC. My air is 46-48C under load. I use RMClock and oc to 2.4. My idle is 31C and loads up to about 1 hour stick at 44-45C. After an hour or so of load it peaks at 47C. Soooo many variables (fan speeds, case airflow, case components, wiring, room temps, etc....) that there is no definitive answer to your question until you try it out or find someone with a replica of your system and conditions that uses WC'ing.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

In some other posts last week, I compared the thermal resistance of what I "thought" were three different Swiftech water-cooling kits -- with that of the SI-120.

Under clearly understood and accurate assessments of Processor Model and the particular model's "Maximum [Thermal] Power," three or more independent reviews of the ThermalRight SI-120 prove that it's thermal resistance approaches 0.14 C/W in a fan-speed range of 2,000 to 2,900 rpm. Assume that there are differences in fan design and quality, but there is pretty much a linear relationship between fan speed and CFM of throughput for a range of 120mm fans of different manufacture. This of course would include two slightly different ranges for 120x25mm and 120x38mm fans respsectively, but -- yes -- a linear relationship.

If you check Sidewinder Computers (online) and look at there water-cooling kits, either "THE" best or one of the very best in the Swiftech line -- selling at Sidewinder for $259 -- is the Swiftech H20-APEX "EXTREME DUTY" Kit with the "Storm" waterblock.

At the bottom of the kit's description page, there is a table of the kit's performance at three different fan-voltage settings (and there is a linear relationship between fan-voltage and rpm's). This was the table I thought referred to three different Swiftech kits, but -- no matter.

The table shows a range of thermal resistances for the Swiftech kit with extremes of 0.125 C/W and 0.157 C/W.

By comparison, the thermal resistance of the XP-120 at the "high" threshold of some fan rpms is 0.167 C/W, and the thermal resistance of the SI-120 is 0.14 C/W. That is, running the fan on the SI-120 to some minimum level between 2,000 and 2,900 rpms will achieve a thermal resistance of that value.

The fan on the Swiftech kit showing a thermal resistance of 0.137 C/W is running at about 58% of the rpms exhibited by the fan setting at 12 V -- that is, a 7V fan setting exhibits a thermal resistance for the Swiftech Extreme Duty kit of 0.137 C/W -- very close to the rated thermal resistance of the ThermalRight SI-120. Check again, but I do not recall that ad showing the actual fan speed, although it does show the noise levels for the different fan volting.

The review at OverClockers.Com by Joe Citarella August 27, 2005, showed the 0.14 C/W value for the SI-120 for a 120mm fan (12V) running at 2,900rpm. Fan speeds as low as 1,800 rpm showed a thermal resistance of 0.15 C/W, and speeds of just over 950 rpm exhibited a thermal resistance of 0.18 C/W -- still better than the Zalman CNPS-7700-Cu with the fan on its "high" setting.

There are, however, other factors you will notice when comparing water-cooling to heatpipe cooling. The idle CPU temperature for water-cooling may be lower than that for a heatpipe cooler. On the other hand, thermal resistance, for any particular processor model of a certain "Maximum [thermal] Power," will completely determine the spread or difference between IDLE CPU temperatures and LOAD CPU temperatures. In other words, thermal resistance determines the minimum and maximum of your computer CPU's temperature variation over the entire range of computer usage.

But I believe there are other things that can be done to a computer, its case, ventilation and other features which will close the IDLE temperature "gap" between heatsink-heatpipe and water-cooling systems.

Even so, it is the variability of temperature, as much as anything else, that we would like to reduce -- starting at the lowest possible idle temperature.

 

[Mrvile]

Originally posted by: seiyafan
Well, I mean something like:

Pump - Swiftech MCP655
Radiator - BlackIce Xtreme III
CPU Block - Swiftech Storm
Video Block - DangerDen Acetal Maze4
Reservoir - Swiftech MCRES-525
Swiftech RadBox to rearmount the Radiator

You call that decent? :roll: That's pretty top-of-the-line to me...

 

[mindwreck]

Originally posted by: seiyafan
Well, I mean something like:

Pump - Swiftech MCP655
Radiator - BlackIce Xtreme III
CPU Block - Swiftech Storm
Video Block - DangerDen Acetal Maze4
Reservoir - Swiftech MCRES-525
Swiftech RadBox to rearmount the Radiator

using the radbox to mount a radiator of that size is highly unrecommended. you put way too much stress the on back panel.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Well, I think that would depend on the case. If one were to worry about stress on the back-panel, you could go down to the sheet-metal store, buy a 2'x3' piece of steel, cut a piece to reinforce the back-panel using pop-rivets, and the bolt the radbox back on . . .

 

[ElTorrente]

It just depends on the person. Watercooling was A LOT of fun for me to setup, and I like having projects to work on like this.

Air cooling with a good cooler will do very well though, you'll miss out on a few hundred mhz and all that increased voltage to get there - but really you can get pretty far on air cooling and PLENTY of performance. It just depends on how much money you want to spend, and if you even want to mess around with liquid cooling or not.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Here's my experience so far on the SI-120.

I'm upgrading a 3.0C Northwood to a 3.2E Prescott. Skipping various details as to the logistics of testing and swapping, I've been running the 3.2E with an improved version of the same mobo model (from ASUS P4P800 to ASUS P4P800 SE). It's an open midtower chassis, no ducting, no intake fans. The 3.2E is fitted with the ThermalRight SI-120, while the 3.0C@3.54 Ghz is fitted with the XP-120, which has long since passed curing of the AS5 thermal interface compound.

The Prescott has been running -- on and off, but stable -- over the last 16 hours. The only basis at this point for comparison is the BIOS thermal monitor screen.

The Prescott at idle posts the BIOS value for CPu temperature as about 109F, while the Northwood is showing values around 108.5F. The mobo temperatures vary between the two configurations a bit more -- the Prescott being hotter, but I've given a few reasons as to why there would be a difference there.

As far as breaking even on temperatures between a cooler and hotter processor, same motherboard (essentially, but I really like the SE's BIOS enhancements), ducting in the cooler system and nothing but a test chassis, CPU-fan and PSU fan moving air around the Prescott, I'll say this:

"SI-120. So far . . . . Two Thumbs up!!"

 

[imported_zoom314]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
The problem is you say "descent"...depending on the individual a basic water cooling set up could be considered descent.

I would tell you that I believe the difference is negligible!

Unless compared to somebody who has spent $$$$ on there custom water cooling rigg!!

Mind you thats just my opinion!!

Remember opinions are like....well never mind...lol....needless to say everybody has one!!

Actually He used the right word, Since descent means to go down or to dive(airplane vs submarine).

Me I have 3 XP-120 heatsinks and the two that were and are for My 2nd PC showed good results on the Bios and yeah that's at idle alright. I may replace one with an SI-120 or buy two as one of those XP-120 heatsinks blocks 1 of My 8 Dimm slots and with that slot blocked I only have 6 usable slots left on My H8DCE, Of course I need to see how well SM will did once I get the motherboard back from RMA(Repair or Replace). Click here for My H8DCE Image

 

[JEDIYoda]

??????

 

[imported_zoom314]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
??????

The original poster used the right word. If that is why You're puzzled. As to WC I believe Swiftech is very good, But I can afford air cooling and so XP-120 heatsinks do Ok, The cpu temp right now on My overclocked 3200+ 90nm cpu is 37C right now. Of course I have the swamp cooler on right now and soon I'll turn It off as It's getting to be near 66F in here and so the cpu temp will rise somewhat, In the day time It will run at about 45C or so and at night about 39-40C. These temps are while crunching for Seti at full load(100%).

 

[JEDIYoda]

actually I knew what the author was refering to and the swifttech is a very good entry level water system.....

Also my idle temp is almost the same with or without my system Oc`d....
if I remember my CPU runs much hotter than your AMD....

With my system Oc`d my idle temp is a mere 29c--30c......most of the time the temperature in here is around 72 degrees farenhiet.....lol....

Usually theres not any variation to speak of in the morning at night or in the daytime!!

 

[imported_zoom314]

Ok.

 

[JEDIYoda]

thx...btw ---Screen Shot XP 120 temp...idle...27c
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/JEDI_Yoda/27c.png

Screen Shot Zalman 9500 temp--idle 27c
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/JEDI_Yoda/Zalman2.jpg

yes I do keep accurate records!!

Have a nice day!!

 

[imported_zoom314]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
thx...btw ---Screen Shot XP 120 temp...idle...27c
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/JEDI_Yoda/27c.png

Screen Shot Zalman 9500 temp--idle 27c
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/JEDI_Yoda/Zalman2.jpg

yes I do keep accurate records!!

Have a nice day!!

I believe You, I do really. I just upped My cpu speed to 2.4GHz and the Temp is now at 42C, Ram is running at 240MHz in zoom2, Not bad for a Via chipset.

It's too bad I would have liked to post links to images here(I self host), Oh well. A custom icon would be nice too, But I didn't see a way to add one.

You too.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Not bad at all!!Nice!!

 

[Bona Fide]

Well I'm betting the SI-120 can keep up with entry-level WC, but a WC setup like that would blow away anything in its path.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Well, Bona Fide, that may all be in the eye of the beholder.

Suppose I take this time to REPORT on the PROGRESS OF THE PRESCOTT-3.2E with COOLING BY SI-120.

**** REPORT ON THE PROGRESS OF P4-3.2E with SI-120 COOOLING ***
[yes, 3 "O"s.]

Uncontrolled factors:
Case Design:

Reference 3.0C@3.54Ghz system is in full-tower, serially-augmented fans, foam-board motherboard duct, VGA heatpipe cooling.

Test system 3.2E is in 90's-era high-quality steel midtower; no intake fans; no exhaust fans; case panel door removed; air from room -- facing side panel of reference system with clearance of 4".

Motherboard: The Northwood is paired with an ASUS P4P800 (original standard edition). The Prescott in the stripped-down midtower is operating with an ASUS P4P800-SE. The SE differs from the P4P800-E Deluxe only with the latter's inclusion of a three-port IDE/SATA RAID controller by Promise Tech. There may be a difference in gigabit-LAN patents, but this is probably insignificant factor.

SPECIAL NOTE: Additional Factors: P4P800-SE preparation:

I "sinked" the Mosfets, PLLs and Southbridge on the P4P800-SE with great thoroughness, using silicone rubber gel as an insulator and Arctic Silver Thermal Adhesive. I chose the MicroCool Kit sold at Sidewinder, and used CoolerMaster "Little Chipset Coolers" (kit of 10) for clearance issues -- for instance, heatsink obstructs full operation of RAM module motherboard latches.

P4 3.2E / SI-120

[OC settings: multiplier = 14 [ASUS "Lock-Free"="Enabled"]; external frequency = 250 Mhz; SDRAM = DDR500; FSB = 1,000 Mhz; mem. latencies: 2.5, 4, 4, 7 (1GB 2x512). VCORE = 1.3752 V. Processor VCORE range: 1.325V to 1.525V. VDIMM = 2.85V. OCZ operation and warranty range: 2.6V to 3.0V]

room temp|CPU idle|CPU idle| CPU load|mobo idle| mobo load


68F 94F 104.0F 86F 92F
75F 100F 109.5F 92F 95F
80F 104F 114.0F 97F 98F

Nothing changes much with the Northwood system, but it's air-flow is directed and controlled to maximum efficiency:

P4 3.0C / XP-120
[OC settings: External Frequency = 236 Mhz; FSB = 944 Mhz; SDRAM = DDR472; latencies: 3, 4, 4, 8 (2 GB 2x1GB). VCORE = "Auto". Processor maximum: 1.55V. VDIMM = 2.75V (OCZ warranty range to 3.0V).

room temp|CPU idle|CPU idle| CPU load|mobo idle| mobo load

68F 84F 104F 81F
75F 93F 111F **see footnote
80F 97F 114F

** motherboard temperatures always seemed mostly a function of air-filter maintenance: higher dust accumulation, higher mobo temps; clean filters, lower mobo temps. So they were never measured for the Northwood. However, the variation between "idle" and "load" mobo temperatures for both machines appears to be identical, as shown in real-time sensor samples.

I sought to record the Prescott mobo temperatures because the mobo temperature range was higher than I was used to seeing with the Northwood.

TENTATIVE CONCLUSIONS: The motherboard temperatures will drop once a VGA card with a more effective cooling solution (e.g., VGA heatpipe) has been introduced to the Prescott system, and ducting provides lower temperatures sampled at the chipset heatsink bottom and the memory-module heat-spreaders.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I'm sorry, correction is in order for the tabulation headings:

Change:
room temp|CPU idle|CPU idle| CPU load|mobo idle| mobo load

to:

room temp|CPU idle|CPU load|mobo idle| mobo load

 

[BonzaiDuck]

ADDENDUM: "LOAD" temperatures measured after 1 hour running PRIME95 "Torture-Test" -> "Large FFT (maximum stress)" test. Measurements taken at settings with stable error-free test records, not necessarily the maximum with equally stable results.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

2nd Addendum to "REport on Progress of 3.2E with SI-120"

The test operating system was Windows 2000 Pro, SP 4. This OS shares much of its kernel with XP Pro, but does not implement "HT" technology or "hyperthreading."

CPU temperatures under HT seem to appear lower than temperatures under Win 2K Pro.

Footnote to footnote: White papers have been published arguing, with experimental data, that hyperthreading actually "works" with Win 2K Pro, even though the OS shows no indication of it. This is contrary to some assertions that HT should be turned "OFF" in BIOS when using a non-HT-"capable" operating system.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

MOJO Galactica Star-Fighter update: Star-Date: 5 days since last post -- earth-time, October 5.

The new motherboard and processor -- fitted with MicroCool Mosfet and chip coolers and a ThermalRight SI-120 -- have now been re-installed in a junk 1996 Pentium-Pro ATX Midtower from a Gateway 2000 G6-200. New vent-holes, sheet-metal reinforcement, and cooling fans have been installed. The case-side-panel has been installed and the case is now "closed." There is no special motherboard ducting yet.

The 3.2E Prescott, OC'd to 3.5 Ghz and FSB= 250 Mhz was installed in the midtower after adding the following fans:

Front Intake -- 120mmx25mm TT Blue-LED, max-rpm = 2,600, 0.48A @ 12VDC, 92 CFM
Exhaust -- Twin rear 80mm case fans, 2 x 36 CFM, 0.20A @ 12VDC.

Mobo-Bottom-Blowhole -- Zalman OP-1 80mm x 15mm, operating at 7VDC.

Front Drive-Bay -- 70mm x 15mm ThermalTake fan, operating at 7VDC.


The room temperature is now 72F / 22C.

Here are the mobo and CPU temperatures of the Prescott 3.2E@3.5 running PRIME95 "Large FFT" Torture-Test:

Load MOBO Temperature: 84F / 29C
Load CPU Temperature: 104F / 40C

No special effort has been made to cool the VGA card beyond its stock cooling solution.

Reducing the motherboard temperature has also dropped the Load CPU temperature for this particular room ambient by about 5F or 2.7C degrees. That is, this CPU Load temperature fits the profile shown without case fans or side-panel for a room ambient of 68F.