[WCCF] AMD Radeon R9 390X Pictured

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sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
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OK, here are my educated guesses about the upcoming lineup.

Prediction: All new chips (except the OEM leftovers and bottom-of-the-barrel crap) will be on Global Foundries 28nm SHP, instead of TSMC.
Rationale: AMD's current TSMC lineup isn't competitive, especially in terms of performance per watt - the one area where Maxwell has absolutely crushed them. The switch from TSMC to GloFo made a big difference with Beema/Mullins; AMD claims 38% lower leakage on that chip's iGPU. Even if the difference isn't that big on desktop-grade GPUs, there's still likely to be a reasonable gain. And AMD is required to buy GloFo wafers under the "take-or-pay" agreement. Kaveri/Godavari is hardly selling like hotcakes, all of the FX chips are both years outdated and on the older 32nm process, and Carrizo is a small chip that may have some niche success, but can't account for $1 billion worth of wafers annually. This leaves discrete GPUs as the only place for AMD to fill their GloFo orders. (And Fiji is way too small a volume to do it alone.) They can pay some money up front to port the designs, get something reasonably competitive until late 2016, and meet their contract with GloFo. The alternative would be to stay with unmodified TSMC rebrands, sell uncompetitive crap until late 2016 (continuing to lose mindshare and market share), and then pay penalties to GloFo under the WSA. I don't think AMD will be stupid enough to try that, though they have done some stupid things in the past.

Prediction: All new chips will have an updated UVD block, similar to that in Carrizo, which will support HEVC decoding. They will also support HDMI 2.0.
Rationale: It is known and demonstrated that Carrizo will have HEVC decoding built in. AMD has traditionally done well in the HTPC market, and a HEVC decoder on discrete cards would obviously be desirable. It would give AMD a leg up over Nvidia, which only has this feature in the GTX 960 (even the Titan X is lacking it). A few months ago, on the DevGuru boards (which have since been rebooted), an AMD employee confirmed all 2015 GPUs would have HEVC support. If AMD has to go to the effort of porting the GPUs to GloFo and incurring all the fixed expenses (tapeout, validation, etc.) then updating the UVD block probably won't be much extra expense on top of that, especially if these chips are designed in a modular fashion using automated or semi-automated tools (which I think they are).

Predicted chip lineup:

  • Fiji: Pretty much what everyone has already deduced from the leaks. 4096 GCN shaders with 4GB of HBM on an interposer. AMD's public statements seem to indicate that it will be 4GB, though it's possible that this could be misdirection and that an 8GB model could be released either immediately or at some point in the future. My money is on 4GB at this point, though.
  • Grenada: Hawaii respun on GloFo. There's a good chance that the Double Precision support will be cut down to reduce the transistor count. Although I would bet against it, it's at least conceivable that they may increase the shader count to 3072, and/or update the architecture to GCN 1.2.
  • Antigua: Tonga respun on GloFo. I don't see many functional changes being performed here except the addition of HEVC decoding.
  • Trinidad: A replacement chip for Pitcairn, probably with the same 1280 shaders, but redone from the ground up as a full GCN 1.2 chip. Another possibility is that this might be a "half-Antigua" the same way that Nvidia's GM206 is almost exactly half of a GM204. The only issue is that doing so would put Trinidad behind full Pitcairn in some benchmarks (1024 shaders vs 1280). Still, that could save some money and would still be a competitive product at $99-$149 if the perf/watt was good enough.
Predicted card lineup:

  • Fury XT: The top-tier water-cooled card that has been teased recently. At $849, this will go up against Titan X with approximately 5% better performance. Nvidia will focus on their brand equity and higher VRAM count in competing against it.
  • Fury Pro: Cut down to 3584 shaders, but still sporting 4GB of HBM. It will have to be priced at $499 to compete against the GTX 980 Ti.
  • R9 390X: Full Grenada. TDP (maximum power limit) will be 250W, although it won't go much above 200W during normal gaming. Due to higher clocks and/or architectural updates, performance will be slightly better than GTX 980 (maybe 10% or so), and the 8GB of RAM will bloat the bill of materials, so it will sell at $399. I suspect there will be no reference card, because AMD doesn't have a decent blower and they don't want the bad reviews they got with the Hawaii cards. There's an outside chance that those old shroud pictures which we though were for Fiji were actually meant for a water-cooled edition of the R9 390X with an Asetek CLC.
  • R9 390: Cut-down Grenada with 2560 shaders (or maybe 2688 if Grenada has a total of 3072). Same TDP. Designed to compete against the GTX 970, so it can be priced no higher than $299. It may well only have 4GB of VRAM, since for most users this will be enough.
  • R9 380X: Full Antigua with 4GB of RAM. TDP (maximum power limit) will be around 175W, and it won't go over 150W during normal gaming. Basically, better than Tahiti performance at Pitcairn TDP levels, with all the GCN 1.2 features. At $249, this should easily beat the GTX 960.
  • R9 380: Cut-down Antigua, basically the same as the R9 285 but with much better perf/watt, both because of the new process and because the current 285 is trash silicon. One power connector, so the maximum TDP is 150W. Won't go over about 125W in normal gaming. May be available with either 2GB or 4GB of VRAM and should have a price around $199.
  • R9 370X: Full Trinidad. 100W TDP, designed to beat the GTX 750 Ti in performance (though not perf/watt) at a similar price level. With 2GB of VRAM this should cost no more than $149.
  • R9 370: Cut-down Trinidad (or maybe just downclocked?) with a 75W TDP so that it requires no external power connector. This will compete in the same market that the GTX 750/750 Ti is currently in. If AMD can hit a shelf price of $99, then it would be a tempting upgrade for people who want to add gaming capabilities to an OEM system. HEVC decoding would be especially nice to have in these kind of systems, because they may not be strong enough to do it on the CPU alone.
What do you think? Does that sound reasonable?
Those sound like reasonable prices. I'd go for the fury pro if it performs better or similar to 980 Ti. But then again we won't know for sure.
 

Illyan

Member
Jan 23, 2008
86
0
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My prediction:

Fiji ~$800-1000 depending on if there are cut down versions, and performance all over the place but generally >= Titan X

Everything else: a bunch of angry gpu enthusiasts who created complex and intricate hierarchies of speculative hawaii/tonga derived gpus based on the well informed evidence that they don't want the 300 series to be straight rebrands, only to find out the rest of the 300 series are straight rebrands.
 

xthetenth

Golden Member
Oct 14, 2014
1,800
529
106
There are multiple compelling reasons for the 300 series not to be straight rebrands. Time will tell though.
 

Azix

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2014
1,438
67
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It certainly doesnt perform any better than Hawaii so they havent increased performance for the cores.

It could be GCN 1.2 or something like that, with better TDP/power consumption though, you could be right about that.

If you want to assume that chart is legit. Why though?
 

Bobisuruncle54

Senior member
Oct 19, 2011
333
0
0
My prediction:

Fiji ~$800-1000 depending on if there are cut down versions, and performance all over the place but generally >= Titan X

Everything else: a bunch of angry gpu enthusiasts who created complex and intricate hierarchies of speculative hawaii/tonga derived gpus based on the well informed evidence that they don't want the 300 series to be straight rebrands, only to find out the rest of the 300 series are straight rebrands.

"angry gpu enthusiasts"?
 
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
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only to find out the rest of the 300 series are straight rebrands.

It's near concrete that AMD is moving all new GPU production to GloFo per their agreement, contracts signed (you don't pay $ to not use the capacity) and also their investor's connections.

A switch from TSMC to improved GloFo 28nm already rules out a straight rebrand.

The only unknown here is during the switch, will they add any uarch tweaks? That is up for speculation.

Scenario 1: No uarch changes (possible for reasons of R&D investment), just straight porting, allowing slightly higher clocks and major power reduction.

390X = 1,050mhz R290X with 25-35% less power use. Currently, R290X is around 250W average gaming load (lots of custom models are ~235W), 30% less power use = ~180W gaming load. Less leakage also enables more OC headroom.

What does that mean versus the competition? Currently R290X is right at the heels of the 980, ~10% performance deficit. If 390X in the leaked charts is 7% above R290X, its basically equal 980 performance at ~180W gaming load. Quite a competitive mid-range SKU.

-------------------------

Scenario 2: uarch changes are made, new video block, tonga ROPs, tonga tessellation, tonga memory compression, at higher clocks with power reduction.

~20% above R290X at ~180W gaming load. Now it ends up faster than 980 with similar power use. More than competitive mid-range SKU.

------------------------

Scenario 3: No changes, still produced from TSMC. AMD suffers market share drops all the way until 14nm.

------------------------

The odds of #3 happening are close to nil.

#1 and 2 are equally possible, we just don't have enough info to go further than speculating.

Edit: @JDG1980
There should be 3 SKU of Fiji, since its a very big chip it can be cut-down twice for yield harvesting. Each chop would be ~10% less than the top tier Fury WCE. ie. XT, PRO, SE.
 
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maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
4,787
4,771
136
It's near concrete that AMD is moving all new GPU production to GloFo per their agreement, contracts signed (you don't pay $ to not use the capacity) and also their investor's connections.

A switch from TSMC to improved GloFo 28nm already rules out a straight rebrand.

The only unknown here is during the switch, will they add any uarch tweaks? That is up for speculation.

Scenario 1: No uarch changes (possible for reasons of R&D investment), just straight porting, allowing slightly higher clocks and major power reduction.

390X = 1,050mhz R290X with 25-35% less power use. Currently, R290X is around 250W average gaming load (lots of custom models are ~235W), 30% less power use = ~180W gaming load. Less leakage also enables more OC headroom.

What does that mean versus the competition? Currently R290X is right at the heels of the 980, ~10% performance deficit. If 390X in the leaked charts is 7% above R290X, its basically equal 980 performance at ~180W gaming load. Quite a competitive mid-range SKU.

-------------------------

Scenario 2: uarch changes are made, new video block, tonga ROPs, tonga tessellation, tonga memory compression, at higher clocks with power reduction.

~20% above R290X at ~180W gaming load. Now it ends up faster than 980 with similar power use. More than competitive mid-range SKU.

------------------------

Scenario 3: No changes, still produced from TSMC. AMD suffers market share drops all the way until 14nm.

------------------------

The odds of #3 happening are close to nil.

#1 and 2 are equally possible, we just don't have enough info to go further than speculating.

Edit: @JDG1980
There should be 3 SKU of Fiji, since its a very big chip it can be cut-down twice for yield harvesting. Each chop would be ~10% less than the top tier Fury WCE. ie. XT, PRO, SE.

I believe #2 is the most likely scenario. The 2 possible improvements below are synergistic.

2) Adaptive clocking allowing lower operating voltage
3) Less leakage with GF process

DAVID KANTER:
Adaptive Clocking in AMD’s Steamroller
http://www.realworldtech.com/steamroller-clocking/

My favorite paper from the ISSCC processor session (5.6) describes an adaptive clocking technique implemented in AMD’s 28nm Steamroller core that compensates for power supply noise.

AMD’s adaptive clocking system in Steamroller is quite attractive, offering a significant improvement in power at a minimal cost in terms of area and a negligible impact on performance.

The techniques described will first appear in AMD’s Steamroller based platforms, but are expected to roll out across other IP blocks potentially including GPUs, ARM cores, and the Jaguar core.

Second, this technique could be applied to AMD’s discrete and integrated GPUs, although it is hard to say how big the benefits would be for GPUs. The target clock frequency for a GPU is 1GHz rather than 3GHz and the clock domains are bigger and contain more cores. On the other hand, since GPUs are so parallel dI/dt events may be much bigger (e.g., if all the shaders in a GPU simultaneously begin executing a floating point kernel). Even if the benefits are just half of what is possible in a CPU, a 5-10% decrease in power is significant for a 250W GPU
 

Illyan

Member
Jan 23, 2008
86
0
66
Ok so the assumptions you're making:

1) AMD moving their new GPU production to glofo < assumption

2) AMD is also moving hawaii/tonga GPU production to glofo < assumption based on #1

3) hawaii/tonga produced at glofo will have better power consumption/clock speed < assumption based on #2

4) hawaii/tonga have uarch modifications resulting in better performance/power consumption/clock speeds < assumption based on #1 and ??? i dont think there have been any leaks to substantiate or even remotely suggest this

And the facts we have:

1) The OEM 380 is |exactly| an R9 285 (source: AMD released 300 series OEM specs)

2) The R9 370 (non-OEM) is |exactly| an R9 270 and cards below 370 are straight rebrands (source: official driver device id)


I think it's possible the 380 non OEM will be full tonga, but thats probably the extent of the differences in the new lineup besides Fiji.
 
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Feb 19, 2009
10,457
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GF production isn't an assumption without solid evidence.

GF themselves already publicly state they are making Fiji, since its the only GPU that uses 2.5D stacking with HBM confirmed so far.

AMD is contracted to spend a lot of money on GF wafers (Lisa Su, conference call). If they don't produce there, they still have to pay. Thus, its foolish not to move their stack over to GF.

Do you know who owns a major share of AMD? The same group who owns GF. There's no incentive for them to produce AMD products at TSMC if GF has the capacity.

So the assumptions here without evidence, is whether its a straight port or will it include uarch changes. That is up for speculation.

ps. Full Tonga is for Apple. As long as Apple is still selling, there's no need for AMD to release a full Tonga SKU for PCs. It's simply not competitive as is, produced by TSMC.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
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The only thing that can move gf 28nm is imo amd gpu. What else?
Amd is 1-1.5 years away from 14nm gf gpu/cpu. So unless amd ofload gpu to gf its a fab without a job.
When 14nm high perf hits i a pretty sure the priority is cpu, apu, mobile gpu, consoles and lastly big gpu for desktop. We can be 2 years away from big 14nm gpu.
We know 28nm is cheap transistor/$ so a big lineup of gpu from gf makes sense.
All in the context of people understanding mubadala own large part of amd and 100% gf. People also needs to understand mubadala have amd by the balls because of the wsa. They effectively control amd 100% because amd needs their money.
A rebrand might strictly make most sense but the wsa clouds that picture.
 

RaulF

Senior member
Jan 18, 2008
844
1
81
Someone posted price of the upcoming R9 300 cards


R9 390X 8GB: $399
R9 390 8GB: $299
R9 380 4GB: $199

If they made uarch changes i can see this being big sellers. :thumbsup: If the 390X matches 980 that would be awesome.

I would think Fiji pro will go h2h with 980Ti, and Fiji XT will beat Ti and might come close or beat TitanX. (wishful thinking).
 
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
10
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Someone posted price of the upcoming R9 300 cards


R9 390X 8GB: $399
R9 390 8GB: $299
R9 380 4GB: $199

Yeah, me. I posted that awhile ago.

All R290/X needs is a drop in power use and it is competitive in the mid-range segment priced $299/$399. The extra vram is just icing on the cake really, not necessary for the performance bracket but it'll help sell to the masses.

This means Fiji SE $499, PRO $599 and XT/WCE can slot in nicely at $799.

Makes for a good & competitive stack. Here's hoping Fiji Fury XT brings the hammer down hard on Titan X.
 

flopper

Senior member
Dec 16, 2005
739
19
76
Yeah, me. I posted that awhile ago.

All R290/X needs is a drop in power use and it is competitive in the mid-range segment priced $299/$399. The extra vram is just icing on the cake really, not necessary for the performance bracket but it'll help sell to the masses.

This means Fiji SE $499, PRO $599 and XT/WCE can slot in nicely at $799.

Makes for a good & competitive stack. Here's hoping Fiji Fury XT brings the hammer down hard on Titan X.

The midrange are key as the 970 been sitting to long there alone.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
I think just 2 Fiji cards this year. Fury Pro and Fury XT, with only one arriving soon.

I don't think we will see an SE model for Fiji.
 

Cloudfire777

Golden Member
Mar 24, 2013
1,787
95
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The cards will stack up as following with the new price for the cards:

GTX 980 4GB: $499 100% performance
R9 390X 8GB: $399 95% performance
GTX 970 4GB: $329 85% performance
R9 390 8GB: $299 85% performance

None of these cards interest me much, Hawaii the least since its rebrands. unless they improved TDP.

GTX 970 in SLI and R9 390 CF seems like a cheap route to get good performance for a good price.

980Ti or Fury for me though
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
4,787
4,771
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The cards will stack up as following with the new price for the cards:

GTX 980 4GB: $499 100% performance
R9 390X 8GB: $399 95% performance
GTX 970 4GB: $329 85% performance
R9 390 8GB: $299 85% performance

None of these cards interest me much, Hawaii the least since its rebrands. unless they improved TDP.

GTX 970 in SLI and R9 390 CF seems like a cheap route to get good performance for a good price.

980Ti or Fury for me though

Are you now recanting your 'leaks' made earlier. The ones with HBM on the mid/lower tier cards?
 

stuff_me_good

Senior member
Nov 2, 2013
206
35
91
The cards will stack up as following with the new price for the cards:

GTX 980 4GB: $499 100% performance
R9 390X 8GB: $399 95% performance
GTX 970 4GB: $329 85% performance
R9 390 8GB: $299 85% performance

None of these cards interest me much, Hawaii the least since its rebrands. unless they improved TDP.

GTX 970 in SLI and R9 390 CF seems like a cheap route to get good performance for a good price.

980Ti or Fury for me though
Talking about broken record.

All I hear from your mouth in this discussion is rebrand rebrand rebrand and yet we know nothing definitive about these new cards. :thumbsdown:
 

parvadomus

Senior member
Dec 11, 2012
685
14
81
I dont see rebranded Hawaii beating 980s. If they dont update them to GCN 1.3 that wont happen.
Anyways I only care about Fury vs 980ti/Titan x.
 

Cloudfire777

Golden Member
Mar 24, 2013
1,787
95
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I dont see rebranded Hawaii beating 980s. If they dont update them to GCN 1.3 that wont happen.
Anyways I only care about Fury vs 980ti/Titan x.
Yeah doesnt look like its beating 980

http://cdn.videocardz.com/1/2015/05/NVIDIA-GeForce-GTX-980TI-R9-300-Hawai-3DMark-FireStrike-Performance.png

Are you now recanting your 'leaks' made earlier. The ones with HBM on the mid/lower tier cards?

No that guy was full of BS.

The price is from chiphell. Take it with some salt. But those Nvidia price is from benchlife and legit.
http://www.chiphell.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1301757&page=1#pid29081673
 
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