[WCCFtech] AMD and NVIDIA DX12 big picture mode

[3DVagabond]

There is a difference in maybe circulating aftermarket cooled 290/xs to reviewers against a complete rebrand.

The difference is perceived. But perception is what matters.

You can circulate as many AIB designed cards as you want to. When they do their performance charts though, it's the reference model that gets included 99% of the time.

 

[EarthwormJim]

imo the best, easiest, cheapest way of getting a "silent" pc is getting decently quiet parts and really long cords and put it far away from you. The inverse square law quickly makes any PC inaudible. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/acoustic/isprob2.html

That's great, but not everyone has space to move a PC away from them. The only spot that would get the computer further from me, is below my desk, which just results in pretty lousy temperatures. Pretty bad airflow.

 

[EarthwormJim]

If you have to buy right now, you have no choice but to go with the fastest card since that's what benchmarks show => 980TI OC > Fury X OC and it has 50% more VRAM as a bonus. If you must go WC, then that's probably the best option if you don't want to upgrade for 5 years. I don't see how it'll be way quieter though since GTX970 cards like MSI Gaming turn off their fans up to 60C and are uber quiet at load. I still think you aren't giving enough credit for some of the best after-market air cooled designs.

I mean wouldn't it be more practical to get a Fractal R5 case and insulate it with sound dampening material vs. spending hundreds of dollars on WC components on a $650 card that drops close to $100 in resale value over a period of 5+ years? Again, it's of course your choice but based on what you described I'd say 980Ti OC on paper appears like the safer bet. IMO both the 980Ti and Fury X will become obsolete at roughly the same time. I expect in 5 years, a flagship card will be ~3.5X faster than the 980Ti. Therefore, no matter what you buy today, it's not going to be more future-proof. GTX580 was slightly more future-proof than HD6950 (BTW if you got your GTX580 for $400, chances are HD6950 was $250 or less and I also recall when GTX580 was $400 it was closing in around November 2011, just mere months before HD7970 came out and crushed it), but ultimately both of those cards got outperformed by so many cheaper cards not long after.

I've played with sound dampening before, you really need a lot to make a difference. Then you start running into heat issues, which you offset with increased fan speed, which adds more noise etc... Keeping moving parts isolated from the case was about as effective.

The water cooling costs aren't that crazy expensive if you look at it long term. The radiators, tubing (using Norprene), pumps, and fans last pretty long. My thermochill PA120.2 and PA120.3 are about 10 years old now, pump is about 5 years old, fans about 5 years old. It's just blocks that I have to buy now days.

I don't disagree with your advice you posted earlier about mid range cards offering better value. The GTX580 at the time wasn't a huge jump up in price though when you factor in full coverage water blocks. I'll probably end up getting an R9 390 or 390x if there are sales soon, my monitor is only 1920x1200 anyway.

 

[FORTHEWIND]

Actually, I think AMD is just that lucky. I don't know about GPU much let alone about programming one but I can make and educated guess.

GCN Gen1 (Tahiti) doesn't even have support for more than 8 ACEs in the first place. After the unveil of PS4 and AMD substantial collaboration with Sony ICE team (Sony really were the push for more ACE, more queue in ACE and async compute (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php?print=1) ) where AMD really start hyping for Async Compute. Even that started with GCN Gen3 (Fiji) not Gen2 (Hawaii)

As for Nvidia, did everyone really forgot nvidia downplay compute starting with GK104? Even GK110 was cripple because nvidia began to relied on the driver to do scheduling instead in hardware like Fermi. Static software scheduling instead of real-time hardware scheduling. Everything from execution to rendering is all baked in the instruction for Kepler, Maxwell . To say Maxwell can do AC well is like saying an In Order design processor can do what an Out of Order design processor can do.

Frankly its not nvidia fault Maxwell can use AC yet. IHV can only do so much on 28nm for their second GPU Arch. Even this Maxwell is not really the real Maxwell. The "real" Maxwell is actually Pascal.

And about everybody raving for AMD and saying that their console dominance is the reason for AC now, I beg to differ. Its history all over again . When both XBOne and PS4 use GCN, people say nvidia performance will tank since dev would just focus on GCN and PC port for AMD's GPU will match console. The opposite of it happens. Nvidia unveil GameWorks and tank AMD performance. When AMD unveil Mantle and marketed it as "A low-level API that can speak GCN Language" tool that dev can use to easily port games from Console-equip GCN GPU to PC , nothing happen. DirextX 12 came and Mantle dissolve into Vulcan. The funny thing is even before Mantle was dissolve AMD focused even more on DX12 than on their on API. With AC, I thinks the same will happen . AMD are really just a tree for nvidia to harvest and sell.

 

[Headfoot]

When AMD unveil Mantle and marketed it as "A low-level API that can speak GCN Language" tool that dev can use to easily port games from Console-equip GCN GPU to PC , nothing happen.

You have a really interesting definition of "nothing happened." Unless you consider Vulkan (e.g. totally rewritten from the ground up OpenGL replacement that's been needed for at least a decade) and DX12 (e.g. totally rewritten from the ground up DirectX replacement that's been desired by devs for at a decade) to be "nothing"

 

[FORTHEWIND]

You have a really interesting definition of "nothing happened." Unless you consider Vulkan (e.g. totally rewritten from the ground up OpenGL replacement that's been needed for at least a decade) and DX12 (e.g. totally rewritten from the ground up DirectX replacement that's been desired by devs for at a decade) to be "nothing"

"DirextX 12 came and Mantle dissolve into Vulcan"

 

[Headfoot]

Dissolve? Thats a pretty obvious weasel word. Mantle is the code base which was forked to make Vulkan which is the OpenGL successor. E.g., not nothing.

 

[railven]

Dissolve? Thats a pretty obvious weasel word. Mantle is the code base which was forked to make Vulkan which is the OpenGL successor. E.g., not nothing.

If I read his post correct, when he said nothing came of it, he implied that console games being ported to PC would inherently have an advantage on Mantle code since it was similar to what was on consoles.

But not many devs went the extra steps and Nvidia stuck a wedge with Gameworks.

Personally didn't read his post as a slam on AMD/Mantle.

EDIT: Think of it, if DirectX 12 is "Mantle" then DX12 for GCN hardare has been around since basically 2013, but console devs porting their games to PC didn't take advantage of it. (Instead some signed up with NV and added Gameworks which hurt AMD performance even though Mantle/DX12 was basically on the table).

 

[tential]

If I read his post correct, when he said nothing came of it, he implied that console games being ported to PC would inherently have an advantage on Mantle code since it was similar to what was on consoles.

But not many devs went the extra steps and Nvidia stuck a wedge with Gameworks.

Personally didn't read his post as a slam on AMD/Mantle.

EDIT: Think of it, if DirectX 12 is "Mantle" then DX12 for GCN hardare has been around since basically 2013, but console devs porting their games to PC didn't take advantage of it. (Instead some signed up with NV and added Gameworks which hurt AMD performance even though Mantle/DX12 was basically on the table).

I don't think many devs have taken full advantage of the hardware yet as has been shown with how few games use the aces on consoles... That's like having nitrous on your car in a race and never using it and losing the race.

I don't care about nv vs amd because I'll buy what works for me. But devs haven't even really used the features yet that much.

I'm interested to see what happens when they actually do as we have a lot of hardware in the world not being fully utilized right now.

It's way too early to tell what the best dx12 hardware is despite many using 1 benchmark to prove otherwise.

 

[TheELF]

I don't think many devs have taken full advantage of the hardware yet as has been shown with how few games use the aces on consoles... That's like having nitrous on your car in a race and never using it and losing the race.

Well think about it,devs wanted x86 in consoles so that porting would be easier,why would they want to make their lives harder by using "special" hardware that only exists in one console? They start the whole game designing with one point in mind,make it as easy as possible to compile it for (the step kid console) and every other platform(pc) .

Now that dx12 will be more widely available they might use more of the universal low api stuff that will run everywhere.

 

[flopper]

"DirextX 12 came and Mantle dissolve into Vulcan"

Mantle came and went into the codebase for Dx12 and Vulkan.
A huge win for AMD

 

[tential]

Well think about it,devs wanted x86 in consoles so that porting would be easier,why would they want to make their lives harder by using "special" hardware that only exists in one console? They start the whole game designing with one point in mind,make it as easy as possible to compile it for (the step kid console) and every other platform(pc) .

Now that dx12 will be more widely available they might use more of the universal low api stuff that will run everywhere.

"Special hardware" doesn't exist in one console it exists in both the xbox one and the PS4.

 

[TheELF]

"Special hardware" doesn't exist in one console it exists in both the xbox one and the PS4.

Ps4 has more ACEs then the xbone so the extra ones are special enough for devs to only code to the specs of the xbone for easier porting.

 

[thilanliyan]

Mantle came and went into the codebase for Dx12 and Vulkan.
A huge win for AMD

Did they (or will they) gain monetarily from it? I hope so, but they don't seem to be that good at making dough lately lol.

 

[tential]

Ps4 has more ACEs then the xbone so the extra ones are special enough for devs to only code to the specs of the xbone for easier porting.

That's great that you recognize this now.

,why would they want to make their lives harder by using "special" hardware that only exists in one console?

Still a completely wrong statement.

We need more devs to use the ACEs... first. Worrying about using extra ACEs isn't relevant when most games aren't using ACEs....

 

[FORTHEWIND]

Mantle came and went into the codebase for Dx12 and Vulkan.
A huge win for AMD

That we have to wait. If what you're saying is true, that Mantle went into DirectX 12 and Vulkan codebase then every upcoming game using it will be superior or much better perform on AMD's GCN than on Nvidia's Arch since it have (quite possibly) every Mantle performance enhancing trick on it. Right?

 

[TheELF]

That's great that you recognize this now.



Still a completely wrong statement.

We need more devs to use the ACEs... first. Worrying about using extra ACEs isn't relevant when most games aren't using ACEs....

But they won't, because no platform has the same amount of ACEs,so they don't bother because they would have to write at least three versions of the same game,not going to happen.

 

[AtenRa]

But they won't, because no platform has the same amount of ACEs,so they don't bother because they would have to write at least three versions of the same game,not going to happen.

They dont write three different versions, they simple change the Image Quality settings or the resolution between the two consoles. For example in PS4 the game will run at 1080p 30fps and on XBone at 900p with 30fps.

 

[Headfoot]

But they won't, because no platform has the same amount of ACEs,so they don't bother because they would have to write at least three versions of the same game,not going to happen.

They already write three versions for three platforms. Your function calls dont magically rearrange their names to match your platform unless you're using an intermediary language that cross compiles to multiple platforms for you (Unity).

 

[tential]

But they won't, because no platform has the same amount of ACEs,so they don't bother because they would have to write at least three versions of the same game,not going to happen.

So devs aren't going to use ACEs since even though 3 platforms support it (Although you incorrectly stated one platform used it despite the fact that you knew that to be incorrect.)
That's your stance?

Ps4 has more ACEs then the xbone so the extra ones are special enough for devs to only code to the specs of the xbone for easier porting.

Oddly enough, in the SAME thread, you state that devs are going to code to the specs of the XBONE for easier porting.

So what is it then...

 

[TheELF]

Oddly enough, in the SAME thread, you state that devs are going to code to the specs of the XBONE for easier porting.

So what is it then...

It's smallest common denominator...as always.
If the game is only for consoles it will be written for the xbox one,if the devs target PC as well, they won't use anything not available everywhere,just recompile and be done with it no matter how bad it turns out,that's what we have been seeing for the last few years.

 

[3DVagabond]

I don't know if everyone remembers when we heard the same talk about Mantle and what the devs said?

I'm not going to go on and on about this because some people will refuse to listen anyway. While it seems to make sense with the limited knowledge that the devs would shoot for the lowest performance target and just make everything there and they only code once, etc... We've had devs tell us that they don't do that. They actually code for multiple platforms anyway and the additional work is minimal.

People who don't actually have any knowledge and are simply rationalizing need to sit down and listen to the experts.

 

[MajinCry]

People who don't actually have any knowledge and are simply rationalizing need to sit down and listen to the experts.

But who will then sit in the armchair!?

 

[3DVagabond]

But who will then sit in the armchair!?

It's the internet. Look around and you'll find your information. It's not here with the "lowest common denominator" crap being spewed out.

All you need to do is look at how many game platforms are out there. There are multiple consoles as well as multiple versions of each console. then there are multiple DX versions. For some devs they are also doing portable gaming as well. Just look at Plants vs. Zombies. Keep in mind that there are multiple versions for some platforms. Also keep in mind that this is just an example. It's not meant as "The definitive game". Because you're going to have some use the rebuttal, that game sucks and who cares about that game, etc...

Like I said, we went round and round about this in the Mantle threads. The people who were on the "Devs won't program for another platform" camp called the Devs shills etc. They just refuse to listen. It's like trying to discuss anything else on these boards. They get separated down red and green lines and go around in circles. Then down the road the same point reoccurs and it's like we never discussed it before and you get the same misinformation regurgitated.

Do yourself a favor and if you really want answers, look elsewhere because you are only going to get red vs. green here. Sadly.

 

[nurturedhate]

It's the internet. Look around and you'll find your information. It's not here with the "lowest common denominator" crap being spewed out.

All you need to do is look at how many game platforms are out there. There are multiple consoles as well as multiple versions of each console. then there are multiple DX versions. For some devs they are also doing portable gaming as well. Just look at Plants vs. Zombies. Keep in mind that there are multiple versions for some platforms. Also keep in mind that this is just an example. It's not meant as "The definitive game". Because you're going to have some use the rebuttal, that game sucks and who cares about that game, etc...

Like I said, we went round and round about this in the Mantle threads. The people who were on the "Devs won't program for another platform" camp called the Devs shills etc. They just refuse to listen. It's like trying to discuss anything else on these boards. They get separated down red and green lines and go around in circles. Then down the road the same point reoccurs and it's like we never discussed it before and you get the same misinformation regurgitated.

Do yourself a favor and if you really want answers, look elsewhere because you are only going to get red vs. green here. Sadly.

But I love geeky soap operas...