Discussion [WCCFTech] What’s Up With The Missing NVIDIA DLSS Support In AMD Sponsored FSR Titles?

[H433x0n]

-Maybe you should buy an AMD GPU


They seem to be willing to play hardball while NV with its 50 Quintilluion Dollar of market cap and 90% market share in the gaming space somehow gets played.

Honestly this isn't an AMD bad story its a "How the ever loving **** did NV get played on the biggest titles of the year?"

I started this post as a joke and actually kinda got angry while typing. NV has a 1.46 TRILLION dollar market cap, AMD is 165 Billion, and they's not exclusively GPUs, its mostly CPUs. Anyone complaining here on NV's side should be embarrased that really anything in the dGPU space is AMD sponsored at all. How does NV even let that happen? Do they just take their users for granted? NV could have outbid AMD in sponsoring Starfield with the change in Jensen's couch but they chose not to. NV people should be asking... why not?

I’m not going to buy an AMD GPU out of some moral obligation. As it stands now, there’s no compelling reason to buy an AMD GPU unless you’re budget conscious, a fan of the AMD brand or don’t care about any of the associated tech (DLSS/DLAA, RT, Reflex, Frame Generation, etc).

You’re absolutely right, Nvidia will become much more aggressive sponsoring titles. That’s a fight that AMD cannot win considering Nvidia just had a quarter with more net profit than AMD had in revenue. I don’t want this to happen but it seems inevitable.

 

[DrMrLordX]

There’s enough political cover

And that's where you're wrong.

All this hand-wringing is based on analysis of some AMD-sponsored titles, cross-referenced with a list of titles that (for whatever reason) don't enable DLSS. Nobody had the "smoking gun" such as an internal memo between AMD and Bethesda Softworks saying "nyah ha haaaaaaaaa! We'll abuse our market position and sponsorship program to stop some PC gamers from using DLSS! *twists mustache*". It was all made up in the heads of people like CapFrameX. All of it.

AMD finally coming out and officially saying "we aren't stopping them from using DLSS" is not political cover of any kind.

 

[H433x0n]

And that's where you're wrong.

All this hand-wringing is based on analysis of some AMD-sponsored titles, cross-referenced with a list of titles that (for whatever reason) don't enable DLSS. Nobody had the "smoking gun" such as an internal memo between AMD and Bethesda Softworks saying "nyah ha haaaaaaaaa! We'll abuse our market position and sponsorship program to stop some PC gamers from using DLSS! *twists mustache*". It was all made up in the heads of people like CapFrameX. All of it.

AMD finally coming out and officially saying "we aren't stopping them from using DLSS" is not political cover of any kind.

There hasn’t been an AMD sponsored game that has had DLSS support outside of Sony exclusive titles. Literally, none. You chalk that up to just being a coincidence?

Games not shipping with DLSS is advantageous to AMD since it turns their biggest disadvantage into a moot point. It doesn’t matter if they can’t compete with Nvidia’s features if all of the major titles no longer support them.

 

[sandorski]

There hasn’t been an AMD sponsored game that has had DLSS support outside of Sony exclusive titles. Literally, none. You chalk that up to just being a coincidence?

Games not shipping with DLSS is advantageous to AMD since it turns their biggest disadvantage into a moot point. It doesn’t matter if they can’t compete with Nvidia’s features if all of the major titles no longer support them.

Ya, coincidence. Why not?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Keep pounding that conspiracy drum.

 

[KompuKare]

That’s quite a leap. Go through my post history, show me a single post where I’m disparaging of AMD.

It is quite obvious there’s incentives to not adopt DLSS when AMD comes on as a sponsor. I’ll happily change my tune if DLSS is available on Starfield or any other upcoming games that AMD sponsors. If you own an Nvidia GPU that comment from Frank Azor is cold comfort when Starfield still is exclusive to FSR and I’m now going to play 4 major titles this year without DLSS support (I didn’t have it available on RE4, Callisto Protocol, Jedi Survivor and now Starfield).

For the 40-50% of the market that own an RTX GPU, they’re still getting shafted.

I'm sorry but to me that just snacks of desperate entitlement.

Especially since FSR runs on all cards even GTX which Nvidia neglects.

As already pointed out Nvidia have very deep pocket - that they choose to take their RTX buyers for granted now that AI is bringing the billions is entirely down to Nvidia.

Nvidia with their proprietary nonsense are bound to lose the upscaling wars eventually UNLESS they had been willing to get the console gigs for margins far lower than they were comfortable with; AND had had a CPU at the time of the PS5 etc.; AND hadn't alienated both Microsoft and Sony with their business practices previously.

I'll phrase it differently: why did FreeSync win over GSYnc?

The answer to that is the same why DLSS isn't in every game.

Had Nvidia done what AMD and more importantly Intel did with their upscalers - namely make them run on everything - then DLSS would be in everything. The Intel example would have worked very well for them - runs on all cards but runs far better on their own.

Instead, Nvidia did their usual proprietary thing, and even if they changed course now I think it is too late.

 

[Ranulf]

There hasn’t been an AMD sponsored game that has had DLSS support outside of Sony exclusive titles. Literally, none. You chalk that up to just being a coincidence?

Games not shipping with DLSS is advantageous to AMD since it turns their biggest disadvantage into a moot point. It doesn’t matter if they can’t compete with Nvidia’s features if all of the major titles no longer support them.

Until I get proof, I'll take the path of least resistance. Namely, it is all about finances and marketing on all sides. We've seen far too many games go down this path for 20 years for one reason or another. Just insert Phys-X instead of DLSS into your sentence above.

Intel a few months ago sponsored TotalWar: Warhammer3 and gave away the game with some CPUs to promote a big patch 3.0 for the game and a new $25 DLC. The game still has bugs with e-core cpus and in general is a buggy mess 1.5 years after release. And another new $25 dlc coming out.

Its called marketing to sell hardware that they (AMD) have a lot of in a bad economy with prices dropping far more than they want. Nvidia doesn't seem to care about selling cards too much so they don't need to worry too much about incentives lately. At least they offered D4 with some cards a couple of months ago but last I saw Nvidia is offering a $30 or so Overwatch2 battle pass with cards right now.

Maybe we'll see a Cyberpunk2077 and liberty expansion deal when that hits release next month since that is a Nvidia sponsored title.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

There hasn’t been an AMD sponsored game that has had DLSS support outside of Sony exclusive titles. Literally, none. You chalk that up to just being a coincidence?

Games not shipping with DLSS is advantageous to AMD since it turns their biggest disadvantage into a moot point. It doesn’t matter if they can’t compete with Nvidia’s features if all of the major titles no longer support them.

It's not really a coincidence. Why should It be surprising, that developers don't want to spend their own money and manpower to support both DLSS and FSR If the later one albeit inferior works on both Nvidia and AMD GPU.

 

[H433x0n]

I'm sorry but to me that just snacks of desperate entitlement.

Especially since FSR runs on all cards even GTX which Nvidia neglects.

I have a feeling you'll feel desperately entitled when half of the major AAA titles no longer include any upscalers for AMD graphics cards. It's an inevitable devolution to console like exclusivity. At this point - it is what it is. I'll just have to hope that Nvidia begins aggressively bidding for game sponsorships otherwise half the features of my 4090 are rendered a moot point.

Nvidia with their proprietary nonsense are bound to lose the upscaling wars eventually

If anybody is going to "win" the upscaling wars it's going to be companies like Epic Games that provide it packaged into their engine. I'd be okay with that outcome as TSR is also superior to FSR but we're not at that point yet.

 

[AdamK47]

I'm starting to absolutely loath DLSS and FSR.

Developers are increasingly using it as a crutch for performance optimization. To cover their poor coding or inability to optimize their game for native resolutions.

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

At this point - it is what it is. I'll just have to hope that Nvidia begins aggressively bidding for game sponsorships otherwise half the features of my 4090 are rendered a moot point.

It won't matter how hard Nvidia tries since greater powers like Microsoft and Epic Games don't want to see AMD disappear since they're supplying consoles so they're now both doing everything in their power to standardize AMD technology such as GPU Work Graphs which can be used to implement UE5's Nanite renderer to give AMD the unreal engine advantage. An earthshattering change from the UE4 days where Nvidia was clearly the lead vendor with integration for things like PhysX and GameWorks just before their removal ...

AMD might end up not prevailing in temporal upscaling technology but it's going to be far harder to reverse their gains when it comes to unreal engine for the rest of the duration of current console generation ...

 

[Dribble]

It won't matter how hard Nvidia tries since greater powers like Microsoft and Epic Games don't want to see AMD disappear since they're supplying consoles so they're now both doing everything in their power to standardize AMD technology such as GPU Work Graphs which can be used to implement UE5's Nanite renderer to give AMD the unreal engine advantage. An earthshattering change from the UE4 days where Nvidia was clearly the lead vendor with integration for things like PhysX and GameWorks just before their removal ...

AMD might end up not prevailing in temporal upscaling technology but it's going to be far harder to reverse their gains when it comes to unreal engine for the rest of the duration of current console generation ...

This argument (Nvidia doomed because AMD has the consoles) has been used many many times in the past, and not come to anything really. For example gamesworks wouldn't work because all the console games would not use it, or RT or 100 other things, but they still did. When faced with this reality the standard response was Nvidia just paid off all the devs which seems somewhat unlikely, however even if that was the case Nvidia are hardly poor at the moment.

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

This argument (Nvidia doomed because AMD has the consoles) has been used many many times in the past, and not come to anything really. For example gamesworks wouldn't work because all the console games would not use it, or RT or 100 other things, but they still did. When faced with this reality the standard response was Nvidia just paid off all the devs which seems somewhat unlikely, however even if that was the case Nvidia are hardly poor at the moment.

I don't think I've necessarily argued that consoles were going to be the downfall of Nvidia or that they'll even have a downfall at all ?

Just to give you an idea of how deeply rooted AMD's advantage is in UE5, Nvidia would either have to sponsor developers to avoid using Nanite at all which would be insane given all of it's productivity benefits or make their own cross-platform console compatible game engine/aid proprietary in-house engines and hope that their renderers don't evolve the in same way like Nanite did ...

Nvidia certainly has the cash to nearly do whatever it wants aside from making other powerful corporations (Microsoft/Epic/etc.) decisions for them and their alternatives are not or the faint of heart. Unless Nvidia sees UE5 as some sort of existential threat, they're not going to try all that hard to build a replacement and will probably just let AMD have the win over there ...

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Keep pounding that conspiracy drum.

Haters gonna hate, my friend. Those oversized amygdalas are hard at work.

We know publishers pressure developers and force them to meet hardcore release dates. Which results in devs needing to push the product out ready or not. Anything expedient that reduces the time=money equation is going to win. It's why we are seeing them make upscaling a requirement for best performance. It cuts down on optimization time.

Next we extend it to why only FSR is being used. By the time the holidays are over and the new year begins; There will be approximately 100 million 9th gen consoles sold. Then we have the many 100s of millions combined total of handhelds, mini PCs, laptops/notebooks, AMD, Intel, and Nvidia dGPUs, and whatever other devices, that can all use FSR. It makes it the logical choice for targeting the maximum number of users with the minimum amount of time/effort/money spent.

DLSS only works on that much smaller subset of RTX based graphics hardware. There is almost no financial incentive to spend the money on adding support for it unless Nvidia is footing the bill. The point about it being trivial to add it is only one side of the debate. The cascading effect it can have on the development cycle is the counter argument. Which lends itself to the most salient point - time=money. Which is why it isn't added. That is the simplest explanation aka Occam's Razor. Not nearly as scandalous as AMD lying while making backroom deals to stick it to Nvidia.

 

[Tup3x]

I don't think FSR is worth using. Immortals of Aveum is fine example - FSR is unusable there in my opinion (I also consider it unusable in Jedi Suvivor). Also if random modder can hack DLSS support in game in a matter of hours I fail to see how massive company like Bethesda only has time to implement FSR.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I don't think FSR is worth using. Immortals of Aveum is fine example - FSR is unusable there in my opinion (I also consider it unusable in Jedi Suvivor). Also if random modder can hack DLSS support in game in a matter of hours I fail to see how massive company like Bethesda only has time to implement FSR.

Your estimations of AMD aren't exactly a secret around here. I could have written that for you, you are so predictable.

BTW that modder that does the hack in a "matter of hours" as you call it. Evidently values whatever amount of time it actually took. Because they charge for it. Why would a major game studio do it for free if even a modder won't?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

FSR isn't worth using? Here's a perfect example of why that is a myopic POV. U.K. Steve just did a build video and used FSR to make the 1060 viable in new games

 

[Mopetar]

FSR/DLSS is just an extreme form of life support for old hardware. I suppose that's great for anyone who can't upgrade, but most users should shun the technology.

I don't know if it was in this thread but @AdamK47 had a recent post where he pointed out that if we embrace this technology, we might see it become required as developers spend less effort on optimization since the FSR/DLSS crutch can always be used to prop up performance.

I suspect that we'll actually start seeing this with the current console generation (or perhaps the mid-cycle refresh models) where games are sold as 4K but are really using this technology to upscale from a lesser resolution, or now that AMD has their own fake frame technology, further distort performance by claiming to offer 120 FPS gaming when it's really only 60 FPS.

I look at it like dynamite. It's inventor just wanted something to help make work easier for a group of people who had a hard job. Unfortunately good intentions don't stop everyone else from finding unintended or nefarious ways of using that invention.

We've already seen the start of the disingenuous marketing with these technologies. Don't be surprised when the BS numbers are all you get and they're used to justify even higher prices.

 

[H433x0n]

DLSS only works on that much smaller subset of RTX based graphics hardware. There is almost no financial incentive to spend the money on adding support for it unless Nvidia is footing the bill. The point about it being trivial to add it is only one side of the debate. The cascading effect it can have on the development cycle is the counter argument. Which lends itself to the most salient point - time=money. Which is why it isn't added. That is the simplest explanation aka Occam's Razor. Not nearly as scandalous as AMD lying while making backroom deals to stick it to Nvidia.

There are more RTX capable cards than there are AMD cards in existence.

Haters gonna hate, my friend. Those oversized amygdalas are hard at work.

I've got my bad faith arguments ready to go when FSR support falls off of a cliff.

“There’s more RTX cards compatible with DLSS than there are AMD cards TOTAL. What’s the point wasting development resources on such a small niche?”

“They’ve got limited resources! You can’t expect them to implement a competitors technology. They've got deadlines!“

“The pleb/(retracted) version of Xess is available for Radeon cards so it’s not like they’ve got no upscaling options”.

“Nvidia’s marketing executive said they’re not blocking FSR! It’s the game studio’s fault that it's never in any of the Nvidia sponsored titles - blame them!”


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[DAPUNISHER]

FSR/DLSS is just an extreme form of life support for old hardware. I suppose that's great for anyone who can't upgrade, but most users should shun the technology.

More myopia. Not including consoles, there are millions of laptop, mini PC, and handheld users that benefit from it. Is it bad for our crowd? It is really looking that way. For all those people gaming on those devices it's value added.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

"There are more RTX capable cards than there are AMD cards in existence."

Citation needed.

 

[Saylick]

"There are more RTX capable cards than there are AMD cards in existence."

Citation needed.

No citation needed when the following is true: there are more devices that can utilize FSR than there are RTX cards, especially when one considers that RTX cards obviously can use FSR.

How many AMD graphics cards are available is entirely irrelevant when their competitor's cards can use FSR too.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

BTW I use XeSS with my ARC cards. Both need the help sometimes. Well the A380 needs help a lot. They are not old, nor on life support.

No citation needed when the following is true: there are more devices that can utilize FSR than there are RTX cards, especially when one considers that RTX cards obviously can use FSR.

I was being facetious. As stated, overly active amygdalas.

I don't support that upscaling is becoming a crutch any more than most here. That does not stop me from appreciating that it is a useful tech for many gamers. I use FSR with my 6400, 5700G, GTX 1080, and laptop GTX 1050ti when I play around with them.

 

[USER8000]

BTW I use XeSS with my ARC cards. Both need the help sometimes. Well the A380 needs help a lot. They are not old, nor on life support.

I was being facetious. As stated, overly active amygdalas.

I don't support that upscaling is becoming a crutch any more than most here. That does not stop me from appreciating that it is a useful tech for many gamers. I use FSR with my 6400, 5700G, GTX 1080, and laptop GTX 1050ti when I play around with them.

Its a crutch to sell weaker hardware for more money, Nvidia tried it with the Turing generation and now again with the Ada Lovelace generation.

 

[insertcarehere]

Your estimations of AMD aren't exactly a secret around here. I could have written that for you, you are so predictable.

BTW that modder that does the hack in a "matter of hours" as you call it. Evidently values whatever amount of time it actually took. Because they charge for it. Why would a major game studio do it for free if even a modder won't?

Starfield literally released today (heck anyone without the premium versions can't play it yet) and there's already a free mod adding DLSS/XESS integration here, so unless modders have time machines it indeed is something that can be done in a matter of hours..