WD 800JB SE or WD Raptor?

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borgmang

Senior member
Jun 27, 2003
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Originally posted by: borgmang
Originally posted by: OverVolt
I use my 80GB WD SE as my swap drive. Make defragging easier on the Raptors since the swap file doesn't keep bothering it.

Are you running a 3 drive system - Raid 0 Raptors plus WDSE 80GB as backup? If so, do you partition, and if you do, how do you have yours set-up?

Bump
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
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Originally posted by: LED
Does this mean that motherboard that come with onboard SATA controller have better performance than the PCI SATA controller?
Pretty much the same except on the Intel 865 and 875 chipsets which use native SATA for better performance.

While the native S-ATA has a higher theoretical bandwith ceiling, I have yet to see any real world benchmarks that show a native S-ATA solution outperforming a PCI based one. To my knowledge, even the fastest S-ATA drives get nowhere near saturating the PCI bus.




Also, if I were to buy a S-ATA controller, I would get a Promise based one as they usually perform a little bit better than the SI ones, although nothing you would notice in real world use.
 

LED

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
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While the native S-ATA has a higher theoretical bandwith ceiling, I have yet to see any real world benchmarks that show a native S-ATA solution outperforming a PCI based one. To my knowledge, even the fastest S-ATA drives get nowhere near saturating the PCI bus.




Also, if I were to buy a S-ATA controller, I would get a Promise based one as they usually perform a little bit better than the SI ones, although nothing you would notice in real world use.

There are reasons why and keep in mind the 1st Gen SATA is only @ 150 vs 133, only Seagate has a native SATA HD as the other still use a PATA to SATA chip conversion within, and the Software Benches are not accurate...

Some explanation can be seen/read @ Lost Circuits
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
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There are reasons why and keep in mind the 1st Gen SATA is only @ 150 vs 133, only Seagate has a native SATA HD as the other still use a PATA to SATA chip conversion within, and the Software Benches are not accurate...

AFAIK, the Maxtor DM+9 S-ATA models are full S-ATA150....
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
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Ok, maybe I'm missing something here. First off all, why was Sandra the only file system type benchmark he ran? I personally don't find Sandra's disk benchmark to be a very accurate way of measuring true HD performance.

As far as S-ATA running past the capabilities of the 32bit, 33mhz PCI bus, I see it only doing it in one bench, with two cudda's in a RAID-0 array...but it is in Sandra. He also arbitrarily, as best as I can see, makes a "factoring in the overhead" "calculation" that results in a 170mb/s burst rate. The remainder of the tests show no real performance difference of the XP, except for one or to. Most of the benchmarks weren?t even really S-ATA related...3DMark? Commanche4?.

He also states this...

For basic evaluation of drive performance, we used SiSoft Sandra File Index. HDTach and a variety of other drive benchmarks are no longer capable of accurately measuring HD performance and after spending some 2 months looking at HDD benchmarks, SiSoft Sandra turns out to be the one most reliable and accurate benchmark as long as Random R/W and Access time are discarded.

I have to disagree with that as much as I respect the Lost Circuits guys. Unless Sandra has markedly improved in a short period of time, I would be extremely surprised to find it the "most accurate" HD bench available.


Another thing...before the Winstone tests, he states that the P4 has Hyperthreading enabled.

Certainly not the favorite benchmark of the P4 but an interesting case study for the effectiveness of the SATA implementation. Hyper Threading was turned on in all benchmarks:

To make a fair comparison, wouldn't it be better to compare a S-ATA RAID setup on a AthlonXP system and a P4 system with no HT? Couldn?t the HT give an artificial boost to the I/O scores? Regardless...let's look at the scores...

In the first two benchmarks..Business Winstone 2001, the XP beats the P4 with HT and native S-ATA/RAID, and in 2002, it beats it as well...albeit by a smaller margin. In the next test...Content Creation Winstone 2002 there is almost no difference in the P4 and XP performance. Only in the CCW 2003 bench does the P4 handily beat the XP....and that seems like then norm regardless of I/O performance. This seems to be underscored by this comment..

As always, CCWS2003 is a homerun for the P4 regardless of bus speed or I/O configuration.

The remainder of the article is just gaming tests, and a ViefPerf test between the two P4 chipsets.

Anyways...my point is I think right now, and even the near future, the real world performance of a S-ATA controller on the PCI bus, and one that is native on the chipset (mapped to the HS interconnect), will generally be the same. Will it make a bigger difference down the line? Of course it will. Is it something to worry about now...no IMO.

By the time these S-ATA drives mature, and new models are out, the current chipset will all likely have native S-ATA support. The KT600 has the new 8237 SB with native S-ATA/RAID support..with even more functionality than Intel's, and the nForce boards should be seeing the MCP-S soon.


Also, how much more data can we get out of these 7200RPM drives...will we see more 10K RPM + drives? Or is the Raptor the only one.. I would imagine for these scores to get too much better, an increase in spindle speed would be most likely way to do it. However, will they release drives that outperform SCSI drives by a large margin?

As always....IMO.


 

LED

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,127
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1st off the Maxtor DM+9 S-ATA models uses the Marvel chip to provide bridging although I'm not sure about the PlusII Models as Maxtor keeps cranking them out in various versions. Personally I think the Maxtors are great drives even by using the 2 chip solution as it proves the muscle it has when the Drives implemented ATA133

I think the reason why Doc used only SiSoft as explained in the article was because the others were unreliable. I know from communique with him on the matter he keep getting different results using the same set-up and re-benching whether it was his Fujitsu's, Seagates or WD's.


I still believe that a jump from PATA133 to SATA 150 has no great performance benefits sorta like the 100 to133 PATA with a pinch more cause of the new interface....but because it isn't done in the whole Pie we will have to wait for SATA300 (native of course)...The 10K RPM Raptor are faster cause they are 10K as you stated and the SATA300 may surpass SCSI ...just 1 other Geeks Opinion as well
 

So if i have two 80 SE western digitals then if i got a raptor for system files i wouldnt see a performance increase?
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
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Thanks for the info on the Maxtor. I was actually just taking mine out of the anti-static bag and inputing some of the chip numbers in Google to see what I could find out as I read that.

I will need to dig it up, but you mention the Seagate is the only true S-ATA drive out right now, but in the reviews/articles I read, the Maxtor was the fastest 7200RPM desktop drive to date...second only to the Raptor. If so, is there little to no perfomance gain from being a true SATA drive over a hybrid P-ATA drive?...at this point in time anyway?

Thanks for the conversation...I love discussing new stuff.

 

LED

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,127
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Phocas, if the SE's are in RAID0 vs a single Raptor then no.

Insane3D...I think we will have to wait for the next Gen to actually be impressed with it all because I've seen no real benefit between the 2 (ie.true SATA drive vshybrid PATA drive)...prolly because of the infancy, newness and bandwith choking... I've even seen benches where the Maxtors in RAID even beat the Raptors...Price we pay for having Claim the Fame of showing and owning

I'm also interested in the external and hot swapping solution of SATA as it is capable of leaving USB2.0, Forewire 400 and 800 in the dust


 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: AgaBooga
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: Compddd
Would I see a difference in game performance if I got a 2nd raptor and put them in Raid 0?

no

Actually, loading times for maps wil be lower.

Unless the Files its loading are large, (100MB+) you wont notice a difference, youll lose 0.3-1.0ms seek from going raid 0, then gain roughly 35% in your load time. So the performance increase wouldnt justify the risk imho.
 

Yoshi

Golden Member
Nov 6, 1999
1,215
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0
Have both drives in my machine. Use the Raptor for OS/apps and the WD for storage and a swap partition. IMO raid for the desktop is a waste.
 
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