We at an Economic War with China.

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Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,276
8,201
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Not any more arrogant than you classifying China as having a "long history of serious instability" (and then you focused on just the Cultural Revolution; sorry, saying a period of like at most a few decades is "long history" of a civilization that stretches literally thousands of years, that's just plain stupid; heck its stupid within your own timeframe where the "peace" is as long or longer but you act like its so tenuous because of this other "long history" that shows China is prone to instability) or you trying to simplify things as "Liberals blame Russia, Conservatives blame China", so if you really wanna whine about arrogance maybe not start it?

Its not that simple (socialism can actually be fairly independent of your economic policy, as shown by democratic socialist countries that leverage free market capitalist economic policies). Even China's "free market" is near full on Soviet socialist (companies don't operate in China without government approval and often via direct funds of the government - or them paying the government to let them operate with some independence, but then Russia wasn't total die hard locked onto that especially in later years when they tried to start opening up; it was the lessons of the Soviet Union that helped China understand how to operate differently, although honestly knowing not to get locked into a stupid massively expensive and fruitless war in Afghanistan should've been somewhat obvious; likewise, don't try and get into a pissing/spending contest with the US over military), so I'm not sure if you realize you're actually explicitly supporting my point by trying to offer a counterargument because I called out your silly claim that China is somehow less socialist compared to the USSR (it isn't, I was merely trying to dismiss such claim over citing the alleged "free market" economic policies). I could've even dropped the "less socialist otherwise" but that was where I was trying to highlight that the "free market" difference between them is pretty limited (but makes all the difference).

Yeah, talk about arrogance, but hey if it bothered you so much not sure why you led with it and are now doubling down on it? Let me guess you're one of those Europeans that keeps insisting that you're not every bit as racist or messed up as the US, despite you know, you fucking clowns having the most sustained blatantly racist behavior in pretty much all of human history (that is also where that shit in the US came from)?

The thing is, everywhere on Earth experienced that instability. You might've remembered it, little things like World War I, II, the Cold War (that included a lot of actual wars, we can definitely delve into the many areas that experience similar "cultural revolutions" if you'd like)? But yep, its just China being so unstable during the Cultural Revolution!

What do you think gave rise to Mao and the Cultural Revolution? Na, you're right, I'm sure Japan waging war and committing atrocities against them had no bearing on the Chinese people and their push for isolation and controlling their own destiny (which is why someone like Mao could come in and do what he did). Likewise, the Boxer Rebellion, nah, that had no bearing on any subsequent history in China. The West raiding China for cheap labor for decades (centuries really if you see the similarities between say Chinese immigrants building the American railroads and them building iPhones/etc), nah, that didn't matter. The West deliberately getting Chinese people hooked on opium so they could fuck them over? Totally didn't matter to China (I'm sure it has nothing to do with them turning a pretty blind eye to Chinese companies exporting drugs to the west). Weird that in your mind the Cultural Revolution was a "long history of instability" that lasted shorter than most of the external stuff that happened to China around the same time (individually), and thus the external factors somehow weren't largely behind the instability China had for awhile there.

Yeah, you might wanna take your own advice (claiming I'm not aware of China's 20th century history, while you show massive ignorance about it).



Considering you literally started that post saying "I don't even know" and you waffled all over the place on that being a good or bad thing for China (seriously, did you actually read what you wrote?), no clue why you're getting pissy at me for going "no, its pretty clear, its not gonna hit China like it did the Soviet Union"? I could've gone into more detail in pointing out the massive disparity in the situations, but I didn't see the need.

Hell, I don't even know where you think I was disagreeing with your point there? Its like you just assumed I disagreed with everything you said because I called out you're really stupid claim (actually more than one but its the only one I explicitly said was really fucking stupid) elsewhere in your post. The issue is you basically just said it could go either way (and outright said you were "unsure about the whole thing") which is why I felt the need to say it clearly.

And you said China was so unstable (you're the one that wanted to call out China's history, which I was just pointing out did not really support your claim, and specifically mentioned that a lot of that recent instability was due to external factors; which apparently I gave you too much credit for realizing that maybe I wasn't meaning the Cultural Revolution was external but the external stuff just might have had something to do with later things that happened in China, like it leading to populist rising and isolationism, but fuck me I guess for not taking the clear signs of "I don't know" and outright idiocy you showed just prior to that; suddenly you trying to frame modern liberal versus conservatives as blaming everything on some group makes a lot more sense though!).

Yeah, except you literally went "both sides" the argument. This was after you said you didn't even know but acted like you still knew better than either (that you just dismissed by trying to massively seriously stupidly dumb down arguments of). FYI, your point about it simply being dismissive (as in, not validly dismissive) is only true if you weren't doing exactly what that phrasing is pointing out. But you were, hell you were actually doing what you're now complaining about me doing, as you were doing that to simply dismiss both of them. Its not often that you'll find me defending conservative idiocy, but even it is more in depth than that simplistic to the point of pointlessness comment.

But yep, I was the arrogant one, and you weren't at all! FYI, you trying to couch things by saying you don't know, yeah that doesn't give you a free pass to say stupid shit. Its right up there with "I'm not racist, but..." And that you then got mad at me for pointing out your poor assessment and declaring me ignorant for responding when you literally fucking said you don't even know, just baffling. And then you arguing against my point by simply saying I argued against your point (which I didn't even actually do; I can say the same thing you said but instead of going "durr, gee I dunno" I can just clearly say the point you offered, just deliberately saying that its quite clear actually). That we were making similar point was not lost on me (there's a reason I didn't bother going further on that or your other points because I mostly agreed even if they were much clearer than you acted like they were; that both sides are harmed by a war - whatever means its waged is pretty obvious, which is exactly something many people have been arguing). At the same time, your very poor statements were likewise not lost on me, which is why I responded to them as I did.

Beyond that, all the arrogance, yeah take a look in the mirror and realize that maybe the response has something to do with what its responding to. I'm not the arbiter of all knowledge, but if you say stupid stuff, I'm going to call it out. I'm certainly not above mistakes either (I was overly simplistic in backing up why China's "free market" - which isn't really a free market - would make them less susceptible to the harm the Soviet Union saw, but you clearly understood since as you claim we were actually in agreement except not sure how you can say that when you were saying you didn't know...).



My God that's a long post. It's also written in a style that is really tiring to follow, with the gabbled stream-of-consciousness sentences. Some paragraphs are just incomprehensible.

You just seem generically angry and looking for an argument, without having any solid stance to defend or point to make. You just don't engage in a meaningful way, even though I don't get the impression you intend to be on the 'right' and that you aren't politically on the "other team", you just have a weird style of discourse.

Yet you end up making potentially-right-wing arguments without seeming to realise they are right-wing. And then get self-righteously angry about people disagreeing with your analysis like some sectarian Trotskyist defending some agreed party-line, claiming that anyone who differs from it is an evil right-winger. Very weird.

Please stop lecturing me with bits of history that I am perfectly well aware of.

China has experienced a great deal of instability, over whatever time-frame you pick. It has had numerous dynastic and civil wars. But obviously the most important period is the most recent - the utter chaos of the Cultural revolution, which came close to a full-on civil war. I've known a few citizens of the PRC over the years, and while I can't possibly claim a handful of people represent a nation of over a billion (not least as those allowed to travel are probably considered "politically reliable" in some sense), they did tend to be of the view that stability was all-important.

As an aside, I found it interesting they all had very different politics - one being essentially a Maoist, who ruefully admitted he knew far more communists in the West than he had back home, another being a conservative nationalist who seemed to be a huge fanboy of Richard Nixon (I wonder if that's common in China or if it was just him?) and one being in-between, a patriotic soft-leftist, who, reading-between-the-lines, seemed less than happy at where China was going in economic politics.


They all, though, agreed that China wasn't the terrifying superpower of Western demonology and that the country actually had huge problems to try and manage and cope with.

The basic point is you aggressively and self-righteously insisted I should agree with the right-wing western stance that every poorer country we want to pick a fight with must be seen as a dangerous monolith that is awesomely powerful and that you had to 'stop me' when I suggested perhaps it isn't quite like that. To me that is a bit like white people claiming that black people are the ones in power.

The 'both sides' thing (that you are still pushing!) also annoys the hell out of me, because it presumes that there _are_ just two sides. In reality there are a multiplicity of 'sides', and they aren't even commensurable. There are multiple different philosophies and traditions, which don't even exist in the same 'space'.

The insistence that there are just two sides seems to be a convenient fiction for liberals who don't want to acknowledge that liberals are often on the same side as conservatives.

The (equally reductive) 'sides' I was bought up with had liberals and conservatives pretty much always on the same side, vs the left on the other. I have come to admit that isn't really true either. There are a zillion sides, that constantly realign depending on the precise historical circumstances.

But the idea that somehow ordinary Chinese workers are on a different 'side' to ordinary western workers is not something I'm going to agree to. That's Bannon's line, why are you pushing it?
 
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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
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China is going to win, 4 times the population, much bigger market. Their middle class is growing, ours is committing suicide waiting for trickle down.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
The only thing the US has that China wants is tech. And US tech is almost all immigrants and liberals whom the right hates.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Trump is clobbering China and our country is doing well because of it. No more being taken advantage of. Fair and equitable treatment in trade or no deal. Trump winning, again. Of course the party-over-America liberals are upset, though.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
Trump is clobbering China and our country is doing well because of it. No more being taken advantage of. Fair and equitable treatment in trade or no deal. Trump winning, again. Of course the party-over-America liberals are upset, though.
Yes, Americans paying more for goods via tariffs is really a winning deal for who again?
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,177
5,641
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The only thing the US has that China wants is tech. And US tech is almost all immigrants and liberals whom the right hates.

The brain drain (where intellectuals like scientists around the world left to go to the US) is starting to reverse due to the rhetoric of the Republicans. Arguably it already has, but it'll get worse with the rhetoric that Republicans have started spewing at all levels these days. And they're trying to enact that in economic policy too. Its going to be catastrophic for the US (already has been, but its gonna get worse if they get to keep doing it and we don't work to reverse that).
 
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