We have more people going into Science than what the market demands.

[Circlenaut]

I've been contemplating graduate school (PhD in Biotech mostly) but after hearing from advisors that a PhD today requires up to 7 years or more to complete and post doctoral servitude upon graduation I've changed my mind. The currently system won't be changing for a long time and actually looks to become much worse. This article has pretty much solidified my decision. The U.S. does not have a shortage of scientist, we actually have a surpluse. It's a real shame that half of all post-docs in the U.S. are foreign born and on temporary visas. WTF are we doing subsidizing the training of foreign scientists at the expense of home grown talent.

http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16191/

The following would be great, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Any change in the science labor market would, of course, require dismantling the current system and erecting something that would value young scientists for their future potential as researchers and not just for their present ability to keep universities’ grant mills humming. This would mean paying them more and exploiting them less. It would also mean limiting their numbers by both producing and importing fewer scientists, so incomes could rise to something commensurate with the investment in time and talent and the high-level skills of a Ph.D.

 

[Danube]

There's a shortage of good scientists I can tell you that much.

 

[Hacp]

TBH, most of the best scientists that brought us our technological lead were european, I think german. Perhaps if we kidnap some more german scientists, we can keep our lead

 

[Throckmorton]

TBH, most of the best scientists that brought us our technological lead were european, I think german. Perhaps if we kidnap some more german scientists, we can keep our lead

Hate to bust your bubble but most of those old Nazis are dead.

 

[Throckmorton]

No one I know with a science degree actually works in the field they studied aside from those in grad school. Meanwhile I got an easier degree in geography, and have a job as a geographer.

 

[Zebo]

Do it and learn Mandarin or Arabic while you're at it. While this country may suffer a deluge of waiter post docs this is not the case in emerging economies who are desperate for US grads/know how. "Stuff" still needs to be made don't let the fact we no longer do it stop your dreams.

 

[Tom]

waiter post docs exist because they never grew up, riding someone's coattails as long as possible.

any competent motivated person can do fine in this country. they might have to get out of their comfort zone and move.

 

[Circlenaut]

waiter post docs exist because they never grew up, riding someone's coattails as long as possible.

any competent motivated person can do fine in this country. they might have to get out of their comfort zone and move.

No they exists because companies would rather hire international PhDs and pay them 40-50k/year. They don't even contemplate American workers because companies know paying them market value would not motivate them at all. I'm not angry at the system, just facing reality and the market has spoken. Western grads simply cannot compete with international grads because the time it takes to get a PhD and land a good job (10+ years after a BS) could be better spent becoming some other professional that pays MUCH more.

 

[Tom]

anyone who goes to college for 10 years and is too stupid to figure out how to get a job should be a waiter.

edit-actually that's unfair to waiters, they should be dishwashers.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Hate to bust your bubble but most of those old Nazis are dead.

Wait so Eisenstein was NAZI?

 

[MotF Bane]

Hate to bust your bubble but most of those old Nazis are dead.

/facepalm

 

[Lemon law]

Its so sad to live in a society that rewards professional athletes much higher than we reward scientists. And now we wonder why the USA is going down the toilet?

 

[Throckmorton]

Ducati and MotF, are you guys unfamiliar with the importation of Nazi scientists we conducted?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

 

[Infohawk]

I'm not sure this is really P&N but whatevs. I saw this article on slashdot and thought it was bogus. It's just opinion with few stats or real analysis.

Career advice
Do something interests you and that will provide you with a livelihood. (Note, "A" livelihood. Not big bucks.) What interests you is also about what you naturally enjoy doing. If you're an extrovert you may not like working in a lab. If you're an introvert you may not like working in sales. If you aren't sure, try the job first! Ideally if you're thinking about academia you've done undergrad research or what not.

If you're chasing big bucks (bad idea) all you really need to do is look at supply and demand. Being a nurse can make you a lot of money for relatively little work. Some starting lawyers make 175K but they also work the equivalent of two jobs and are worse off than a nurse. I don't think just going for the money will really make you happy. There's also a lot of luck involved with hitting it big.

About science specifically, everyone complains about their own field. Everyone wants their field to be less competitive and higher paid. Most people have only worked in one field. So it doesn't surprise me some people that have been stuck in academia forever thing they have it bad. They are usually focusing on the negatives. If you want to see what the market is going to be like, look at the bureau of labor statistics. Compare scientist/researcher to other fields and you will see that scientists are not badly off comparatively.

And don't forget, IT'S CALLED WORK FOR A REASON. People are always gonna' bitch.

P&N Relevant Response
Foreign Students
I agree that publically-funded universities (read almost all universities) need to stop training foreign scientists and doctors. Maybe 5% at most should be foreign to get the best from around the world and to add spice to the learning experience. The average person who comes here to study really isn't that special though.

US Students
There should be no cap on how many diplomas are generated per field. It's a free market. The BS caps on med students is one reason medical expenses.

 

[StageLeft]

I disagree, although if you include esoteric pHDs that pay nothing you may be right.

Its so sad to live in a society that rewards professional athletes much higher than we reward scientists. And now we wonder why the USA is going down the toilet?

They are a symptom, the real underlying cause is that we value entertainment a great deal although if you run the numbers I bet you more money goes into scientists' salaries than athletes' salaries. You just don't have many top tier ones, although somebody like Gates is a scientist in many ways and has done well.

 

[PeshakJang]

Its so sad to live in a society that rewards professional athletes much higher than we reward scientists. And now we wonder why the USA is going down the toilet?

What societies in the world are not like that?

 

[Key West]

Its so sad to live in a society that rewards professional athletes much higher than we reward scientists. And now we wonder why the USA is going down the toilet?

Is this exclusive to USA? Supply vs Demand is the heart of capitalism. People love pro athletes = $$$$.

 

[Dekasa]

This is exactly the reason I dropped my plans to get anything more than a B.S. I don't care to be ultra-rich, I think it'd be a pain in the neck, and I don't feel like operating in a hyper-competitive field (which nearly all sciences are). Considering my grades, test scores, work ethic, and just general intelligence, I'm sure I'd do well, but I can get 80% of it for half the work and half the school.

Even good scientists are under-appreciated.

 

[Infohawk]

Another reason this article is highly suspect is that most science grads get their course of study paid for. The market is saying something there. Compare this with an English PhD who has to pay there way through school and will never get tenure. Also remember the baby boomer generation will eventually retire (PhDs will have money too anyway )and they're going to need replacements.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Ducati and MotF, are you guys unfamiliar with the importation of Nazi scientists we conducted?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

Are you unfamiliar with the brain drain Germany experienced prior to the US involvement in the WW2 from 1933 to 1943?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain#Antisemitism_in_pre-WWII_Europe_.281933.E2.80.931943.29


In fact it was German Jews and the German political refugee scientists who gave the US the edge it needed to catch up in the nuclear arms race to develop the first atom bomb on top of contributing to many other areas in science.

Edit: As for the importation of German scientist with NAZI ties or otherwise well both the Soviets and the Allies were both moving at a rapid pace to snatch up as many scientist as they could as the cold war loomed ahead near the end of WW2.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

There's a shortage of good scientists I can tell you that much.

There's a shortage of "good" everything. There's a shortage of the top 5% of people in all fields. However, that doesn't help someone who's contemplating the return on investment and the wisdom of pursuing education in a certain field.

Society's and the employment market's saying, "You're not one of the 'good' top 5%, so F you and be poor and unemployed or underemployed," just isn't very satisfying.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

No they exists because companies would rather hire international PhDs and pay them 40-50k/year. They don't even contemplate American workers because companies know paying them market value would not motivate them at all. I'm not angry at the system, just facing reality and the market has spoken. Western grads simply cannot compete with international grads because the time it takes to get a PhD and land a good job (10+ years after a BS) could be better spent becoming some other professional that pays MUCH more.

It's also easier to push someone around if they depend on you for the ability to remain in the United States. Employees are more docile when the prospect of losing their job means being deported back to an impoverished overpopulated third world country. Employers like subservient employees.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

anyone who goes to college for 10 years and is too stupid to figure out how to get a job should be a waiter.

edit-actually that's unfair to waiters, they should be dishwashers.

Anyone can get a job. The issue is what kind of job they can get. That's the problem--it's very difficult for people to find career-building positions in their fields today. This is not a character flaw nor even a personal failure; it's just the simple economics of supply-and-demand. Just because the economy in someone's field collapsed does not make them unworthy or stupid.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Another reason this article is highly suspect is that most science grads get their course of study paid for. The market is saying something there. Compare this with an English PhD who has to pay there way through school and will never get tenure. Also remember the baby boomer generation will eventually retire (PhDs will have money too anyway )and they're going to need replacements.

The Science PhD graduate students receive subsistence stipends because they are actually performing work as graduate students, such as working as teaching assistants and doing laboratory grunt work. Science research in the U.S. is basically a pyramid scheme. You can get a free education with a stipend to pay your living expenses, however you might not have a viable career afterwards for your investment of 9+ years of study (4 undergrad plus at least 5 for the PhD).

The talk about the Baby Boomer generation retiring is bogus. Industry apologists have been very eagerly awaiting these retirements in the sciences and a temporary improvement in the job market for two decades. At this point the amount of PhD production probably dwarfs the number of baby boomer scientists so greatly that it wouldn't make much of a difference. These fabled baby boomer retirements are also eagerly anticipated in other fields. The retirements probably won't have much of an effect. The talk of the retirements is used by education industry scammers in the hopes of acquiring more tuition dollars or more graduate student slaves.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Here's an old NPR clip from 1996 about the employment situation in science:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1011712

Here's a link to an abandoned blog about science career issues:

http://sciencejobs.blogspot.com/

Here's a link to an excellent series of essays about science career problems:

Contemporary Problems in Science Jobs