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Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
Keep a watch on IBM. They have just passed several crucial hurdles in development of the technology of interconnecting chips with light. Using light instead of electricity pushes the speeds possible into the terahertz region. Starting 2011 it will appear in servers and if they can continue to get it down in size it will make it into cpu.
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,278
126
106
Keep a watch on IBM. They have just passed several crucial hurdles in development of the technology of interconnecting chips with light. Using light instead of electricity pushes the speeds possible into the terahertz region. Starting 2011 it will appear in servers and if they can continue to get it down in size it will make it into cpu.

Isn't intel developing similar technology? (Though, IBM does have more money for R&D)
 

wirednuts

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2007
7,121
4
0
i thought intel was designing optical circuits. this is the first ive heard of someone making an optical cpu. ill take a terahertz cpu... although im still waiting for those hologram cd's that hold 500gb
 

Devilpapaya

Member
Apr 11, 2010
146
0
0
Keep a watch on IBM. They have just passed several crucial hurdles in development of the technology of interconnecting chips with light. Using light instead of electricity pushes the speeds possible into the terahertz region. Starting 2011 it will appear in servers and if they can continue to get it down in size it will make it into cpu.

Where did you get that date from? I read the articles on their nanophotonics research but I can't find anything about products this year. In fact, the articles make it seem like they are in a very early prototype stage.
 

Patterner

Senior member
Dec 20, 2010
227
0
0
As your speed increases, so does your mass as well as the energy needed to continue to accelerate. Traveling at (nearly) the speed of light will bring complications much more imperative than atomic friction.

It takes CERN a ridiculous amount of energy just to get an atom moving at such high velocities. Getting any useful amount of matter to those speeds requires so much energy that it isn't even worth asking the what-ifs.

Well, there *may* be ways around the problem a la the Alcubierre drive, though that has issues of its own.

Someone asked about the ice sheets to deflect hydrogen book...it's been awhile, but I think that was "The Light of Other Days". I think that was the same story that used the concept of Zero Point Energy to power the ships? I'll have to re-read that one.
 

Patterner

Senior member
Dec 20, 2010
227
0
0
Keep a watch on IBM. They have just passed several crucial hurdles in development of the technology of interconnecting chips with light. Using light instead of electricity pushes the speeds possible into the terahertz region. Starting 2011 it will appear in servers and if they can continue to get it down in size it will make it into cpu.

Agreed. IBM is one of the last big companies doing basic R&D, at least here in the States. Most others are taking the "R&D through acquisition" approach; which, in my not so humble opinion, limits the size of many discoveries from revolutionary to evolutionary, since many start ups can't throw around the kind of money a larger enterprise can unless *very* well funded.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
81
Huh? I would think the limit on clock speed of a cpu using current technology is limited by the speed of an electron across the width of the die. If the CPU tries running faster than that, the CPU will have issues with clock skew, where one part of the CPU is running on a different clock cycle than another part.

/I am not pm, so take this with a giant grain of salt.

Well, that's the kindest thing that anyone has said about me (months ago) that I've read today.

Actually you can solve the clock problem with either a tree or a tree-grid so that all parts of the chip see the same clock at more or less precisely the same time no matter how big it is (within reason). Imagine if you have a central clock circuit that makes the clock signal for the whole chip then you have that output go through essentially a fractal tree-like shape so that the total length of the wire is the same no matter how far or close the end point is by having the longest paths take more or less direct paths and the shorter paths take a long and winding path that takes them to their destination such that the path is the same as the longest one... it just routed around all over the place. I worked on a clock tree like that for a monster-sized chip back a couple of years ago and wrote a paper about it (http://ewh.ieee.org/r5/denver/sscs/Presentations/2005.03.Mahoney.pdf)

The other way to do it is to have the main clock driver circuit drive a tree of wires to another second set of secondary clock drivers which then drive a clock grid - which is like a screen door of squares of wires all tied together. This approach uses more power and takes up more metal, but it requires a lot less engineering work to do. But the result is the same - that more or less the clock arrives everywhere at the same time because of the tree-effect of the in the intermediate clock driver stage, such that the farthest and shortest paths all use the same effective length of wire.

Computational architectures stopped making significant evolutions about 20 years ago. Currently progress in this field is being driven almost entirely by consumer demands and product life cycle expectations; aka Intel's decision to hold off processor revisions based on profit cycles. It's not driven by science.

I disagree with pretty much all of the statements in this. First off, there have been lots of evolutionary changes in computational architectures in the last 20 years. OOE, uops, trace caches spring immediately to mind, and ones that don't achieve substantial market traction like Itanium had substantial changes to computing architecture. You can say that Itanium is "just VLIW" but that really doesn't encompass any of the real changes that were made to actually implement the design - like predication, the RSE and other changes. So, the idea that computer architecture has stagnated for 20 years seems ludicrous to me - how are CPU's improving IPC if there are no evolutionary improvements?

Second, I work for Intel and I have never seen the company say "well, we have this great design, but we aren't going to release it because if we don't sell it, we can make more money". That's like one of those internet conspiracies that don't even make sense - I see people say it but it never made any sense to me. If you have a CPU that is faster and better than everyone else, then you release it the second you can because people - and especially data centers - are willing to pay for performance and every day you wait is just lost opportunity cost while you wait for your competition to catch up with you and drive your pricing down. If you have a better design, it will only lose value over time. I know this personally from having VP's lecture me personally about this when we slip schedule on anything that I'm involved with.

And lastly, the idea that computer design isn't driven by science...? It's all about science. Everything in it is all about science, materials science, mathematics, chemistry and then electrical engineering and computer engineering and nowadays social sciences as well. I use the scientific method almost every day at work - I come up with hypotheses, design experiments, collect results, analyze the results, draw conclusions and then - with unfortunate regularity - undergo an aggressive form of peer review. My life revolves around science... sometimes too much - tonight my wife informed me that the scientific method is not suitable for determining our next kitchen table.

Patrick Mahoney
Enterprise Processor Division
Intel Corp.

* Not speaking as a spokesperson for Intel Corp. My opinions are my own. *
 
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May 11, 2008
20,068
1,293
126
Well, that's the kindest thing that anyone has said about me (months ago) that I've read today.

Actually you.....


..... with.

And lastly, the idea that there's no science in computer design...? It's all about science. Everything in it is all about science, materials science, mathematics, chemistry and then electrical engineering and computer engineering and nowadays social sciences as well. I use the scientific method almost every day at work - I come up with hypotheses, design experiments, collect results, analyze the results, draw conclusions and then - with unfortunate regularity - undergo an aggressive form of peer review. My life revolves around science... sometimes too much - tonight my wife informed me that the scientific method is not suitable for determining our next kitchen table.

Patrick Mahoney
Enterprise Processor Division
Intel Corp.

* Not speaking as a spokesperson for Intel Corp. My opinions are my own. *

I could almost visualize you two...

:thumbsup::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 

Mono44

Junior Member
Jun 4, 2010
16
0
0
Talking about ideology is nonsense, there are tonnes of examples where the free market fails in everyday life. You can design the perfect system and human beings will find a way to screw it up.

The real issue is americans are very brainwashed against government and have free market ideology rammed down their throats since the day they were born. No one can ever have a rational conversation dealing with ideology and people who are overly emotionally invested in their theory of how the world is(tm). Objectively speaking american healthcare is crap but you'll hear free market types spew a bunch of nonsense at every turn. No system is ever perfect.

Human minds are not that great at reasoning, period. Hence science.
 

PsiStar

Golden Member
Dec 21, 2005
1,184
0
76
"Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal"
So said noted science fiction author Robert A. Heinlein.
 

Rumpltzer

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2003
4,815
33
91
If we're talking strictly in terms of integrated circuit performance, I think that the original point of this thread was not completely inaccurate; it was simply overstated and poor assumptions were made based on what is/was not known.

To state that we're hitting a speedbump with CMOS IC performance due to materials restrictions is not inaccurate. Intel has not hidden their intention to integrate compound semiconductor materials into the FET channel; it's not like they're the only ones who are working on it. So this is just the latest hurdle that CMOS has decided to take on; and for good reason.

Integrating (non-SiGe) CS into a CMOS channel is not a trivial undertaking, and I wouldn't be surprised if no one is able to work it out (in a commercial scale) for the 2015 release date. I'm fairly certain that it'll work, though, and it'll then be on to the next hurdle.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
81
She was opting for Feng Shui instead?

Not exactly - but my statement about the scientific method wasn't accurate either. I filled out a spreadsheet with the options for kitchen tables, materials, location, cost, taxes, seating, etc. based on research from Google and hunting around and I showed it to her and she seemed more exasperated than appreciative. She said this weekend, we'll drive and look.
 

Evadman

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Feb 18, 2001
30,990
5
81
My life revolves around science... sometimes too much - tonight my wife informed me that the scientific method is not suitable for determining our next kitchen table.
This is why I love you
 

Soccerman06

Diamond Member
Jul 29, 2004
5,830
5
81
Not exactly - but my statement about the scientific method wasn't accurate either. I filled out a spreadsheet with the options for kitchen tables, materials, location, cost, taxes, seating, etc. based on research from Google and hunting around and I showed it to her and she seemed more exasperated than appreciative. She said this weekend, we'll drive and look.

/facedesk
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
1
91
pm, you should reverse your name.

MissedPoint fits a bit better.

Basically, what you should have done is rip down the options to something simple, given the options based on price, craftsmanship and whether YOU like them or not and leave it at that.

And you write this out by hand or type it up, don't use a spreadsheet for presentation of an object that she wants to look for based on "like" and "dislike".
 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,039
0
76
Not exactly - but my statement about the scientific method wasn't accurate either. I filled out a spreadsheet with the options for kitchen tables, materials, location, cost, taxes, seating, etc. based on research from Google and hunting around and I showed it to her and she seemed more exasperated than appreciative. She said this weekend, we'll drive and look.
I would be too. Unless you want your kitchen to look like a lab, I'd suggest listening to the wife.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Chips are the least of our worries. It's our shitty 50+ year old storage devices that bog down our technology. Chips get faster and faster, data and media rich applications and services exploding out of control where a simple movie or application isn't less than 1 GB now.

What the fuck good is a 32 core CPU that can process 1000 GB/s when you're loading a 1 GB application from a piece of shit hard drive that can only do 80 MB/sec, and 20 MB/sec should it be fragmented the slightest.

I hate hard drives with a passion, and SSDs are only a stop gap solution and aren't much better and die quickly with any serious use. Seriously tired of launching apps, transfering large amounts of data, processing HD video, etc, with top of the line hardware... CRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR 16 minutes remaining CRRRRRRRR RKRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
14 minutes remaining CRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

WTB a couple gigs of 0 wait state non volatile magnetic core memory.

Because seriously screw hard drives. You have to run 4 Cheetahs or Raptors or SSDs in RAID0 to even come close to a modern PC being useable.

Hey computer is running slow again can you look, oh hey look huge surprise the HDD light is SOLID ON! AND I CANT MOVE! #$&#37;^#@#$%@

Thats how I feel about the current state of our technology. :awe:
 
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Weenoman

Member
Dec 5, 2010
60
0
0
Chips are the least of our worries. It's our shitty 50+ year old storage devices that bog down our technology. Chips get faster and faster, data and media rich applications and services exploding out of control where a simple movie or application isn't less than 1 GB now.

What the fuck good is a 32 core CPU that can process 1000 GB/s when you're loading a 1 GB application from a piece of shit hard drive that can only do 80 MB/sec, and 20 MB/sec should it be fragmented the slightest.

I hate hard drives with a passion, and SSDs are only a stop gap solution and aren't much better and die quickly with any serious use. Seriously tired of launching apps, transfering large amounts of data, processing HD video, etc, with top of the line hardware... CRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR 16 minutes remaining CRRRRRRRR RKRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
14 minutes remaining CRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

WTB a couple gigs of 0 wait state non volatile magnetic core memory.

Because seriously screw hard drives. You have to run 4 Cheetahs or Raptors or SSDs in RAID0 to even come close to a modern PC being useable.

Hey computer is running slow again can you look, oh hey look huge surprise the HDD light is SOLID ON! AND I CANT MOVE! #$%^#@#$%@

Thats how I feel about the current state of our technology. :awe:


I feel this way. Fortunately SSD's help.
 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,039
0
76
Chips are the least of our worries. It's our shitty 50+ year old storage devices that bog down our technology. Chips get faster and faster, data and media rich applications and services exploding out of control where a simple movie or application isn't less than 1 GB now.

What the fuck good is a 32 core CPU that can process 1000 GB/s when you're loading a 1 GB application from a piece of shit hard drive that can only do 80 MB/sec, and 20 MB/sec should it be fragmented the slightest.

I hate hard drives with a passion, and SSDs are only a stop gap solution and aren't much better and die quickly with any serious use. Seriously tired of launching apps, transfering large amounts of data, processing HD video, etc, with top of the line hardware... CRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR 16 minutes remaining CRRRRRRRR RKRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
14 minutes remaining CRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

WTB a couple gigs of 0 wait state non volatile magnetic core memory.

Because seriously screw hard drives. You have to run 4 Cheetahs or Raptors or SSDs in RAID0 to even come close to a modern PC being useable.

Hey computer is running slow again can you look, oh hey look huge surprise the HDD light is SOLID ON! AND I CANT MOVE! #$&#37;^#@#$%@

Thats how I feel about the current state of our technology.
It's called a SOLID STATE DRIVE. Look them up. They've only been around for a few decades.
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
1
91
Mr. P,

We are spoiled.

If you have been doing this for more than 10 years you will know what I am getting at. We always seem to reach a roadblock into what is obtainable, but I am not sure that that is always the case.

We always seek to find things that will use the latest technology to its maximum.

Remember when MP3's started? It was amazing to get 1MB!!!!! OMG "Feels like making love" sounds JUST LIKE THE SONG ON THE RADIO and it is coming from your COMPUTER??!?!?

Hell, I remember pictures being taken and stored on my 256meg CF!!!!

But once the cards went 1GB, 16GB, 64GB, the RAW image size also followed suit.

As for movies going past a gig... there is a limit to all of that, and the industry knows this as well. Why do you think there has been such a push for 3D?

I think even that will start waning in 5-7 years. The only other step would be better virtual staging. Ambient sound and some other senses to make you feel like you are watching a live game or show rather than sitting on your couch...


But the technology needed to do THAT still has not been invented....


I too, am annoyed when my machine takes 2 minutes to boot with all the crap that starts up, but at the same time, it is sure a hell of a lot better than taking 30 seconds to simply get through the mem test and start up the Bios before it accessed the boot disk!
 

Devilpapaya

Member
Apr 11, 2010
146
0
0
WTB a couple gigs of 0 wait state non volatile magnetic core memory.

Hell yea! Think of all the time the low access time would save us when combined with the extreme heat sensitivity, low bandwidth, high power and large physical size!
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Hell yea! Think of all the time the low access time would save us when combined with the extreme heat sensitivity, low bandwidth, high power and large physical size!

If it means I don't need a HDD, RAM, and cache and can access several gigs of data in random order and execute programs "in place" as fast as the 8 core 4 GH CPU can process it and no longer need to "load" or "install" anything, and never have to see "please wait" and "12 minutes remaining" coupled with a HDD light brighter than the sun, I dont care if its the size of my house.

Im so tired of hard drives; SSDs aren't much better, it still takes several minutes when installing or moving gigs of data.

We need a real breakthrough in storage to really see our technology REALLY go to the next level.

Since Star Trek had been mentioned when was the last time time you saw them standing around with spinning icons and hourglasses when shuffling around terabytes and terabytes of data? Our storage technology is decades behind our ability to consume and process data. I don't care about flash based ssd either, still measured in MEGAbytes per second when our cpus and buses can consume hundreds of GIGAbytes per second.

I want 1:1 coupling between cpu and non volatile storage to be impressed.
 
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