We need higher gas taxes?

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: boomerang
Anyone with a vehicle that gets over 30 miles to a gallon should have to pay an annual surcharge of $1500 to $2000. They're using less gas and aren't contributing their fair share to the maintenance of our highway system.

Why penalize everyone for the mis-deeds of the greenies? If you want fuel efficiency, you've gotta pay.

(not sure if my sarcasm meter is working or not ...)

Design engineering of Federal and State highways is dang good. When built to spec those roads will last a very long time with minimal maintenance.

The issues with road maintenance are primarily one of axle weight. You are going to love this one - LOL

'Pavement-wearing effect' increases exponentially with axle weight. This is a given. If you want to have fun (heh heh) with a civil engineer try to engage them in a debate as to pavement thickness and pavement wear as a factor of the third-power or forth power.

Boy. I'm gonna piece some folks off with this one ...

Let's say that Tom the Trucker has a rig with an 18,000-pound axle weight. Tom could drive up the highway one million times before the pavement failed. His wife, Tonya Trucker, has a rig with a 9,000-pound axle weight. Tonya could drive up the highway sixteen million times before the pavement failed.

So. Each time you double axle weight pavement wear increases to the forth power (some models use the third power depending upon road design standards).

Gary the Green Geek in his smart car with his 1,125-pound axle weight (to make it simple) could drive up the highway sixty-six billion times before the pavement failed.


Meanwhile, back at the OP's thread ...

Last fiscal year IIRC there was an $8-$10 billion deficit in the Federal Highway Trust Fund because of gas tax short-falls from reduced consumption. The projected deficit for this fiscal year is much higher.

Less Revenue = Deferred Maintenance & Less New Construction
(on the state and local level, too)

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: Atreus21
It's never a good idea to artificially raise prices.

It is if the current tax isn't enough to cover the cost of maintaining our roads. We have one of the lowest gas taxes in the world. Raising it a little isn't going to impact us much if at all.

Nope. Plus they benefit everyone in terms of more efficient transportation systems and they help produce construction jobs.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
-anip-
Gas taxes are not part of the general fund and are only used for transportation purposes in EVERY state. That is why when you have a state budget crisis, the transportation department is least effected because they don't use the general fund to pay their employees or fix the roads.

Not here in NC. They use the gas taxes for general fund purposes.

Unless and until all gas taxes are strictly used for their stated purpose (roads etc) I'm against raising them.

Fern

That is your screwed up states problem and should have nothing to do with the discussion about the federal gas tax.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
-anip-
Gas taxes are not part of the general fund and are only used for transportation purposes in EVERY state. That is why when you have a state budget crisis, the transportation department is least effected because they don't use the general fund to pay their employees or fix the roads.

Not here in NC. They use the gas taxes for general fund purposes.

Unless and until all gas taxes are strictly used for their stated purpose (roads etc) I'm against raising them.

Fern

First in Pavement - Last in Education :shocked:

What you say is essentially true but must be qualified ...

The NC highway fund transfer

"And this is a debate, and you hear it being mentioned now, and let me try to set the record straight. A couple of years ago, there was a new highway fund established that in part was going to be funded by a special sales tax on vehicles.

Now up until that time, vehicle sales had been subject to the regular sales tax, and those sales taxes generated from people buying vehicles were sent to the what's called the general fund, which is the money that the legislature spends on everything outside of highways. Now, when the legislature established this special highway fund, and they said, 'Ok, in the future, now this special sales tax on vehicles, those moneys are going to go into this new highway fund.' the general fund was left lacking. In other words, it had been receiving money from sales of vehicles, and now it wasn't.

And so what the general assembly did to make sure that the general fund was not disadvantaged, they said, 'Ok, we're going to figure out how much this new highway fund and this new sales tax on vehicles - where the money goes to the highway fund - how much money is the general fund losing as a consequence of that, and we're going to make this transfer from the new highway fund to the general fund.' So the transfer was simply to pay for the losses to the general fund caused by this new special sales tax on vehicles."

 

[JSt0rm]

i think right now would be a bad time to raise any taxes. We are in too much of a cluster fuck and need to spend our way out of it.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
There is no way to guarantee it will be spent on roads and stuff, so don't do it. Its just going to be wasted by Obama and this democrat congress of thieves and criminals.

Gas taxes are not part of the general fund and are only used for transportation purposes in EVERY state. That is why when you have a state budget crisis, the transportation department is least effected because they don't use the general fund to pay their employees or fix the roads.

If only that were true. My state robs the transportation department to try and fill the blackhole of education funding and then lets the roads fall from poor to impassable status.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
i think right now would be a bad time to raise any taxes. We are in too much of a cluster fuck and need to spend our way out of it.

States are looking to raise taxes because they have to bridge budget deficits. Gas taxes would be a much better way to go than say sales taxes, since they are offset by a large drop in oil prices, and also they encourage efficiency, which reduces the overall drag on our economy from fuel inefficiency. Short term drop in gas prices will encourage consumers to buy less efficient vehicles, which will provide a long term drag on their budgets and our economy. Also one way to get consumers to spend is to encourage them to trade in their inefficient vehicles for more fuel saving ones.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: boomerang
Anyone with a vehicle that gets over 30 miles to a gallon should have to pay an annual surcharge of $1500 to $2000. They're using less gas and aren't contributing their fair share to the maintenance of our highway system.

Why penalize everyone for the mis-deeds of the greenies? If you want fuel efficiency, you've gotta pay.

(not sure if my sarcasm meter is working or not ...)

Design engineering of Federal and State highways is dang good. When built to spec those roads will last a very long time with minimal maintenance.

The issues with road maintenance are primarily one of axle weight. You are going to love this one - LOL

'Pavement-wearing effect' increases exponentially with axle weight. This is a given. If you want to have fun (heh heh) with a civil engineer try to engage them in a debate as to pavement thickness and pavement wear as a factor of the third-power or forth power.

Boy. I'm gonna piece some folks off with this one ...

Let's say that Tom the Trucker has a rig with an 18,000-pound axle weight. Tom could drive up the highway one million times before the pavement failed. His wife, Tonya Trucker, has a rig with a 9,000-pound axle weight. Tonya could drive up the highway sixteen million times before the pavement failed.

So. Each time you double axle weight pavement wear increases to the forth power (some models use the third power depending upon road design standards).

Gary the Green Geek in his smart car with his 1,125-pound axle weight (to make it simple) could drive up the highway sixty-six billion times before the pavement failed.

Yeah, the gas tax pretty fairly charges people for the amount of use and damage they do to the roads as is. It also pretty much automatically does this, without a complicated GPS tracking system and a bunch of salary money spent on enforcement. I suppose you can't blame the rest of the assholes for wanting everyone else to share the cost of their gas sucking vehicles, but the fact is the road damage is pretty much being paid for by those who do it the most with a gas tax.

The "fair share" arguement is rather amusing here. There is already a registration fee (tax) for each year. I'm not sure why grandma who drives her car to local grocery store once a week should be slammed with with $1500/yr just for owning a good gas mileage car that sits in her driveway most of the time. I'm tempted to say that the only person who would think this was a good idea would be the guy driving lots of miles in his tahoe and raging about paying more gasoline taxes on top of a higher fuel bill.

I suppose one could argue that more cars equal more traffic regardless of mileage. But that is still a function of miles driven, not of how efficient the car is, so it makes no sense to arbitrarily tax only efficient cars...especially since that would be counter to many government policies going in the other direction.

Mileage based taxing systems have been suggested to grab the pathetic tax loss from the handful of hybrid cars on the road. They all have sounded extremely convoluted to me, likely requiring more costs to implement and administer then they would ever bring in for revenues.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
i think right now would be a bad time to raise any taxes. We are in too much of a cluster fuck and need to spend our way out of it.

States are looking to raise taxes because they have to bridge budget deficits. Gas taxes would be a much better way to go than say sales taxes, since they are offset by a large drop in oil prices, and also they encourage efficiency, which reduces the overall drag on our economy from fuel inefficiency. Short term drop in gas prices will encourage consumers to buy less efficient vehicles, which will provide a long term drag on their budgets and our economy. Also one way to get consumers to spend is to encourage them to trade in their inefficient vehicles for more fuel saving ones.

I partially agree. I think the gas tax should only be used for transportation funding (which do to incompetence and political horse shit, isn't) and that the logical response to the inflation of costs of highway upkeep is simply to raise the gas tax, or better yet...peg it to inflation in the first place. And, given the massive drop in prices recently, it'd be more tolerable and probably less noticeable now then if it were done last summer.

They really need to stop robbing the fund though and then throwing up their hands when the roads fall apart and saying "WTF happened!?".

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
i think right now would be a bad time to raise any taxes. We are in too much of a cluster fuck and need to spend our way out of it.

States are looking to raise taxes because they have to bridge budget deficits. Gas taxes would be a much better way to go than say sales taxes, since they are offset by a large drop in oil prices, and also they encourage efficiency, which reduces the overall drag on our economy from fuel inefficiency. Short term drop in gas prices will encourage consumers to buy less efficient vehicles, which will provide a long term drag on their budgets and our economy. Also one way to get consumers to spend is to encourage them to trade in their inefficient vehicles for more fuel saving ones.

I partially agree. I think the gas tax should only be used for transportation funding (which do to incompetence and political horse shit, isn't) and that the logical response to the inflation of costs of highway upkeep is simply to raise the gas tax, or better yet...peg it to inflation in the first place. And, given the massive drop in prices recently, it'd be more tolerable and probably less noticeable now then if it were done last summer.

They really need to stop robbing the fund though and then throwing up their hands when the roads fall apart and saying "WTF happened!?".

I think they should just drop the charade of saying it's only for highway spending, and just make it part of general revenue.

 

[PokerGuy]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
We need better government before we need higher taxes.

Finally, a voice of reason. No, no, no, a million times no to any idea of raising taxes unless the government first reduces it's wasteful spending significantly. Always looking to increase revenue without cutting spending is stupid.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Maybe we could have an abortion tax.. Maybe $100 per fetus? Maybe a tax on money you take in bribes for senate seats?

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
We need better government before we need higher taxes.

Finally, a voice of reason. No, no, no, a million times no to any idea of raising taxes unless the government first reduces it's wasteful spending significantly. Always looking to increase revenue without cutting spending is stupid.

One man's waste is another man's treasure. Anyways, a recession is not the time to be cutting government spending.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: boomerang
Anyone with a vehicle that gets over 30 miles to a gallon should have to pay an annual surcharge of $1500 to $2000. They're using less gas and aren't contributing their fair share to the maintenance of our highway system.

Why penalize everyone for the mis-deeds of the greenies? If you want fuel efficiency, you've gotta pay.

(not sure if my sarcasm meter is working or not ...)

Design engineering of Federal and State highways is dang good. When built to spec those roads will last a very long time with minimal maintenance.

The issues with road maintenance are primarily one of axle weight. You are going to love this one - LOL

'Pavement-wearing effect' increases exponentially with axle weight. This is a given. If you want to have fun (heh heh) with a civil engineer try to engage them in a debate as to pavement thickness and pavement wear as a factor of the third-power or forth power.

Boy. I'm gonna piece some folks off with this one ...

Let's say that Tom the Trucker has a rig with an 18,000-pound axle weight. Tom could drive up the highway one million times before the pavement failed. His wife, Tonya Trucker, has a rig with a 9,000-pound axle weight. Tonya could drive up the highway sixteen million times before the pavement failed.

So. Each time you double axle weight pavement wear increases to the forth power (some models use the third power depending upon road design standards).

Gary the Green Geek in his smart car with his 1,125-pound axle weight (to make it simple) could drive up the highway sixty-six billion times before the pavement failed.


Meanwhile, back at the OP's thread ...

Last fiscal year IIRC there was an $8-$10 billion deficit in the Federal Highway Trust Fund because of gas tax short-falls from reduced consumption. The projected deficit for this fiscal year is much higher.

Less Revenue = Deferred Maintenance & Less New Construction
(on the state and local level, too)

You picked up on the nature of my post. My point is that all this discussion of gas taxes is worthless. By Federal mandate and the resultant choices by consumers (whether by choice or economic necessity) gasoline consumption is going to decline.

We'll eventually reach a point where it is no longer viable to maintain our roads by a gas tax. Maybe we're there right now? Another way must be found to fund roads. Forget the stop-gap measures and make the change now. Raising gas taxes is not the answer.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: boomerang
Anyone with a vehicle that gets over 30 miles to a gallon should have to pay an annual surcharge of $1500 to $2000. They're using less gas and aren't contributing their fair share to the maintenance of our highway system.

Why penalize everyone for the mis-deeds of the greenies? If you want fuel efficiency, you've gotta pay.

(not sure if my sarcasm meter is working or not ...)

Design engineering of Federal and State highways is dang good. When built to spec those roads will last a very long time with minimal maintenance.

The issues with road maintenance are primarily one of axle weight. You are going to love this one - LOL

'Pavement-wearing effect' increases exponentially with axle weight. This is a given. If you want to have fun (heh heh) with a civil engineer try to engage them in a debate as to pavement thickness and pavement wear as a factor of the third-power or forth power.

Boy. I'm gonna piece some folks off with this one ...

Let's say that Tom the Trucker has a rig with an 18,000-pound axle weight. Tom could drive up the highway one million times before the pavement failed. His wife, Tonya Trucker, has a rig with a 9,000-pound axle weight. Tonya could drive up the highway sixteen million times before the pavement failed.

So. Each time you double axle weight pavement wear increases to the forth power (some models use the third power depending upon road design standards).

Gary the Green Geek in his smart car with his 1,125-pound axle weight (to make it simple) could drive up the highway sixty-six billion times before the pavement failed.


Meanwhile, back at the OP's thread ...

Last fiscal year IIRC there was an $8-$10 billion deficit in the Federal Highway Trust Fund because of gas tax short-falls from reduced consumption. The projected deficit for this fiscal year is much higher.

Less Revenue = Deferred Maintenance & Less New Construction
(on the state and local level, too)

You picked up on the nature of my post. My point is that all this discussion of gas taxes is worthless. By Federal mandate and the resultant choices by consumers (whether by choice or economic necessity) gasoline consumption is going to decline.

We'll eventually reach a point where it is no longer viable to maintain our roads by a gas tax. Maybe we're there right now? Another way must be found to fund roads. Forget the stop-gap measures and make the change now. Raising gas taxes is not the answer.

What the hell have you been smoking. The gas tax works just fine to fund the road it just hasn't been raised in the last 15 years of course it needs a "stop gap" measure ever 15 years or you could just index to either inflation or the price of gas.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
We need better government before we need higher taxes.

Finally, a voice of reason. No, no, no, a million times no to any idea of raising taxes unless the government first reduces it's wasteful spending significantly. Always looking to increase revenue without cutting spending is stupid.

Its called inflation. You can't survive on .18 gallon forever.

On a side note, ever seen the transportation system in Japan? WOW. I'd gladly pay $1 gallon if we could do that here.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: boomerang
Anyone with a vehicle that gets over 30 miles to a gallon should have to pay an annual surcharge of $1500 to $2000. They're using less gas and aren't contributing their fair share to the maintenance of our highway system.

Why penalize everyone for the mis-deeds of the greenies? If you want fuel efficiency, you've gotta pay.

(not sure if my sarcasm meter is working or not ...)

Design engineering of Federal and State highways is dang good. When built to spec those roads will last a very long time with minimal maintenance.

The issues with road maintenance are primarily one of axle weight. You are going to love this one - LOL

'Pavement-wearing effect' increases exponentially with axle weight. This is a given. If you want to have fun (heh heh) with a civil engineer try to engage them in a debate as to pavement thickness and pavement wear as a factor of the third-power or forth power.

Boy. I'm gonna piece some folks off with this one ...

Let's say that Tom the Trucker has a rig with an 18,000-pound axle weight. Tom could drive up the highway one million times before the pavement failed. His wife, Tonya Trucker, has a rig with a 9,000-pound axle weight. Tonya could drive up the highway sixteen million times before the pavement failed.

So. Each time you double axle weight pavement wear increases to the forth power (some models use the third power depending upon road design standards).

Gary the Green Geek in his smart car with his 1,125-pound axle weight (to make it simple) could drive up the highway sixty-six billion times before the pavement failed.


Meanwhile, back at the OP's thread ...

Last fiscal year IIRC there was an $8-$10 billion deficit in the Federal Highway Trust Fund because of gas tax short-falls from reduced consumption. The projected deficit for this fiscal year is much higher.

Less Revenue = Deferred Maintenance & Less New Construction
(on the state and local level, too)

You picked up on the nature of my post. My point is that all this discussion of gas taxes is worthless. By Federal mandate and the resultant choices by consumers (whether by choice or economic necessity) gasoline consumption is going to decline.

We'll eventually reach a point where it is no longer viable to maintain our roads by a gas tax. Maybe we're there right now? Another way must be found to fund roads. Forget the stop-gap measures and make the change now. Raising gas taxes is not the answer.

What the hell have you been smoking. The gas tax works just fine to fund the road it just hasn't been raised in the last 15 years of course it needs a "stop gap" measure ever 15 years or you could just index to either inflation or the price of gas.

I'm sorry if my post makes you have to think too hard.

 

[babylon5]

America has been spoiled by having the cheapest gasoline price in the world.

 

[dmcowen674]

An at least $5 gallon tax would solve the energy problem in the U.S.

Nearly $5 gallon gas has brought the country and the world to it's knees.

Neccessity is the Mother of invention and some thing old are new again.

Can't afford gas, people will find another way, horse and buggy will be back.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
An at least $5 gallon tax would solve the energy problem in the U.S.

Nearly $5 gallon gas has brought the country and the world to it's knees.

Neccessity is the Mother of invention and some thing old are new again.

Can't afford gas, people will find another way, horse and buggy will be back.

Got a date? Or should we use the one you predicted two years ago that has come and gone?

What we need is less taxes and more accountability.

 

[kyle xy]

Originally posted by: senseamp
We need higher gas taxes even if it's not spent on roads.

Tell you what...since you are such a big fan of higher taxes why don't you just send a check directly to the IRS that way the rest of us don't have to suffer.

I will even send you a Thank you card.

As my Dad once taught me: "It's not about how much you make; it's about how much you spend." The last thing the government needs is more money. Let's teach them how to manage it before giving them more to squander...this applies to both parties!

 

[kyle xy]

^^

blackangst1 wins for my new fav signature. Bravo...and boo for "spreading the wealth"

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: LS8

Originally posted by: senseamp
We need higher gas taxes even if it's not spent on roads.

Why?

Because the societal costs of gas aren't fully reflected by the sale price. That cost doesn't include the environmental impact, foreign policy impact of funding terror-friendly regimes, or economic impact of our economy being so tied to something as volatile as the price of oil and gas.

Thus, gas is over-consumed and over-produced beyond where it really should be...

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: kyle xy

Originally posted by: senseamp
We need higher gas taxes even if it's not spent on roads.

Tell you what...since you are such a big fan of higher taxes why don't you just send a check directly to the IRS that way the rest of us don't have to suffer.

I will even send you a Thank you card.

As my Dad once taught me: "It's not about how much you make; it's about how much you spend." The last thing the government needs is more money. Let's teach them how to manage it before giving them more to squander...this applies to both parties!

Ah yes the completely irrationally starve the beast idea. Hasn't the last 8 years proved that doesn't work?

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: kyle xy

Originally posted by: senseamp
We need higher gas taxes even if it's not spent on roads.

Tell you what...since you are such a big fan of higher taxes why don't you just send a check directly to the IRS that way the rest of us don't have to suffer.

I will even send you a Thank you card.

As my Dad once taught me: "It's not about how much you make; it's about how much you spend." The last thing the government needs is more money. Let's teach them how to manage it before giving them more to squander...this applies to both parties!

An apple does not fall far from the tree.