We need Universal Healthcare.

[bobdelt]

If you want insurance.... get a job with benifits....

Most companies break deals with insurance so that all their employees have health care, regardless of past illnesses (Like my brother who had cancer, and had no problem getting new health insurance). I think a lot of you are confusing Life insurance with Health Insurance.

Its not hard to get insurance. Most people dont have it because they dont want to pay for it. Thats their choice. They cant put down the sushi and fancy cars and pay for insurance instead, but thats a decision they make.

If youre in a job where you cant afford insurance, go to school, get a loan from the gov't, you get health insurance in college, and when you graduate you'll get a job w\ benifits. It's amazing how this system works when you get off your ass and earn it yourself.

 

[Wheezer]

What you want is for someone to be able to walk into a hospital and say "treat me" or "cure me" and when the bill comes due it gets sent to your uncle sam.

That is not universal healthcare.

That is passing the buck.

If a poor smoker gets lung cancer, someone who brought the disease onto him or herself why should the taxpayers pick up the bill?
If a person who has no job wraps thier car around a tree while drinking and driving why should it be up to us to help them walk again?
If a person who has no job is high on drugs and OD's why should we pay for thier recovery?


#1 EVERYONE no matter which side of the fence you are on can agree on one thing, the goverment is inept when it comes to handling just about everything from money to the existing healthcare they provide the elderly, you want to trust them with YOUR medical bills and have them tell youwhat treatment you can and cannot get?

# 2 We can all agree there are those unscupulus people who will take advantage of it much like the welfare system.

#3 There are programs already in place for people. I personally know 3 people I worked with that made decent money. $12-15/hr. they all had one thing in common, they were eligible for insurance through work but declined. why? Because it would have cost them money and all 3 had enough children to qualify for health care coverage through the state.

they got
-healthcare
-Presciption drug benefits
-Welfare money for food/medicine
-All thier federal tax money back
-Thier wives got assistance for school
-Free child care

All through the state and using my money while they earned just as much as I did.

They also were offered overtime on many occasions because they could only make so much money otherwise they would loose thier benefits, which is also why they missed work on occasion...how do I know?

I was told this personally by one of them.

 

[BlancoNino]

The problem with healthcare is that the free markets don't breathe well in the health field.

 

[randym431]

The BIG problem is that health insurance is tied, and mostly always has been, to your job. Its a "benefit" from the employer. Soooo, good job = good insurance. Bad job = no or little insurance.

Thats a rotten American scenario, but thats the way it has been.

What the crime now is employers are thinking they don?t need to offer health insurance. They want to be greedy and save $$$. Look at Wal-Mart... One of the biggest employers but they decided to be as skimpy as possible on offering health insurance. Soooo, where are you going to get it from if not your employer??????????????????

I feel if a huge company decides to NOT play by the "American way", they should be banned from doing business in America!!!

Employment based health insurance needs to be changed..PERIOD!
Because NOW many employers ARE NOT offering insurance, offering poor and expensive insurance, or worse of all DROPPING their insurance benefits.

SOMETHING needs to be done to devise a new formula to cover people. Thats what we pay our taxes to leaders for, to make things work for people in America. Not just let the sh*t hit the fan, like they are doing now.

And if you already have cancer, aids, even high BP or diabetes, its near impossible to get covered by anyone, even an employer. Your only bet is to get a new job, that offers good insurance, and get in with OPEN ENROLLMENT.

Health insurance SHOUD NOT be tied to working. Theres NO protection in that method for people.

Soon, very soon, all those with the nice jobs and great health insurance benefits will crap their pants when their company drops and stops offering any type of health coverage. THAT DAY IS COMING FOLKS!!!!!

 

[Genx87]

There are plenty of govt programs out there to help you or look for a charity.
This idea because you lost a job and insurance you are now helpless and will die is overblown big time.

Of course maybe it is just a natural selection process where the people so helpless with themselves die off due to not being able to find free healthcare in the many area's offered through private or public programs, who knows.

/shrugs

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: bobdelt
If you want insurance.... get a job with benifits....

Most companies break deals with insurance so that all their employees have health care, regardless of past illnesses (Like my brother who had cancer, and had no problem getting new health insurance). I think a lot of you are confusing Life insurance with Health Insurance.

Its not hard to get insurance. Most people dont have it because they dont want to pay for it. Thats their choice. They cant put down the sushi and fancy cars and pay for insurance instead, but thats a decision they make.

If youre in a job where you cant afford insurance, go to school, get a loan from the gov't, you get health insurance in college, and when you graduate you'll get a job w\ benifits. It's amazing how this system works when you get off your ass and earn it yourself.

Really? and how old are you 18?

 

[blackangst1]

I hope you all realize just about every state has a health care pool you can join with a sliding scale on premiums? A friend of mine was unemployed for about 18 months and she and her kids were covered for about 21 bucks/mo. This talk of healthcare only available to employees and that the gov't doesnt offer healthcare is BS.

 

[StageLeft]

Having come from Canada, I can say the system in the US is better. Sure, bad things can happen, but there are bad things that can happen in Canada, too, like waiting for an MRI. When I needed one--for a pretty darn minor problem, I might add--I was literally in there as fast as I could drive over to the place. Ok, I had to wait for 10 min and read a magazine. Yeah...that is why I will be hard pressed to ever support anything that goes further from the US system and closer to one like that in Canada or England or any other places with public health care.

Anyway, there is a reason why privatized healthcare is becoming more common in Canada. It's because well-to-do people are sick of not being able to buy a service with their money. I am with them.

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: Wheezer
What you want is for someone to be able to walk into a hospital and say "treat me" or "cure me" and when the bill comes due it gets sent to your uncle sam.

That is not universal healthcare.

That is passing the buck.

If a poor smoker gets lung cancer, someone who brought the disease onto him or herself why should the taxpayers pick up the bill?
If a person who has no job wraps thier car around a tree while drinking and driving why should it be up to us to help them walk again?
If a person who has no job is high on drugs and OD's why should we pay for thier recovery?


#1 EVERYONE no matter which side of the fence you are on can agree on one thing, the goverment is inept when it comes to handling just about everything from money to the existing healthcare they provide the elderly, you want to trust them with YOUR medical bills and have them tell youwhat treatment you can and cannot get?

# 2 We can all agree there are those unscupulus people who will take advantage of it much like the welfare system.

#3 There are programs already in place for people. I personally know 3 people I worked with that made decent money. $12-15/hr. they all had one thing in common, they were eligible for insurance through work but declined. why? Because it would have cost them money and all 3 had enough children to qualify for health care coverage through the state.

they got
-healthcare
-Presciption drug benefits
-Welfare money for food/medicine
-All thier federal tax money back
-Thier wives got assistance for school
-Free child care

All through the state and using my money while they earned just as much as I did.

They also were offered overtime on many occasions because they could only make so much money otherwise they would loose thier benefits, which is also why they missed work on occasion...how do I know?

I was told this personally by one of them.

The scariest words in the english language are, "I'm from the Government and I'm here to help".
-Ronald Regan

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Wheezer
What you want is for someone to be able to walk into a hospital and say "treat me" or "cure me" and when the bill comes due it gets sent to your uncle sam.

That is not universal healthcare.

That is passing the buck.

If a poor smoker gets lung cancer, someone who brought the disease onto him or herself why should the taxpayers pick up the bill?
If a person who has no job wraps thier car around a tree while drinking and driving why should it be up to us to help them walk again?
If a person who has no job is high on drugs and OD's why should we pay for thier recovery?


#1 EVERYONE no matter which side of the fence you are on can agree on one thing, the goverment is inept when it comes to handling just about everything from money to the existing healthcare they provide the elderly, you want to trust them with YOUR medical bills and have them tell youwhat treatment you can and cannot get?

# 2 We can all agree there are those unscupulus people who will take advantage of it much like the welfare system.

#3 There are programs already in place for people. I personally know 3 people I worked with that made decent money. $12-15/hr. they all had one thing in common, they were eligible for insurance through work but declined. why? Because it would have cost them money and all 3 had enough children to qualify for health care coverage through the state.

they got
-healthcare
-Presciption drug benefits
-Welfare money for food/medicine
-All thier federal tax money back
-Thier wives got assistance for school
-Free child care

All through the state and using my money while they earned just as much as I did.

They also were offered overtime on many occasions because they could only make so much money otherwise they would loose thier benefits, which is also why they missed work on occasion...how do I know?

I was told this personally by one of them.

That's fine and dandy, sounds good in principle, except that the uninsured get services from hospitals anyways for life threatening situations. You already pay for them anyways.

The absolute flipside to this is that one rewrites the law to allow hospitals to refuse life saving services to anyone who cannot pay.

Pick your poison.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Tsunami982
universal healthcare is like communism, good in theory but bad in practice. im from taiwan, where they have universal healthcare. pros: everyone can get dirt cheap hospital visits for common illnesses. cons: doctors get paid less therefore it is harder to retain good doctors that know they can get paid more by moving. there is a reason why a lot of people still come to america for surgery.

as for canada having better cancer survival rate... first... im inclined not to believe it so unless i see a study from a reputable journal i highly doubt it. second, if it is true, it could also be because our average american diet is horrible and not because of our healthcare system.

And, if the US had universal health care, where would they move??

 

[HamSupLo]

Originally posted by: randym431
The BIG problem is that health insurance is tied, and mostly always has been, to your job. Its a "benefit" from the employer. Soooo, good job = good insurance. Bad job = no or little insurance.

Thats a rotten American scenario, but thats the way it has been.

What the crime now is employers are thinking they don?t need to offer health insurance. They want to be greedy and save $$$. Look at Wal-Mart... One of the biggest employers but they decided to be as skimpy as possible on offering health insurance. Soooo, where are you going to get it from if not your employer??????????????????

I feel if a huge company decides to NOT play by the "American way", they should be banned from doing business in America!!!

Employment based health insurance needs to be changed..PERIOD!
Because NOW many employers ARE NOT offering insurance, offering poor and expensive insurance, or worse of all DROPPING their insurance benefits.

SOMETHING needs to be done to devise a new formula to cover people. Thats what we pay our taxes to leaders for, to make things work for people in America. Not just let the sh*t hit the fan, like they are doing now.

And if you already have cancer, aids, even high BP or diabetes, its near impossible to get covered by anyone, even an employer. Your only bet is to get a new job, that offers good insurance, and get in with OPEN ENROLLMENT.

Health insurance SHOUD NOT be tied to working. Theres NO protection in that method for people.

Soon, very soon, all those with the nice jobs and great health insurance benefits will crap their pants when their company drops and stops offering any type of health coverage. THAT DAY IS COMING FOLKS!!!!!

I agree with this. For those who argue that the govt shouldn't be providing universal healthcare, i don't think employers should either. I think that healthcare coming as a benefit through employment is bunk. If you strip healthcare to its very core, it's essentially a public good whose costs/benefits should be borne by all.

I think that some sort of universal coverage would be a tremendous stimulus to the economy. Ironically, it would help our free market economy even more by freeing people from their existing jobs where they stay on out of fear of losing their coverage. People would be free to pursue their endevours and create new jobs and businesses.

 

[Zebo]

We already have near universal heath care. There are 80 million on Medicare and Medicaid most of the rest have insurance though thier employers or buy it. Emergencies are always taken care of without regaurd to ability to pay. So Overall I think the system is pretty good.

Who hurts the most is the working poor if they lose thier job or get dropped. They make too much to qualify for Medicaid and too little to pay high private premiums.

Thats the group I'd like to see some focus on. They are tax payers usually but get the shaft when it comes to recieving anything back when falling on hard times. So more a program like a medicaid for all below a certain income threshold. No need for "universal HC" or get the government involved other than a bill payer and collector just as they are doing now on medicaid/medicare. One would still go to private physicans, pharmacies and hospitals.

 

[Used Rugs]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
It's not that bad... really. Your insurance company can't just drop you because you get sick. If you lose/change your job you can keep your insurance. Yeah, it will cost more but it's cheaper than paying medical out of your pocket.

I guess I just object to the entire premise of your post.

Yes they can drop you. I know my best friend died of cancer and had to fight every step of the way to get the insurance companies to pay for his treatment. Our health-care system in the states is sick...

 

[Used Rugs]

Originally posted by: jrenz

also insurance companies won't insure someone who already has cancer. It isn't profitable.

Give me one reason why you would insure somebody who is already sick?

Your sick!! Are you saying that if you have cancer you should not be insured?
Wow.... I bet you are a Republican.. I can feel the love..

 

[Used Rugs]

Did you know that at the cost of this war. We could pay all Americans health care for the next 10 years. Including the 6 million illegals that here too.

So you Republicans would rather send kids to die and not insure the poor.

Yes I can feel the love.

 

[TravisT]

Hey, everyone knows our healthcare system isn't perfect. It is just better than everyone elses. As someone who pays for healthcare through my job, it is utterly ridiculous what I spend each paycheck to keep it and it continues to rise. I do not know what the answer is to fix the inflation, but I know I don't want a free healthcare system like Canada.

 

[fitzov]

Hey, everyone knows our healthcare system isn't perfect. It is just better than everyone elses.

I'll agree, with the caveat "...if you can afford it."

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: fitzov

Implying that not everyone gets or even deserves to get it?

Well, the implication is that it won't be any good if it's universalized, but your point is a good one. The govt and medical industry have been in bed with each other for a long time. Since the govt is supposed to be by and for the people, you would think that it should work towards the health of all of its citizens.

It's incredible how little people know about other countries and still make assumptions... let's see: (source OECD)

Life expectancy > Healthy years by country
#1 Japan 73.6 years
#2 Switzerland 72.8 years
#3 Sweden 71.8 years
#4 Australia 71.6 years
#5 France 71.3 years
#6 Iceland 71.1 years
#7 Italy 71 years
#8 Austria 71 years
#9 Spain 70.9 years
#10 Norway 70.8 years
#11 Luxembourg 70.6 years
#12 Greece 70.4 years
#13 New Zealand 70.3 years
#14 Germany 70.2 years
#15 Finland 70.1 years
#16 Denmark 70.1 years
#17 Netherlands 69.9 years
#18 Canada 69.9 years
#19 Belgium 69.7 years
#20 United Kingdom 69.6 years
#21 Ireland 69 years
#22 United States 67.6 years




Healthy life expectancy at birth, years > Females by country

Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Japan 77.7
#2 San Marino 75.9
#3 Switzerland 75.3
#4 Spain 75.3
#5 Monaco 75.2
#6 Sweden 74.8
#7 France 74.7
#8 Italy 74.7
#9 Andorra 74.6
#10 Australia 74.3
#11 Canada 74
#12 Germany 74
#13 Luxembourg 73.7
#14 Iceland 73.6
#15 Norway 73.6
#16 Austria 73.5
#17 Finland 73.5
#18 Belgium 73.3
#19 Greece 72.9
#20 Netherlands 72.6
#21 Slovenia 72.3
#22 Malta 72.3
#23 Israel 72.3
#24 New Zealand 72.2
#25 United Kingdom 72.1
#26 Portugal 71.7
#27 Ireland 71.5
#28 United States 71.3

Healthy life expectancy at birth, years > Males by country

#1 Japan 72.3
#2 Iceland 72.1
#3 Sweden 71.9
#4 Switzerland 71.1
#5 San Marino 70.9
#6 Australia 70.9
#7 Monaco 70.7
#8 Italy 70.7
#9 Israel 70.5
#10 Norway 70.4
#11 Canada 70.1
#12 Spain 69.9
#13 Andorra 69.8
#14 Netherlands 69.7
#15 Malta 69.7
#16 Germany 69.6
#17 New Zealand 69.5
#18 Austria 69.3
#19 France 69.3
#20 Luxembourg 69.3
#21 United Kingdom 69.1
#22 Greece 69.1
#23 Belgium 68.9
#24 Singapore 68.8
#25 Finland 68.7
#26 Denmark 68.6
#27 Ireland 68.1
#28 Kuwait 67.4
#29 United States 67.2

Nurses by country:
#1 Finland 14.7 per 1,000 people
#2 Ireland 14 per 1,000 people
#3 Netherlands 13.4 per 1,000 people
#4 Australia 10.7 per 1,000 people
#5 Switzerland 10.7 per 1,000 people
#6 Norway 10.3 per 1,000 people
#7 Canada 9.9 per 1,000 people
#8 New Zealand 9.6 per 1,000 people
#9 Germany 9.6 per 1,000 people
#10 Denmark 9.5 per 1,000 people
#11 Austria 9.2 per 1,000 people
#12 Sweden 8.8 per 1,000 people
#13 United Kingdom 8.8 per 1,000 people
#14 United States 8.1 per 1,000 people


Hospital beds by country:
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Switzerland 18.3 per 1,000 people
#2 Japan 16.4 per 1,000 people
#3 Norway 14.4 per 1,000 people
#4 Netherlands 11.1 per 1,000 people
#5 Ireland 9.7 per 1,000 people
#6 Germany 9.2 per 1,000 people
#7 Austria 8.8 per 1,000 people
#8 Czech Republic 8.7 per 1,000 people
#9 France 8.4 per 1,000 people
#10 Hungary 8.3 per 1,000 people
#11 Slovakia 8.1 per 1,000 people
#12 Luxembourg 8 per 1,000 people
#13 Australia 7.9 per 1,000 people
#14 Finland 7.6 per 1,000 people
#15 Belgium 7.3 per 1,000 people
#16 New Zealand 6.2 per 1,000 people
#17 Korea, South 5.5 per 1,000 people
#18 Poland 5.1 per 1,000 people
#19 Italy 4.9 per 1,000 people
#20 Greece 4.9 per 1,000 people
#21 Denmark 4.5 per 1,000 people
#22 Spain 4.1 per 1,000 people
#23 United Kingdom 4.1 per 1,000 people
#24 Portugal 4 per 1,000 people
#25 Canada 3.9 per 1,000 people
#26 Sweden 3.7 per 1,000 people
#27 United States 3.6 per 1,000 people



Acute care beds by country:
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Germany 9 per 1,000 people
#2 Czech Republic 6.5 per 1,000 people
#3 Austria 6.2 per 1,000 people
#4 Hungary 6 per 1,000 people
#5 Luxembourg 5.9 per 1,000 people
#6 Slovakia 5.6 per 1,000 people
#7 Poland 5 per 1,000 people
#8 Italy 4.6 per 1,000 people
#9 Switzerland 4 per 1,000 people
#10 France 4 per 1,000 people
#11 United Kingdom 3.9 per 1,000 people
#12 Australia 3.7 per 1,000 people
#13 Denmark 3.4 per 1,000 people
#14 Netherlands 3.3 per 1,000 people
#15 Canada 3.2 per 1,000 people
#16 Portugal 3.2 per 1,000 people
#17 Norway 3.1 per 1,000 people
#18 Ireland 3 per 1,000 people
#19 United States 2.9 per 1,000 people

Duration of hospitalisation by country:
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Switzerland 9.3 days
#2 Netherlands 9 days
#3 France 8.5 days
#4 Belgium 8 days
#5 Canada 7.2 days
#6 Italy 7 days
#7 United Kingdom 6.9 days
#8 Ireland 6.4 days
#9 Austria 6.3 days
#10 Australia 6.1 days
#11 Norway 6 days
#12 United States 5.8 days

Births with health staff by country
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Australia 100%
#2 New Zealand 100%
#3 Netherlands 100%
#4 Japan 100%
#5 Latvia 100%
#6 Singapore 100%
#7 Fiji 100%
#8 Korea, South 100%
#9 Cuba 100%
#10 Dominica 100%
#11 Saint Lucia 100%
#12 Portugal 100%
#13 Chile 100%
#14 Saint Kitts and Nevis 100%
#15 United States 99%

Heart disease deaths by country: (highest to lowest)
#13 United States 106.5 per 100,000 people
#14 Germany 106.1 per 100,000 people
#15 Denmark 105.4 per 100,000 people
#16 Canada 94.9 per 100,000 people
#17 Poland 80.9 per 100,000 people
#18 Netherlands 75.1 per 100,000 people
#19 Luxembourg 68.9 per 100,000 people
#20 Greece 68.8 per 100,000 people
#21 Italy 65.2 per 100,000 people
#22 Belgium 64.6 per 100,000 people
#23 Portugal 55.9 per 100,000 people
#24 Spain 53.8 per 100,000 people
#25 France 39.8 per 100,000 people
#26 Japan 30 per 100,000 people

Obesity by country:
#1 United States 30.6%
#2 Mexico 24.2%
#3 United Kingdom 23%
#4 Slovakia 22.4%
#5 Greece 21.9%
#6 Australia 21.7%
#7 New Zealand 20.9%
#8 Hungary 18.8%
#9 Luxembourg 18.4%
#10 Czech Republic 14.8%
#11 Canada 14.3%
#12 Spain 13.1%
#13 Ireland 13%
#14 Germany 12.9%
#15 Finland 12.8%
#16 Portugal 12.8%
#17 Iceland 12.4%
#18 Turkey 12%
#19 Belgium 11.7%
#20 Netherlands 10%
#21 Sweden 9.7%
#22 Denmark 9.5%
#23 France 9.4%
#24 Austria 9.1%
#25 Italy 8.5%
#26 Norway 8.3%
#27 Switzerland 7.7%
#28 Korea, South 3.2%
#29 Japan 3.2%

Percentage of life lived in ill health > Males by country: (highest to lowest)
#9 United States 10.8%
#10 Iceland 9.7%
#11 Belgium 9.5%
#12 Australia 9.4%
#13 Netherlands 9.4%
#14 Austria 9.3%
#15 Italy 9.2%
#16 Sweden 9.2%
#17 New Zealand 9.1%
#18 Finland 9.1%
#19 Germany 9.1%
#20 Norway 8.9%
#21 Spain 8.8%
#22 United Kingdom 8.8%
#23 France 8.7%
#24 Luxembourg 8.6%
#25 Greece 8.6%
#26 Japan 8.3%
#27 Ireland 8.3%
#28 Switzerland 8%
#29 Denmark 7.3%

Teenage pregnancy > Share by country: (Wow!)
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 United States 22%
#2 New Zealand 14%
#3 Hungary 12%
#4 Slovakia 12%
#5 Canada 10%
#6 Australia 9%
#7 Poland 9%
#8 Iceland 9%
#9 Portugal 9%
#10 Ireland 8%
#11 Czech Republic 7%
#12 Austria 7%
#13 Germany 6%
#14 Norway 5%
#15 Greece 5%
#16 Luxembourg 4%
#17 Belgium 4%
#18 Finland 4%
#19 France 4%

Teen birth rate by country:
#1 United States 64
#2 Bulgaria 59
#3 Czech Republic 46
#4 Slovakia 44
#5 Ukraine 43
#7 Hungary 41
#8 Romania 41
#10 Moldova 38
#11 New Zealand 35
#12 Latvia 35
#13 Estonia 34
#14 United Kingdom 33
#15 Lithuania 32
#16 Croatia 32
#17 Slovenia 30
#18 Iceland 29
#19 Poland 28
#20 Belarus 28
#21 Canada 27
#22 Portugal 25
#23 Austria 23
#24 Greece 22
#25 Australia 21
#26 Israel 20
#27 Norway 19
#28 Ireland 16
#29 Albania 14
#30 Luxembourg 13
#31 Germany 13
#32 Finland 13
#33 Sweden 13
#34 Malta 12
#35 Spain 12
#36 Belgium 10
#37 Denmark 10
#38 Italy 9
#39 France 9
#40 Netherlands 7
#41 Switzerland 5
#42 Japan 4


Maternal mortality by country: (highest to lowest)
#121 United States 8 per 100,000
#122 Netherlands 7 per 100,000
#123 United Kingdom 7 per 100,000
#124 Italy 7 per 100,000
#125 Croatia 6 per 100,000
#126 Ireland 6 per 100,000
#127 Singapore 6 per 100,000
#128 Finland 6 per 100,000
#129 Norway 6 per 100,000
#130 Spain 6 per 100,000
#131 Switzerland 5 per 100,000
#132 Sweden 5 per 100,000
#133 Kuwait 5 per 100,000
#134 Israel 5 per 100,000
#135 United Arab Emirates 3 per 100,000
#136 Grenada 1 per 100,000
#137 Greece

Here's the data. Notice how almost all the countries outperforming the US have public healthcare systems. But, but, but: you might say it's more expensive. Well...

Surprise:

Health care expenses > Total per capita by country (private+public)
#1 United States $4,631.00 per capita
#2 Switzerland $3,222.00 per capita
#3 Germany $2,748.00 per capita
#4 Iceland $2,608.00 per capita
#5 Canada $2,535.00 per capita
#6 Denmark $2,420.00 per capita
#7 France $2,349.00 per capita
#8 Belgium $2,268.00 per capita
#9 Norway $2,268.00 per capita
#10 Netherlands $2,246.00 per capita
#11 Australia $2,211.00 per capita
#12 Austria $2,162.00 per capita
#13 Italy $2,032.00 per capita
#14 Japan $2,011.00 per capita
#15 Ireland $1,953.00 per capita
#16 United Kingdom $1,764.00 per capita
#17 Finland $1,664.00 per capita
#18 New Zealand $1,623.00 per capita
#19 Spain $1,556.00 per capita

If you still want to be fool and claim the US has the best system in the world based on Nationalism go ahead. You should just know it's not true.

 

[Bowfinger]

Tango - very informative, and it should be pretty eye-opening to most people, myself included. Thank you.


I'll point out one other advantage of some sort of national health care or health insurance: it's better for American business. Businesses pay much of the cost of American health care today. While that presents a relatively level playing field when competing against other American businesses, in our increasingly global market, it puts American businesses at a competitive disadvantage compared to business in countries with some sort of government-funded health care. A U.S. government health program would help mitigate this.

It is not a silver bullet, unfortunately, since shifting health costs to the government, i.e., the taxpayers, would also increase business expenses due to higher taxes and salary pressure from employees who would see their net reduced. If we really want to solve the problem, we also need to reign in skyrocketing U.S. healthcare costs. I'd suggest big pharma is a good place to start, one of many.

 

[Legend]

Originally posted by: Tango

Originally posted by: fitzov

Implying that not everyone gets or even deserves to get it?

Well, the implication is that it won't be any good if it's universalized, but your point is a good one. The govt and medical industry have been in bed with each other for a long time. Since the govt is supposed to be by and for the people, you would think that it should work towards the health of all of its citizens.

It's incredible how little people know about other countries and still make assumptions... let's see: (source OECD)

Life expectancy > Healthy years by country
#1 Japan 73.6 years
#2 Switzerland 72.8 years
#3 Sweden 71.8 years
#4 Australia 71.6 years
#5 France 71.3 years
#6 Iceland 71.1 years
#7 Italy 71 years
#8 Austria 71 years
#9 Spain 70.9 years
#10 Norway 70.8 years
#11 Luxembourg 70.6 years
#12 Greece 70.4 years
#13 New Zealand 70.3 years
#14 Germany 70.2 years
#15 Finland 70.1 years
#16 Denmark 70.1 years
#17 Netherlands 69.9 years
#18 Canada 69.9 years
#19 Belgium 69.7 years
#20 United Kingdom 69.6 years
#21 Ireland 69 years
#22 United States 67.6 years




Healthy life expectancy at birth, years > Females by country

Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Japan 77.7
#2 San Marino 75.9
#3 Switzerland 75.3
#4 Spain 75.3
#5 Monaco 75.2
#6 Sweden 74.8
#7 France 74.7
#8 Italy 74.7
#9 Andorra 74.6
#10 Australia 74.3
#11 Canada 74
#12 Germany 74
#13 Luxembourg 73.7
#14 Iceland 73.6
#15 Norway 73.6
#16 Austria 73.5
#17 Finland 73.5
#18 Belgium 73.3
#19 Greece 72.9
#20 Netherlands 72.6
#21 Slovenia 72.3
#22 Malta 72.3
#23 Israel 72.3
#24 New Zealand 72.2
#25 United Kingdom 72.1
#26 Portugal 71.7
#27 Ireland 71.5
#28 United States 71.3

Healthy life expectancy at birth, years > Males by country

#1 Japan 72.3
#2 Iceland 72.1
#3 Sweden 71.9
#4 Switzerland 71.1
#5 San Marino 70.9
#6 Australia 70.9
#7 Monaco 70.7
#8 Italy 70.7
#9 Israel 70.5
#10 Norway 70.4
#11 Canada 70.1
#12 Spain 69.9
#13 Andorra 69.8
#14 Netherlands 69.7
#15 Malta 69.7
#16 Germany 69.6
#17 New Zealand 69.5
#18 Austria 69.3
#19 France 69.3
#20 Luxembourg 69.3
#21 United Kingdom 69.1
#22 Greece 69.1
#23 Belgium 68.9
#24 Singapore 68.8
#25 Finland 68.7
#26 Denmark 68.6
#27 Ireland 68.1
#28 Kuwait 67.4
#29 United States 67.2

Nurses by country:
#1 Finland 14.7 per 1,000 people
#2 Ireland 14 per 1,000 people
#3 Netherlands 13.4 per 1,000 people
#4 Australia 10.7 per 1,000 people
#5 Switzerland 10.7 per 1,000 people
#6 Norway 10.3 per 1,000 people
#7 Canada 9.9 per 1,000 people
#8 New Zealand 9.6 per 1,000 people
#9 Germany 9.6 per 1,000 people
#10 Denmark 9.5 per 1,000 people
#11 Austria 9.2 per 1,000 people
#12 Sweden 8.8 per 1,000 people
#13 United Kingdom 8.8 per 1,000 people
#14 United States 8.1 per 1,000 people


Hospital beds by country:
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Switzerland 18.3 per 1,000 people
#2 Japan 16.4 per 1,000 people
#3 Norway 14.4 per 1,000 people
#4 Netherlands 11.1 per 1,000 people
#5 Ireland 9.7 per 1,000 people
#6 Germany 9.2 per 1,000 people
#7 Austria 8.8 per 1,000 people
#8 Czech Republic 8.7 per 1,000 people
#9 France 8.4 per 1,000 people
#10 Hungary 8.3 per 1,000 people
#11 Slovakia 8.1 per 1,000 people
#12 Luxembourg 8 per 1,000 people
#13 Australia 7.9 per 1,000 people
#14 Finland 7.6 per 1,000 people
#15 Belgium 7.3 per 1,000 people
#16 New Zealand 6.2 per 1,000 people
#17 Korea, South 5.5 per 1,000 people
#18 Poland 5.1 per 1,000 people
#19 Italy 4.9 per 1,000 people
#20 Greece 4.9 per 1,000 people
#21 Denmark 4.5 per 1,000 people
#22 Spain 4.1 per 1,000 people
#23 United Kingdom 4.1 per 1,000 people
#24 Portugal 4 per 1,000 people
#25 Canada 3.9 per 1,000 people
#26 Sweden 3.7 per 1,000 people
#27 United States 3.6 per 1,000 people



Acute care beds by country:
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Germany 9 per 1,000 people
#2 Czech Republic 6.5 per 1,000 people
#3 Austria 6.2 per 1,000 people
#4 Hungary 6 per 1,000 people
#5 Luxembourg 5.9 per 1,000 people
#6 Slovakia 5.6 per 1,000 people
#7 Poland 5 per 1,000 people
#8 Italy 4.6 per 1,000 people
#9 Switzerland 4 per 1,000 people
#10 France 4 per 1,000 people
#11 United Kingdom 3.9 per 1,000 people
#12 Australia 3.7 per 1,000 people
#13 Denmark 3.4 per 1,000 people
#14 Netherlands 3.3 per 1,000 people
#15 Canada 3.2 per 1,000 people
#16 Portugal 3.2 per 1,000 people
#17 Norway 3.1 per 1,000 people
#18 Ireland 3 per 1,000 people
#19 United States 2.9 per 1,000 people

Duration of hospitalisation by country:
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Switzerland 9.3 days
#2 Netherlands 9 days
#3 France 8.5 days
#4 Belgium 8 days
#5 Canada 7.2 days
#6 Italy 7 days
#7 United Kingdom 6.9 days
#8 Ireland 6.4 days
#9 Austria 6.3 days
#10 Australia 6.1 days
#11 Norway 6 days
#12 United States 5.8 days

Births with health staff by country
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Australia 100%
#2 New Zealand 100%
#3 Netherlands 100%
#4 Japan 100%
#5 Latvia 100%
#6 Singapore 100%
#7 Fiji 100%
#8 Korea, South 100%
#9 Cuba 100%
#10 Dominica 100%
#11 Saint Lucia 100%
#12 Portugal 100%
#13 Chile 100%
#14 Saint Kitts and Nevis 100%
#15 United States 99%

Heart disease deaths by country: (highest to lowest)
#13 United States 106.5 per 100,000 people
#14 Germany 106.1 per 100,000 people
#15 Denmark 105.4 per 100,000 people
#16 Canada 94.9 per 100,000 people
#17 Poland 80.9 per 100,000 people
#18 Netherlands 75.1 per 100,000 people
#19 Luxembourg 68.9 per 100,000 people
#20 Greece 68.8 per 100,000 people
#21 Italy 65.2 per 100,000 people
#22 Belgium 64.6 per 100,000 people
#23 Portugal 55.9 per 100,000 people
#24 Spain 53.8 per 100,000 people
#25 France 39.8 per 100,000 people
#26 Japan 30 per 100,000 people

Obesity by country:
#1 United States 30.6%
#2 Mexico 24.2%
#3 United Kingdom 23%
#4 Slovakia 22.4%
#5 Greece 21.9%
#6 Australia 21.7%
#7 New Zealand 20.9%
#8 Hungary 18.8%
#9 Luxembourg 18.4%
#10 Czech Republic 14.8%
#11 Canada 14.3%
#12 Spain 13.1%
#13 Ireland 13%
#14 Germany 12.9%
#15 Finland 12.8%
#16 Portugal 12.8%
#17 Iceland 12.4%
#18 Turkey 12%
#19 Belgium 11.7%
#20 Netherlands 10%
#21 Sweden 9.7%
#22 Denmark 9.5%
#23 France 9.4%
#24 Austria 9.1%
#25 Italy 8.5%
#26 Norway 8.3%
#27 Switzerland 7.7%
#28 Korea, South 3.2%
#29 Japan 3.2%

Percentage of life lived in ill health > Males by country: (highest to lowest)
#9 United States 10.8%
#10 Iceland 9.7%
#11 Belgium 9.5%
#12 Australia 9.4%
#13 Netherlands 9.4%
#14 Austria 9.3%
#15 Italy 9.2%
#16 Sweden 9.2%
#17 New Zealand 9.1%
#18 Finland 9.1%
#19 Germany 9.1%
#20 Norway 8.9%
#21 Spain 8.8%
#22 United Kingdom 8.8%
#23 France 8.7%
#24 Luxembourg 8.6%
#25 Greece 8.6%
#26 Japan 8.3%
#27 Ireland 8.3%
#28 Switzerland 8%
#29 Denmark 7.3%

Teenage pregnancy > Share by country: (Wow!)
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 United States 22%
#2 New Zealand 14%
#3 Hungary 12%
#4 Slovakia 12%
#5 Canada 10%
#6 Australia 9%
#7 Poland 9%
#8 Iceland 9%
#9 Portugal 9%
#10 Ireland 8%
#11 Czech Republic 7%
#12 Austria 7%
#13 Germany 6%
#14 Norway 5%
#15 Greece 5%
#16 Luxembourg 4%
#17 Belgium 4%
#18 Finland 4%
#19 France 4%

Teen birth rate by country:
#1 United States 64
#2 Bulgaria 59
#3 Czech Republic 46
#4 Slovakia 44
#5 Ukraine 43
#7 Hungary 41
#8 Romania 41
#10 Moldova 38
#11 New Zealand 35
#12 Latvia 35
#13 Estonia 34
#14 United Kingdom 33
#15 Lithuania 32
#16 Croatia 32
#17 Slovenia 30
#18 Iceland 29
#19 Poland 28
#20 Belarus 28
#21 Canada 27
#22 Portugal 25
#23 Austria 23
#24 Greece 22
#25 Australia 21
#26 Israel 20
#27 Norway 19
#28 Ireland 16
#29 Albania 14
#30 Luxembourg 13
#31 Germany 13
#32 Finland 13
#33 Sweden 13
#34 Malta 12
#35 Spain 12
#36 Belgium 10
#37 Denmark 10
#38 Italy 9
#39 France 9
#40 Netherlands 7
#41 Switzerland 5
#42 Japan 4


Maternal mortality by country: (highest to lowest)
#121 United States 8 per 100,000
#122 Netherlands 7 per 100,000
#123 United Kingdom 7 per 100,000
#124 Italy 7 per 100,000
#125 Croatia 6 per 100,000
#126 Ireland 6 per 100,000
#127 Singapore 6 per 100,000
#128 Finland 6 per 100,000
#129 Norway 6 per 100,000
#130 Spain 6 per 100,000
#131 Switzerland 5 per 100,000
#132 Sweden 5 per 100,000
#133 Kuwait 5 per 100,000
#134 Israel 5 per 100,000
#135 United Arab Emirates 3 per 100,000
#136 Grenada 1 per 100,000
#137 Greece

Here's the data. Notice how almost all the countries outperforming the US have public healthcare systems. But, but, but: you might say it's more expensive. Well...

Surprise:

Health care expenses > Total per capita by country (private+public)
#1 United States $4,631.00 per capita
#2 Switzerland $3,222.00 per capita
#3 Germany $2,748.00 per capita
#4 Iceland $2,608.00 per capita
#5 Canada $2,535.00 per capita
#6 Denmark $2,420.00 per capita
#7 France $2,349.00 per capita
#8 Belgium $2,268.00 per capita
#9 Norway $2,268.00 per capita
#10 Netherlands $2,246.00 per capita
#11 Australia $2,211.00 per capita
#12 Austria $2,162.00 per capita
#13 Italy $2,032.00 per capita
#14 Japan $2,011.00 per capita
#15 Ireland $1,953.00 per capita
#16 United Kingdom $1,764.00 per capita
#17 Finland $1,664.00 per capita
#18 New Zealand $1,623.00 per capita
#19 Spain $1,556.00 per capita

If you still want to be fool and claim the US has the best system in the world based on Nationalism go ahead. You should just know it's not true.

No doctor can cure all the problems associated with obesity, and a terrible diet, which the US ranks #1 in.

Notice how Japan ranks the highest and is one of the thinnest nations out there?

I'm not saying our system is perfect. Drug companies are too focused on treating symptoms and not causes, huge profit margins, and ridiculous amounts of advertising.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Tango - very informative, and it should be pretty eye-opening to most people, myself included. Thank you.


I'll point out one other advantage of some sort of national health care or health insurance: it's better for American business. Businesses pay much of the cost of American health care today. While that presents a relatively level playing field when competing against other American businesses, in our increasingly global market, it puts American businesses at a competitive disadvantage compared to business in countries with some sort of government-funded health care. A U.S. government health program would help mitigate this.

It is not a silver bullet, unfortunately, since shifting health costs to the government, i.e., the taxpayers, would also increase business expenses due to higher taxes and salary pressure from employees who would see their net reduced. If we really want to solve the problem, we also need to reign in skyrocketing U.S. healthcare costs. I'd suggest big pharma is a good place to start, one of many.

Just to clarify... I wasn't by any mean taking a clear side and saying that public healthcare is always better. I just don't get how come many americans are so sure a private system is always better even when many indicators show the opposite.

 

[randym431]

We already have near universal heath care. There are 80 million on Medicare and Medicaid most of the rest have insurance though thier employers or buy it. Emergencies are always taken care of without regaurd to ability to pay. So Overall I think the system is pretty good.

Are you kidding???
You have any idea how many months or years it takes some to get on SS disability?
Its a long hard long wait!
And sure, you can walk into any ER and get treated with no insurance, but guess what, someone is paying for that. Guess who?

Hey, everyone knows our healthcare system isn't perfect. It is just better than everyone elses

This is a typical confusion. We "DO" have the best medical technology. Not the best healthcare "system".

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: Wheezer
What you want is for someone to be able to walk into a hospital and say "treat me" or "cure me" and when the bill comes due it gets sent to your uncle sam.

That is not universal healthcare.

That is passing the buck.

If a poor smoker gets lung cancer, someone who brought the disease onto him or herself why should the taxpayers pick up the bill?
If a person who has no job wraps thier car around a tree while drinking and driving why should it be up to us to help them walk again?
If a person who has no job is high on drugs and OD's why should we pay for thier recovery?


#1 EVERYONE no matter which side of the fence you are on can agree on one thing, the goverment is inept when it comes to handling just about everything from money to the existing healthcare they provide the elderly, you want to trust them with YOUR medical bills and have them tell youwhat treatment you can and cannot get?

# 2 We can all agree there are those unscupulus people who will take advantage of it much like the welfare system.

#3 There are programs already in place for people. I personally know 3 people I worked with that made decent money. $12-15/hr. they all had one thing in common, they were eligible for insurance through work but declined. why? Because it would have cost them money and all 3 had enough children to qualify for health care coverage through the state.

they got
-healthcare
-Presciption drug benefits
-Welfare money for food/medicine
-All thier federal tax money back
-Thier wives got assistance for school
-Free child care

All through the state and using my money while they earned just as much as I did.

They also were offered overtime on many occasions because they could only make so much money otherwise they would loose thier benefits, which is also why they missed work on occasion...how do I know?

I was told this personally by one of them.

That's fine and dandy, sounds good in principle, except that the uninsured get services from hospitals anyways for life threatening situations. You already pay for them anyways.

The absolute flipside to this is that one rewrites the law to allow hospitals to refuse life saving services to anyone who cannot pay.

Pick your poison.

which is exactly my point, we already have a system in place for those that need it. Let me also remind people that most of your local health departments offer services on an ability to pay basis.

 

[bobdelt]

Just because the government pays for your health care, doesnt mean its free!!! You're still paying for it one way or another.