Weapon ID

[bradly1101]

As we know, law enforcement jumps through hoops trying to ID the gun (and its owner) after a crime is committed with one.

In Milwaukee recently the owner of an expensive Stradivarius violin was attacked with a taser. The stolen violin was recovered thanks to confetti containing a serial number that a taser shoots out when it is used.

What if guns or bullets had this same feature? Gun owners who only use their guns legally shouldn't have a problem since this would only identify criminals. For law abiding gun owners, if you don't agree with this (if the technological hurdles were overcome) I would like to why.

I know what the NRA's position would be on this, but if we're in a gun-saturated society wouldn't it be great if there was a better way for the police to ID criminal shooters, like with tasers?

 

[Buckeye269]

So a gun shoots bullets and confetti?

 

[velillen]

Look up Micro-Stamping. its been tried and its a failure of a joke.

here are some of the MAJOR issues with it

1) Its done by the firing pin stamping a serial number onto the case head of the round being fired. How easy is this to get around? Simply file a few .001's off the end of your firing pin and you have removed the microstamping portion.

2) The actual casings from the fired round. Ok so now you have a case head that has YOUR gun's serial number (or whatever identification they put on). So you go shooting. Guns fling your brass all over the place, especially if at an indoor range. YOUR serialized case will get lost/mixed up with someone elses.

2A) So that brings up issue one. Now someone else either picked up your case or you lost it and someone then picks it up. Now someone could go commit a crime and drop your case (assuming same caliber) and YOU would then be the one getting questioned simply off a lost case

2B) What do you do with all these serialize cases? You arent going to just leave them with joe blow at the gun range (or i wouldnt) and Im not taking them to a scrap yard that is even more shady to recycle them. You cant reload them since they are already serialized. So what do you do with them? Turn them over to the police? Like they have a budget for that....

3) Since you have now taken the possibility of reloading ones own ammo without buying new brass every single time you have increased the cost across the board for ammo. brass is the most expensive part of a round. having to use new ones increases the cost for everyone. Costs more to recycle and reprocess (more volume of it), have to remake tons more, ect.


So you have created a system that does nothing to stop a criminal (file the stamp off or use someone elses cases and pick up yours) but instead just made it incredibly harder for your law abiding gun owner.


Is there a right way of doing it? maybe. Is having each gun serialize every single round the answer? NO

 

[MomentsofSanity]

You're referring to microstamping. Not a new idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_microstamping

 

[bradly1101]

How about if gun powder was mixed with serial number containing nano particles? I admit to not knowing enough to say this is possible.

 

[rudeguy]

As we know, law enforcement jumps through hoops trying to ID the gun (and its owner) after a crime is committed with one.

In Milwaukee recently the owner of an expensive Stradivarius violin was attacked with a taser. The stolen violin was recovered thanks to confetti containing a serial number that a taser shoots out when it is used.

What if guns or bullets had this same feature? Gun owners who only use their guns legally shouldn't have a problem since this would only identify criminals. For law abiding gun owners, if you don't agree with this (if the technological hurdles were overcome) I would like to why.

I know what the NRA's position would be on this, but if we're in a gun-saturated society wouldn't it be great if there was a better way for the police to ID criminal shooters, like with tasers?

You do know that most criminals don't buy ammo at places that would make you register, right?


Do you ever think these through? All these stupid gun laws just make things tougher on guys like me.

Also, you might want to look at how many bullets are fired a year. I don't think what you want would even be logistically possible. Take into account that some people are still shooting ammo made in the 1970s and your plan fans miserably.

 

[smackababy]

You do know that most criminals don't buy ammo at places that would make you register, right?


Do you ever think these through? All these stupid gun laws just make things tougher on guys like me.

Also, you might want to look at how many bullets are fired a year. I don't think what you want would even be logistically possible. Take into account that some people are still shooting ammo made in the 1970s and your plan fans miserably.

Cost and feasibility aren't things that come up with the gun debate. Who cares that the legislation would be basically unenforceable when it makes us all feel good!


Also, stealing a $1 million dollar violin is a pretty poor idea. Where would you fence it? There are like 650 Stradivarius instruments accounted for. It is not like you can just walk into an auction house and hope to get millions for it. The moment these idiots tried to sell it, they'd have been ID'd and caught.

 

[rudeguy]

Cost and feasibility aren't things that come up with the gun debate. Who cares that the legislation would be basically unenforceable when it makes us all feel good!


Also, stealing a $1 million dollar violin is a pretty poor idea. Where would you fence it? There are like 650 Stradivarius instruments accounted for. It is not like you can just walk into an auction house and hope to get millions for it. The moment these idiots tried to sell it, they'd have been ID'd and caught.

I just get pissed when liberal fucktards sit around thinking of these great ideas. Ideas that do nothing but cost me money and cause me hassle. Its like they took the trolley to the Land of Make Believe.

 

[bradly1101]

Do you ever think these through? All these stupid gun laws just make things tougher on guys like me.

I admit I didn't consider that potentially making something safer would impact people so negatively.

I guess I'm searching for answers that would lead people to only use guns lawfully. There must be an answer, we have the technology. Is safety worth some difficulty?

I know getting to all ammo is impossible, but we could make a dent in future crimes. Not worth it?

 

[rudeguy]

I admit I didn't consider that potentially making something safer would impact people so negatively.

I guess I'm searching for answers that would lead people to only use guns lawfully. There must be an answer, we have the technology. Is safety worth some difficulty?

I know getting to all ammo is impossible, but we could make a dent in future crimes. Not worth it?

Bad guy steals a gun and ammo.
Bad guy kills someone.

Now what happens with your plan?

Also please name one murder that has happened that this would have stopped.

 

[Thebobo]

I just get pissed when liberal fucktards sit around thinking of these great ideas. Ideas that do nothing but cost me money and cause me hassle. Its like they took the trolley to the Land of Make Believe.

Then stop reading the forums. And is that the best you can do when someone is having a rational discussion with you and you insult them and call them a
liberal fucktard?

You need a break you are way to obsessed with challenging everyone who has an opinion.

 

[velillen]

I admit I didn't consider that potentially making something safer would impact people so negatively.

I guess I'm searching for answers that would lead people to only use guns lawfully. There must be an answer, we have the technology. Is safety worth some difficulty?

I know getting to all ammo is impossible, but we could make a dent in future crimes. Not worth it?

you are suggesting things that do nothing but make it more difficult for law abiding gun owners. That is why you get so much resistance to things. Gun Owners see how it will effect them more than help anything.

Its just like when the AWB debate was going on and Vice (HBO guys) were doing the ChiRaq (chicago gangs) segment and the gang bangers were just laughing their asses off saying how they prefer pistols anyways and that those they do use are mostly stolen or black market bought.

 

[bradly1101]

Look up Micro-Stamping. its been tried and its a failure of a joke.

here are some of the MAJOR issues with it

1) Its done by the firing pin stamping a serial number onto the case head of the round being fired. How easy is this to get around? Simply file a few .001's off the end of your firing pin and you have removed the microstamping portion.

That would make that system unworkable, but what about making the powder/projectile identifiable for each box, and the ammo gets registered. I know this wouldn't go over well with gun owners and the NRA, but is a life worth the trouble and expense? How about a hundred lives?

2) The actual casings from the fired round. Ok so now you have a case head that has YOUR gun's serial number (or whatever identification they put on). So you go shooting. Guns fling your brass all over the place, especially if at an indoor range. YOUR serialized case will get lost/mixed up with someone elses.

ID'ing the casing won't help. What about imbedding something in the bullet?

3) Since you have now taken the possibility of reloading ones own ammo without buying new brass every single time you have increased the cost across the board for ammo. brass is the most expensive part of a round. having to use new ones increases the cost for everyone. Costs more to recycle and reprocess (more volume of it), have to remake tons more, ect.

Extra cost and effort (for any method) must be considered against lives saved by identifying a bullet/powder used in a crime and getting a murderer off the street.

Is there a right way of doing it? maybe. Is having each gun serialize every single round the answer? NO

More ideas would be great in this thread. Thanks for not implying that I'm an idiot for posting this.

 

[WackyDan]

I admit I didn't consider that potentially making something safer would impact people so negatively.

I guess I'm searching for answers that would lead people to only use guns lawfully. There must be an answer, we have the technology. Is safety worth some difficulty?

I know getting to all ammo is impossible, but we could make a dent in future crimes. Not worth it?

Microstamping of the firing pin face, or laser etching of ammo(both bullet and case) both have much the same issues associated with them.

More importantly, if you look at the main objective of those calling for these requirements to be enforced you'll find not that they believe in these as a solution but that they believe microstamping and laser etching will cause such high costs of retooling that they will put some gun manufacturers (especially the many mom and pop operations out there) and many ammo manufacturers out of business. That is their core focus.

Also, for you to look at these requirements as a public safety measure? Really? Make a dent in future crimes by mandating stiffer sentences for crimes involving firearms or deadly weapons and then carry out the whole sentence with no parole and you will solve part of that puzzle. Next is to stop punishing those of us who are law abiding citizens.

 

[waggy]

LOL

yeah ideas like this will work! ..not.

i guess it would if everyone fallowed the law on buying guns/ammo and didn't steal any.

 

[rudeguy]

Then stop reading the forums. And is that the best you can do when someone is having a rational discussion with you and you insult them and call them a
liberal fucktard?

You need a break you are way to obsessed with challenging everyone who has an opinion.

So I shouldn't speak my opinion?

The point is to show how little these stupid ideas would do in the real world. Putting all this focus on catching someone after they murder someone and thinking it will decrease murders is not a rational thought.

 

[Moonbeam]

Will crime end when every criminal is caught. I don't think so, but I would imagine crime might decrease among those who don't want to pay a price for it. The time is fast approaching when a digital record of everything we do can be recorded. I am sure the criminal mind stands in terror of the mark of the beast.

 

[Doppel]

How about if gun powder was mixed with serial number containing nano particles? I admit to not knowing enough to say this is possible.

This is a smart idea--in fact so smart it has in fact been researched.

This article says it's no good, at least in gun powder when it was written 15 years ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/09/us/gunpowder-markers-not-feasible-panel-says.html

 

[Doppel]

Will crime end when every criminal is caught. I don't think so, but I would imagine crime might decrease among those who don't want to pay a price for it. The time is fast approaching when a digital record of everything we do can be recorded. I am sure the criminal mind stands in terror of the mark of the beast.

This is absolutely true. We are very fast approaching a point at which damn near all crimes can be solved virtually real-time, through a combination of digital tracking of our movements, facial recognition, pattern matching, etc. I have no experience in solving crimes at all and can easily envision a number of things that will catch people in the future using technology that already exists.

Within my life time the incidence of violent crime is going to plummet because people will be increasingly scared of it and, those fools too stupid to be scared, will be caught earlier on in their careers.

 

[Moonbeam]

This is absolutely true. We are very fast approaching a point at which damn near all crimes can be solved virtually real-time, through a combination of digital tracking of our movements, facial recognition, pattern matching, etc. I have no experience in solving crimes at all and can easily envision a number of things that will catch people in the future using technology that already exists.

Within my life time the incidence of violent crime is going to plummet because people will be increasingly scared of it and, those fools too stupid to be scared, will be caught earlier on in their careers.

But think of the imagined horror of government abuse, and the real actual potential for it via data manipulation on the inside. We will surely need to figure out how to make things very tamperproof and archive data carefully. Great potential for the good I guess means great potential for abuse. Eternal vigilance and so on........

 

[bradly1101]

If a criminal knows his bullet can be ID'd, he probably would be less likely to use it. Yes they can be stolen, but lawful ammunition purchasers will hopefully keep them well protected, and report if they're stolen.

A gun doesn't kill...without a human and a bullet. Linking them to help prevent crime is logical IMO.

I have a facebook friend (from grade school) who makes his own ammo. He posts pictures of his setup, part of which looks like a drill press. Even he could buy identifiable materials, but he never would.

 

[ivwshane]

All the criminals I read about are super smart, they leave no traces of evidence and always purchase their guns on the black market.

Coming up with ways to make identifying criminals easier is a waste of time, criminals are just too smart!

It's why most crimes go unsolved now a days, criminals are just too good at evading police.

And let's not even talk about the cost of implementing such a thing! We all know that gun manufacture profits are razor thin (I think they make a dollar a gun) and with the arms market being so weak right now there is no way they could afford the tooling necessary! And even if they could they would have to raise the price of their guns by about $10 and there is no way your average gun buyer is going to pay that steep of a premium which only makes the gun market even weaker!

What we need is a plan that will stop only bad guys from getting guns and not cost a dime to gun manufactures or good gun buyers and it needs to be 100% percent effective, anything less is a waste of time!

/s

 

[brycejones]

If only responsible gun owners would secure their weapons then we wouldn't have to worry about any possible solution being shot down because of gun theft.

Seriously though there are real technical issues with micro-stamping that really do preclude it from being effective as mentioned above.

 

[Fern]

I admit I didn't consider that potentially making something safer would impact people so negatively.

I guess I'm searching for answers that would lead people to only use guns lawfully. There must be an answer, we have the technology. Is safety worth some difficulty?

I know getting to all ammo is impossible, but we could make a dent in future crimes. Not worth it?

There's a guy, an ATF agent IIRC, who is considered the top expert on guns used by criminals in committing crimes. He has stats on how they acquired their weapon; I've posted links to articles about him several times. Bottom line is criminals do not legally purchase weapons/guns so such a tracking ability would be largely useless (unless the criminal borrowed the gun, illegal gun sellers, stolen guns etc would be of no help).

Also, think what you're saying: "I'm searching for answers that would lead people to only use guns lawfully". Well, clearly didn't help deter the thief in the Stradivarius example.

Fern

 

[Fern]

-snip-
ID'ing the casing won't help. What about imbedding something in the bullet?

Think about that for a minute.

How many rounds of ammo has Homeland Security purchased recently? Hint: It's in the billions.

How are you going to number all this stuff?

You can't put the number on the outside of a bullet, it would be destroyed.

How are you going to embed it inside? If you try to, how can you ensure it doesn't mess up the ballistics? That it remains balanced and flies accurately? We don't need 'unbalanced' bullets flying sideways etc.

Fern