Weapons of Mass destruction found.

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EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: EXman
Kilxx and Conjur since we are so dumb and failed all our classes can you enlighten us to where thes WMD's that were proven to be there that he already used went? Untill you bring that answer out your butt please excuse us while we laugh at you all.

Just answer the question what did Saddam do with his Real WMD's that have been proven that he had in the early 90's? Yes Proven. :roll:

You just really don't like to read, do you?


UNMOVIC worked throughout the 90s to destroy and dismantle the WMDs and the programs to create them. And, here are David Kay's own words:

http://in.news.yahoo.com/040406/137/2ceq7.html

By the time he resigned in January this year Kay said he had come to believe Iraq did not possess any large stockpiles of biological and chemical weapons when the United States invaded.

"I believe they became incapable after 1998 of really producing a coherent program," he said. "By December I clearly had told everyone that, but it's not true in July."

Vanity Fair reported Kay said he was ready to quit in December but Tenet pleaded with him to stay on because it would look bad if he left early.

Your buddies Bush/Powell/Rumsfeld have stated they not only knew Saddam had stockpiles of WMDs but they knew where these WMDs were. So, I ask you again, where are they?

Another BS post not answering the question just posing another one.
Uh...I answered your question (I bolded your question to make it easier for you to see what you asked me. My response was the David Kay summarization.

Answer mine:

Your buddies Bush/Powell/Rumsfeld have stated they not only knew Saddam had stockpiles of WMDs but they knew where these WMDs were. So, I ask you again, where are they?



you need to read the Whole thing!
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Former U.S. weapons inspector David Kay said on Monday that he had not concluded by July 2003 that Iraq did not possess any weapons of mass destruction as reported by Vanity Fair magazine.

<snip>

<cut to the chase...the summary>
By the time he resigned in January this year Kay said he had come to believe Iraq did not possess any large stockpiles of biological and chemical weapons when the United States invaded.

"I believe they became incapable after 1998 of really producing a coherent program," he said. "By December I clearly had told everyone that, but it's not true in July."

Vanity Fair reported Kay said he was ready to quit in December but Tenet pleaded with him to stay on because it would look bad if he left early.

Kay even says they could be in Syria a hotbed on Terrorism or do you doubt that as well

just answer the question don't dodge it with half facts and partisan speculation

Kay had four hypotheses, yes, in July 2002. By Jan. 2003, though, he was down to one belief and it's highlighted above.

Just what are they teaching in schools these days that new students are coming out with such horrendous comprehension skills at reading??[/quote]

Read what you highlighted and tell me that me ALL WEAPONS WERE GONE?

So this guys OPINION is fact? Educated or not it is his opinion nothing more. c'mon you can do better I hope!

So what if they cannot make them in great quantities. where did the weapons in hand go to? duh ?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: conjur
Kay had four hypotheses, yes, in July 2002. By Jan. 2003, though, he was down to one belief and it's highlighted above.

Just what are they teaching in schools these days that new students are coming out with such horrendous comprehension skills at reading??
Read what you highlighted and tell me that me ALL WEAPONS WERE GONE?

So this guys OPINION is fact? Educated or not it is his opinion nothing more. c'mon you can do better I hope!

So what if they cannot make them in great quantities. where did the weapons in hand go to? duh ?

Ok, ALL WEAPONS WERE GONE. You happy now?

I never said it was fact. However, if we're to take anyone's opinion as to the state of the disposition of the WMDs, he would be the guy. I mean, he was only over there in charge of the inspections, not you or I.

And, why can you not consider that the weapons were really destroyed but Saddam didn't feel like documenting it? Is that so impossible of a scenario?

And, you have dodged my question yet again. What's the matter, afraid to answer? Afraid to admit you don't know something?

I'll ask AGAIN:

Your buddies Bush/Powell/Rumsfeld have stated they not only knew Saddam had stockpiles of WMDs but they knew where these WMDs were. So, I ask you again, where are they?
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: conjur
Kay had four hypotheses, yes, in July 2002. By Jan. 2003, though, he was down to one belief and it's highlighted above.

Just what are they teaching in schools these days that new students are coming out with such horrendous comprehension skills at reading??
Read what you highlighted and tell me that me ALL WEAPONS WERE GONE?

So this guys OPINION is fact? Educated or not it is his opinion nothing more. c'mon you can do better I hope!

So what if they cannot make them in great quantities. where did the weapons in hand go to? duh ?

Ok, ALL WEAPONS WERE GONE. You happy now?

I never said it was fact. YOU IMPLY IT However, if we're to take anyone's opinion as to the state of the disposition of the WMDs, he would be the guy. I mean, he was only over there in charge of the inspections, not you or I. SO IT IS HIS BEST GUESS? Whoopdeedoo-Da

And, why can you not consider that the weapons were really destroyed but Saddam didn't feel like documenting it? Is that so impossible of a scenario?

And, you have dodged my question yet again. What's the matter, afraid to answer? Afraid to admit you don't know something?

I'll ask AGAIN:

Your buddies Bush/Powell/Rumsfeld have stated they not only knew Saddam had stockpiles of WMDs but they knew where these WMDs were. So, I ask you again, where are they?

Oh ok according to you they are all gone I feel so much safer now! :roll:

They are weapons of MASS Destruction you do not need stockpiles of WMD's to do A TON of damage. Understand? Most look like they are gone but NOBODY can account for the weapons they already posessed.

I never dodged a question EVER. I asked you to answer w/o posing another question which is the liberal MO.

Also this is a funny statement here
And, you have dodged my question yet again. What's the matter, afraid to answer? Afraid to admit you don't know something?
So, I ask you again, where are they?

Well I'll tell you againg since you didn't comprehend the first time! Go back and read my post I already said this mister smart guy reading comprehension goober
Personally I think the technology and some percentage went to Syria. but that is JUST AN OPINION. at least I can admit that my opinion is just that an opinion instead of treating it as fact as you all have.
Damn I bet you feel silly!

I guess you win the battle of poor reading comprehension! Even though mine is fine you were just reading that article with liberal glasses on.

I'll check back later gotta go to work you can pawn off your lies as fact for a few hours now.
 

SmokeRngs

Member
Apr 30, 2004
80
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: SmokeRngs
Originally posted by: conjur
Not necessarily. When was the last time he had used WMDs? He had plenty of chances to use them against us during the 1991 Gulf War and afterward against the Kurdish and Shiite rebellions. I think Saddam toyed with the U.N. and use an appearance that his WMDs existed to somehow seem as if he held some high cards in his hands.


Then why didn't he show his hand when his bluff was called?
Maybe because he didn't want to? Maybe he didn't want Iraq nuked?

Also, it wouldn't have been a complete bluff. He had them and everyone knew it.
In 1991, yes.

You just shot yourself in the foot. You said he didn't use them in 1991 Gulf war, yet it was after that that UN inspectors came in and started destroying the WMDs. He obviously had them during the 1991 Gulf War.
Not in the least did I shoot myself in the foot. How did I? I never said he didn't have them in 1991 nor afterward. I've said he most likely didn't have them when we invaded in 2003. There is no proof despite the Bush administration claims they knew Saddam had WMDs and they knew where they were.


You are insinuating Saddam was using the appearance of having WMDs as a bluff and didn't really have any. By showing the proof that he destroyed them, he could have avoided being thrown out of power when the US called this so called bluff. There would have been no reason to worry about getting nuked. I think you should actually re-read what you had said before. You aren't actually making much sense at this point considering you are not even following your original point.

Saddam also had them in 1998 when he kicked the inspectors out. Everyone knows that too. That's also the main point. He can't show any proof he destroyed them, and the burden of proof is on him. It was not the worlds job to prove he had what we already knew he had. That was done once. It was his job to prove that he destoyed them. He did not have that proof.

You argue in Saddam's favor that he couldn't have had WMDs since he didn't use them in 2003 against US forces. He didn't use them against US forces in 1991 either. That is where you are shooting yourself in the foot.
 

SmokeRngs

Member
Apr 30, 2004
80
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Ok, ALL WEAPONS WERE GONE. You happy now?

I never said it was fact. However, if we're to take anyone's opinion as to the state of the disposition of the WMDs, he would be the guy. I mean, he was only over there in charge of the inspections, not you or I.

And, why can you not consider that the weapons were really destroyed but Saddam didn't feel like documenting it? Is that so impossible of a scenario?

And, you have dodged my question yet again. What's the matter, afraid to answer? Afraid to admit you don't know something?

I'll ask AGAIN:

Your buddies Bush/Powell/Rumsfeld have stated they not only knew Saddam had stockpiles of WMDs but they knew where these WMDs were. So, I ask you again, where are they?

No, I won't take take his opinion as fact. Just like Saddam, he could not prove the WMDs were destroyed. Saddam is the one that had to prove they were destroyed or tell us where they are. He did neither.

How anyone could believe that Saddam destroyed the WMDs but has no proof and take that as fact?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: SmokeRngs
Originally posted by: conjur
Ok, ALL WEAPONS WERE GONE. You happy now?

I never said it was fact. However, if we're to take anyone's opinion as to the state of the disposition of the WMDs, he would be the guy. I mean, he was only over there in charge of the inspections, not you or I.

And, why can you not consider that the weapons were really destroyed but Saddam didn't feel like documenting it? Is that so impossible of a scenario?

And, you have dodged my question yet again. What's the matter, afraid to answer? Afraid to admit you don't know something?

I'll ask AGAIN:

Your buddies Bush/Powell/Rumsfeld have stated they not only knew Saddam had stockpiles of WMDs but they knew where these WMDs were. So, I ask you again, where are they?

No, I won't take take his opinion as fact. Just like Saddam, he could not prove the WMDs were destroyed. Saddam is the one that had to prove they were destroyed or tell us where they are. He did neither.

How anyone could believe that Saddam destroyed the WMDs but has no proof and take that as fact?

And, you have dodged my question yet again. What's the matter, afraid to answer? Afraid to admit you don't know something?

I'll ask AGAIN:

Your buddies Bush/Powell/Rumsfeld have stated they not only knew Saddam had stockpiles of WMDs but they knew where these WMDs were. So, I ask you again, where are they?


(why do I feel like I'm talking to a robot?)
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: SmokeRngs
You are insinuating Saddam was using the appearance of having WMDs as a bluff and didn't really have any. By showing the proof that he destroyed them, he could have avoided being thrown out of power when the US called this so called bluff. There would have been no reason to worry about getting nuked. I think you should actually re-read what you had said before. You aren't actually making much sense at this point considering you are not even following your original point.
We're dealing with a psychopath here. I never said he made logical decisions.


Saddam also had them in 1998 when he kicked the inspectors out. Everyone knows that too. That's also the main point. He can't show any proof he destroyed them, and the burden of proof is on him. It was not the worlds job to prove he had what we already knew he had. That was done once. It was his job to prove that he destoyed them. He did not have that proof.
BZZZT! Wrong! Saddam NEVER kicked the inspectors out in 1998. Saddam did stop cooperating but it was the Clinton administration that pulled the inspectors out just prior to an attack.


You argue in Saddam's favor that he couldn't have had WMDs since he didn't use them in 2003 against US forces. He didn't use them against US forces in 1991 either. That is where you are shooting yourself in the foot.
I never said he couldn't have. I have dealt in possibilities. You are the one trying to deal in absolutes. That is illogical considering the uncertainties involved.
 

Format C:

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,662
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
We're dealing with a psychopath here. I never said he made logical decisions.

A psychopath that supported terrorism, committed heinous acts of torture and genocide against his own people, used WMD against his own people, utilized WMD in a war with one of his neighbors, invaded another neighboring country, but...

Originally posted by: conjur
Saddam was not a threat...no way...no how.

And you have the temerity to castigate others for their lack of logical argumentation. What a hoot. Using your style of "logic" one could Conjur up the argument that Hitler was a really nice guy that just needed to be loved.

As for your question of where are the WMD's, they're exactly where they've always been. Right where that poor misunderstood jolly old fella who's never been a threat to anyone put 'em. The entire world owes him a debt of gratitude for keeping them safely out of the hands of those who might actually use them.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: Format C:
Originally posted by: conjur
We're dealing with a psychopath here. I never said he made logical decisions.

A psychopath that supported terrorism, committed heinous acts of torture and genocide against his own people, used WMD against his own people
While we sat by and watched
utilized WMD in a war with one of his neighbors
With our blessings
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Format C:
Originally posted by: conjur
We're dealing with a psychopath here. I never said he made logical decisions.

A psychopath that supported terrorism, committed heinous acts of torture and genocide against his own people
And we did what about it then? You do recall that happened during Republican presidencies, right?

used WMD against his own people
And we did what about it then? You do recall that happened during Republican presidencies, right? He also used WMDs that the U.S. had given him intelligence on how to use and American companies had sold him the chemical components for those gases. Also, you might want to check into what happened to Sen. Pell's Prevention of Genocide Act of 1988 and how the Reagan administration worked to defeat its passage in the house (after having been unanimously passed in the Senate.)

utilized WMD in a war with one of his neighbors
With the support (or at least w/out the condemnation) of the U.S. And, again, Saddam had the benefit of having U.S. intelligence in how to use the weapons and had been given satellite photos showing Iranian troop locations to maximize the effect of the damage of the WMDs.

invaded another neighboring country
Remember this?

"We do not have any defence treaties with Kuwait, and there are no special defence or security commitments to Kuwait." -- Margaret Tutweiller, US State Department spokeswoman, 24th July 1990, nine days before Iraq's invasion of Kuwait


Originally posted by: conjur
Saddam was not a threat...no way...no how.

And you have the temerity to castigate others for their lack of logical argumentation. What a hoot. Using your style of "logic" one could Conjur [sic] up the argument that Hitler was a really nice guy that just needed to be loved.

As for your question of where are the WMD's, they're exactly where they've always been. Right where that poor misunderstood jolly old fella who's never been a threat to anyone put 'em. The entire world owes him a debt of gratitude for keeping them safely out of the hands of those who might actually use them.
Oh? They're right where he put them?

Those same locations that Rumsfeld said he knew about?

The same location that Powell showed satellite pictures of with arrows pointing to the WMDs?


Hmmm...why has it taken 14 months for our troops to reach those locations?
 

clarkey01

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
3,419
1
0
"gee....i thought all you liberals claimed they didn't exist..

i already know what you're going to claim..

"they only found one?...that doesn't count.."

well, does any rational person believe they produced only one Sarin Gas artillery shell?


no WMD?

Ha."





The first coment says its all

Yeah....Justified and its happend, so get over it. Im for peace but incase you aint noticed it dont work like that .....arguing in a forum aint goona stop or erase the war...its happend and its still going on....
 

YellowRose

Senior member
Apr 22, 2003
247
0
0
Sorry folks. Exposer to Sarin Nerve gas is not a minor bo bo (treat and release) that is fixed with a band-aid. If it truly was Sarin nerve gas then their would have been some dead bodies. That crap is just plain nasty for those not in MOPP 4
 

BLoop

Senior member
Sep 25, 2000
448
0
0
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0521-06.htm

Iraq Sarin Shell is not Part of a Secret Cache
by Scott Ritter


In the mid-1980s I served as the intelligence officer for a Marine artillery battalion. Stationed in Twentynine Palms, Calif., I would often find myself deployed in the field, on exercises where thousands of live artillery rounds were fired downrange. In keeping with the Marine artillery motto of "shoot, move, communicate," we were always moving from one firing location to another to simulate modern war. This mobility had us often passing through live-fire impact areas. One thing you quickly learned was not to touch anything lying on the ground, because modern artillery shells had a high "dud" rate, meaning they didn't always function the way they were intended. Tens of thousands of these "duds" were scattered across the desert terrain, not unlike those found in Iraq.

What makes this relevant now is the ongoing speculation about the source of the sarin chemical artillery shell that the US military found rigged as an improvised explosive device (IED) last week in Baghdad. If the 155-mm shell was a "dud" fired long ago - which is highly likely - then it would not be evidence of the secret stockpile of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) that the Bush administration used as justification to invade Iraq.As a United Nations weapons inspector in Iraq from 1991 to 1998, I know that the Iraq Survey Group (ISG), the US-led unit now responsible for investigating WMD in Iraq, could quite easily determine whether this shell had been fired long ago or not. Given the trouble the administration has had in documenting its past allegations about WMD, releasing the news of last week's sarin shell without the key information about the state of the shell itself seems disingenuous.

As a former UN inspector, I'm also familiar with the level of disarmament achieved concerning Iraq's banned WMD. And during my time in Iraq, 95 percent of the WMD produced by Iraq were verifiably accounted for. But I've always contended that Iraq is a WMD archaeological site, and that if one digs long enough, vestiges of these past WMD programs will be uncovered. Determining whether the discovery of the sarin artillery shell represents such an archaeological discovery, or is part of Saddam Hussein's alleged stockpile of WMD, rests with a full forensic exam of the shell.

The key to whether the sarin artillery round came from an arms cache or was a derelict dud rests in the physical characteristics of the shell. The artillery shells in question were fitted with two aluminum cannisters separated by a rupture disk. The two precursor chemicals for the kind of sarin associated with this shell were stored separately in these containers. The thrust of the shell being fired was designed to cause the liquid in the forward cannister to press back and break the rupture disk, whereupon the rotation of the shell as it headed downrange would mix the two precursors together, creating sarin. Upon impact with the ground - or in the air, if a timed fuse was used - a burster charge would break the shell, releasing the sarin gas.

Many things go wrong when firing an artillery round: the propellent charge can be faulty, resulting in a round that doesn't reach its target; the fuse can malfunction, preventing the burster charge from going off, leaving the round intact; the rupture disk can fail to burst, keeping precursor chemicals from combining. The fuse could break off on impact, leaving the fuse cavity empty. To the untrained eye, the artillery shell, if found in this state, would look weathered, but unfired.

What gives away whether the shell had been fired is the base-bleed charge, which unlike the rest of the shell, will show evidence of being fired (or not). Iraq declared that it had produced 170 of these base-bleed sarin artillery shells as part of a research and development program that never led to production. Ten of these shells were tested using inert fill - oil and colored water. Ten others were tested in simulated firing using the sarin precursors. And 150 of these shells, filled with sarin precursors, were live-fired at an artillery range south of Baghdad. A 10 percent dud rate among artillery shells isn't unheard of - and even greater percentages can occur. So there's a good possibility that at least 15 of these sarin artillery shells failed and lie forgotten in the Iraq desert, waiting to be picked up by any unsuspecting insurgent looking for raw material from which to construct an IED.

Given what's known about sarin shells, the US could be expected to offer a careful recital of the data with news of the shell. But facts that should have accompanied the story - the type of shell, its condition, whether it had been fired previously, and the age and viability of the sarin and precursor chemicals - were absent. And that's opened the door to irresponsible speculation that the shell was part of a live WMD stockpile. The data - available to the ISG - would put this development in proper perspective - allowing responsible discussion of the event and its possible ramifications.

Given that the US is in the midst of a contentious presidential campaign, it's essential that accurate data about Iraq be available to the electorate. The handling of the sarin shell incident is the greatest justification yet for shutting down the ISG, and the immediate return to Iraq of UN weapons inspectors - if for no other reason than to restore a vestige of credibility to a disarmament effort that long ago lost its moral compass.

? Scott Ritter was a UN weapons inspector in Iraq (1991-1998) and is author of 'Frontier Justice: Weapons of Mass Destruction and the Bushwhacking of America.'

I'm sure some of you folks probably don't put much stock in what Scott Ritter has to say on the subject, but I thought it made some good points about where this shell may have come from. Until full details are released on it's pedigree, it's hard to say one way or the other. It is a bit curious though that more specifics weren't released at the same time the story broke.

Maybe no one will read this. This thread may finally be ready to die.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Given what's known about sarin shells, the US could be expected to offer a careful recital of the data with news of the shell. But facts that should have accompanied the story - the type of shell, its condition, whether it had been fired previously, and the age and viability of the sarin and precursor chemicals - were absent. And that's opened the door to irresponsible speculation that the shell was part of a live WMD stockpile. The data - available to the ISG - would put this development in proper perspective - allowing responsible discussion of the event and its possible ramifications.

I wonder when, if ever, we'll learn this. If it were proven (and apparently it should be known) that this shell wasn't a left-over, I think it'd be plastered all over the place and Powell would be shouting from the rooftops.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
What? Do you mean that the press release might have been designed to deliberately mislead people, allow false impressions to take hold in their pre-conditioned consciousnesses? That partial truths are often more useful for propaganda purposes than the whole truth, or even than an outright lie?

Say it ain't so!

I'm sure that there are some who still believe those bogus CW mortar rounds found last year were the real thing, even uselessly rotted out as they were... What's that line about a lie getting halfway around the world before the truth can get its pants on? Half a lie is probably even faster...
 

Format C:

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,662
0
0
Yup, gotta be a left over dud. So says Mr Ritter from his armchair. Everyone knows Saddam never had WMD's and that he was never a threat, not no-way, not no-how.
 

Zephyr106

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
1,309
0
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
What? Do you mean that the press release might have been designed to deliberately mislead people, allow false impressions to take hold in their pre-conditioned consciousnesses? That partial truths are often more useful for propaganda purposes than the whole truth, or even than an outright lie?

Say it ain't so!

I'm sure that there are some who still believe those bogus CW mortar rounds found last year were the real thing, even uselessly rotted out as they were... What's that line about a lie getting halfway around the world before the truth can get its pants on? Half a lie is probably even faster...

I'm sure there's some who believe Saddam Hussein was personally involved in September 11th, and could strike the US within 45 minutes.... with his single Sarin-filled mortar shell.

Zephyr
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Zephyr106
I'm sure there's some who believe Saddam Hussein was personally involved in September 11th, and could strike the US within 45 minutes.... with his single Sarin-filled mortar shell.

Zephyr
I want to see the gun that can shoot that shell from Iraq to the U.S. If Iraq had a gun like that, I might have supported an invasion. Yikes! That would constitute a threat.


 

TMPadmin

Golden Member
Jul 23, 2001
1,886
0
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Zephyr106
I'm sure there's some who believe Saddam Hussein was personally involved in September 11th, and could strike the US within 45 minutes.... with his single Sarin-filled mortar shell.

Zephyr
I want to see the gun that can shoot that shell from Iraq to the U.S. If Iraq had a gun like that, I might have supported an invasion. Yikes! That would constitute a threat.



Is there any real threat that would be enough for the US to attack another country? Or do we need to loose another 3000 + lives first to justify it?
 

DanJ

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
3,509
0
0
Originally posted by: TMPadmin
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Zephyr106
I'm sure there's some who believe Saddam Hussein was personally involved in September 11th, and could strike the US within 45 minutes.... with his single Sarin-filled mortar shell.

Zephyr
I want to see the gun that can shoot that shell from Iraq to the U.S. If Iraq had a gun like that, I might have supported an invasion. Yikes! That would constitute a threat.


Is there any real threat that would be enough for the US to attack another country? Or do we need to loose another 3000 + lives first to justify it?

Yea, because 9/11 == Iraq. :roll:
 
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