Well here I go, many nights of research! Your opinion is needed!

[bigj91]

Hi,

Name is Jack, my first post here, so do not kill me! Please criticize, suggest, improve my plan?

APPROXIMATE PURCHASE DATE: 2-3 Weeks

BUDGET RANGE: $2800-$3250 before rebates

SYSTEM USAGE FROM MOST TO LEAST IMPORTANT: Medical field- Sql database(lytec md) with 10 users logged on from workstations-accessing large raw format xray pictures,etc, enter/pull patient demographics.

PARTS NOT REQUIRED: Keyboard, mouse, monitor, speakers

PREFERRED WEBSITE(S) FOR PARTS: Newegg.com or other reputable sites

COUNTRY OF ORIGIN: USA

PARTS PREFERENCES: Intel CPU, Windows Server 2003 32bit

OVERCLOCKING: No

SLI OR CROSSFIRE: No

MONITOR RESOLUTION: N/a

ADDITIONAL COMMENTS: Server will be running 24hrs,365 days a week. Reliability is most important! I wanted to go with a xenon server motherboard, but also no SATA III. Currently the main program LYTEC MD 2010 is 32bit software with a future 64bit edition released in at least 2years. System will be used for at least 5 years. Ssd will be running on the sata III controller with operating system and main sql database with Lytec md. WD RE4s in a raid 1 on Sata II controller will be backing up everything on the ssd. The memory is excessive since 32bit can only address 4GB max. Also i was told that Windows server 2003 enterprise can address more than 4GB Ram? I am trying to lower the cost! I appreciate any help! Prices below before cashback.

CPU: Xeon W3570 $899(5%)
Mobo: Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD7 $339(15%)
RAM: 1x Mushkin Enahnced Redline 3x2 GB 1600 mhz CAS Latency 6 $239(2%)
GPU: HD 5670 $99(15%)
SSD: Crucial C300 256GB $799(6.0%)
HDD: 2x WD RE4 2TB $620(2%)
PSU: Corsair HX850W $170
Case: Corsair Obsidian 800D $235 (8%)
Optical: SH-S223L $27(15%)
OS: Windows Server 2003 5cal 1cpu 32bit $150

Total: Without cashback/with software-$3,387, $3256-Without software/with rebates.

 

[SunnyD]

If you need a server, why aren't you getting a real server?

A couple notes:
- SATA3 is irrelevant right now. Especially given you're only running a single SSD.
- 32 bit apps, unless specifically incompatible, will run just fine under 64-bit windows.
- You're running a SQL database, which means you want as much memory as you can possibly stuff into it.
- You're spending the money on a Xeon, but you're not buying ECC ram? This is a mission critical server?

To be bluntly honest, you should probably be specing something out with Dell and putting 3 year NBD onsite service and support on it. I wouldn't even consider trying something mission critical like what you're describing to something that's "not really" a server, especially something built by hand. That's just asking for problems down the line, and guess who gets to shoulder all the blame for it...

 

[Joepublic2]

If you're doing serious work and insist on a DIY system with an emphasis on reliability you really need to be looking at ECC RAM and a RAID 5 or RAID 6 array with hot swap capability and a couple spare drives at the very least. I would suggest downgrading that processor to something cheaper that supports ECC and sinking the extra cash into more ram (lots of ECC ram is a must for good DB performance in general) and a good HW raid controller. It won't make much of a difference now if your program is limited to 32 bit addressing but when you get an updated version it will really spread its wings with more RAM.

Windows server 2003 enterprise can address more than 4GB with PAE but you'd be better off with a 64bit OS and A LOT more ECC ram than what you have in mind. RAM > anything that runs on a SATA interface performance wise, even SSDs as far as databases go.

 

[CurseTheSky]

What you're building looks more like a gaming machine than a workstation / server.

- Ditch the HD 5670. Go with integrated graphics (and probably Intel at that). Why add one more point of failure ("gaming" graphics drivers) on a business machine?
- There's ABSOLUTELY no need for an 850 watt power supply. Get something in the 300-450 range, with high efficiency.
- The 800D is complete overkill. There are plenty of cases that look nice, have great airflow, and are quiet, yet are much cheaper.
- High performance / overclocking memory on a business work station? I'd go with 3x4GB of cheaper memory and a 64-bit OS.
- A motherboard designed for overclocking? Just get something that's reliable. You should NEVER touch the overclocking options on a business machine. An Intel board should be more than plenty.

Your emphasis is on 24/7, 365 use but you're buying gaming grade parts. Get a server motherboard, server-class storage (dedicated RAID card included), redundant power supplies, etc. In other words, buy a server. Don't buy a gaming machine that's bound to have something die in the next year or two. If you buy an OEM server (HP, Dell, etc.) you should receive better support than chasing doing various vendors if say, the power supply dies and takes the motherboard with it.

 

[CurseTheSky]

Here are my suggestions. Some that knows more about servers than I do can critique this for you.

Processor - $350
Motherboard - $205
Memory (2x) - $510 total
RAID card - $450

Then you just need hard drives, power supply(ies), a case, and a few other goodies.

 

[Hacp]

If something goes wrong who do you blame? Buy the dell, then you can blame dell. This is key.

 

[bigj91]

Thanks for injecting some sense into me, not sure what I was thinking(shame on me). Cursethesky, I would rather build this system, but the more I ponder, getting a Dell Precision T3500 or similar with next day onsite for 3years sounds even better. I am on the phone with Dell, Here is what I am supposed to spec,

"These requirements reflect the minimum requirements of the LytecMD application. Customers should not assume any operating system, network or hardware configuration is supported unless it is listed in this document. These requirements are designed to serve the needs of both large enterprise
customers as well as smaller physician groups in private practice. When purchasing hardware for your LytecMD system, consider the following:

Database server must have separate operating system and data partitions. Data partition must be a non-conflicted network drive. Separate OS (operating system) and data partitions are required with the data partition labeled (P:\). The drive letter must be a non-conflicting network drive. The biggest space-user is scanning or imaging. You will want to provision 10GB to 50GB a year for growth.

All RAID configuration must be hardware driven (i.e., a hardware RAID controller)

Use tape media if possible. This allows for a periodic archiving to cold storage and off-site storage backup.
Scale the tapes and tape backup drive to match expected growth.


LytecMD does not support 64 bit operating systems.

A domain infrastructure is required for use with LytecMD. A domain provides a robust security model with which to secure your entire network, and affords the ability to alter file and directory permissions at a more granular level.

Server Requirements-
Operating System

LytecMD has been tested and approved to operate on Microsoft Windows Server 2003 Standard or
Enterprise. Any other operating system is untested and considered unsupported (please see the
exception under Oracle Database Servers). Windows NT 4.0 and Windows 2000/2003 Small Business
Server are not supported.

Sites with 1-25 users typically will use the c-tree Server database type.

Small Practice (1 to 25 concurrent users, 0-5 Terminal Services users - LytecMD Recommendation

Single Processor Dual core 2.0GHz+ or Quad core 1.8GHz+
RAM 4 GB
System Drive 32 GB or higher
Data Drive RAID-5,
Network Card 1 Gbps
Optical Drive (DVD) Required
Backup VXA, DLT, LTO or image based backup solution
(large enough to backup entire DATA folder)
Video 1024x768
UPS (Battery) 1500VA or higher

FAX SERVER- LytecMD recommends ZetaFax used with a Brooktrout fax board. ZetaFax and Windows Server 2003 fax server are both integrated and supported."

I am not sure about the fax server, as Brooktrout(hardware) and Zetafax(software) is EXPENSIVE!!

Thanks for the inputs, keep them coming!

 

[Jimbo]

I had a lengthy response earlier, but this site ate it.

Just get a Dell, and if you need to save money, then go to Dell Outlet. Pay extra for the service and just enjoy your life and be happy that Dell will be sweating this server's lifespan and not you.

NEVER custom build a server yourself for anything that matters, if you can help it.

 

[bigj91]

Thanks for trying, I am off to bed!! I tried to configure a Poweredge T310 with a Xeon 3440,Raid 5 with 3x 500GB SATA II, 3years pro support onsite24hr, was expensive? Anybody have any tips?

j

I had a lengthy response earlier, but this site ate it.

Just get a Dell, and if you need to save money, then go to Dell Outlet. Pay extra for the service and just enjoy your life and be happy that Dell will be sweating this server's lifespan and not you.

NEVER custom build a server yourself for anything that matters, if you can help it.

 

[bigj91]

Here is what $4,799 brings me from Dell(no tape back/operating system) any suggestions?-

1x-PowerEdge T310-PowerEdge T310 Chassis with upto 4 Hot-Plug Hard Drives and LCD Diagnostics

1x-Processor-Intel Xeon X3440, 2.53 GHz, 8M Cache, Turbo, HT

1x-Memory-4GB Memory (2x2GB), 1333MHz, Dual Ranked RDIMM

1x-Operating System-No Operating System

1x-Primary Controller-RAID 5-Add-in PERC H700 Adapter, Internal RAID Controller 512MB Cache for 3-4 Hot Plug Hard Drives

3x-Hard Drives-450GB 15K RPM Serial-Attach SCSI 6Gbps 3.5in Hotplug Hard Drive

1x-Additional Controller-None

1x-Power Supply-Redundant,400W

1x-OS Partitions-None

1x-Embedded Management-iDRAC6 Express

1x-Network Adapter-On-Board Dual Gigabit Network Adapter

1x-Internal Optical Drive-DVD-ROM, Internal

1x-Power Cords-Power Cord, NEMA 5-15P to C13 (2), wall plug, 10 feet, Quantity 2

1x-Hardware Support Services/Warranty-3 Year ProSupport for IT and Mission Critical 4HR 7x24 Onsite Pack

 

[hans007]

this seems like an utter waste to me. you are buying an enthusiast board, and a really expensive xeon cpu but you wont overclock (and shouldnt since its a server).

you need some sort of video card since 1366 boards dont have onboard video , but why a 5670.


If you want to save $1000 up front, get a 920, buy some ECC ram which doesnt really cost much more than non -ecc, buy a cheaper X58 board like this asus that still has 6 dimms slots
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131386


and buy a $200-230 i7 920 which still has HT etc. and buy a radeon 4350 or whatever cheap pci-e card is $20. Just saved you $1000 or so, just mail me $500 of that and we are both better off

If you are building a data base server you do not need the absolute fastest cpu. you might want HT, but you are going to want lots of fast disks with raid etc.


also get this memory
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-043-_-Product

its cheaper, its ECC. you dont need ddr3-1600 on a non overclocked core i7. it probably isnt even a good idea as those are probably running at some out of spec voltage etc.

 

[Gillbot]

Dude, get a dell.

 

[SunnyD]

If you want to save $1000 up front, get a 920, buy some ECC ram which doesnt really cost much more than non -ecc, buy a cheaper X58 board like this asus that still has 6 dimms slots
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131386

Hans... ECC memory isn't compatible with desktop i7's (eg: the 920). Only the Xeons.

 

[Tristicus]

365 days a week

 

[klocwerk]

Since you asked for advice...
DO NOT BUILD THIS YOURSELF.

As an IT pro of many years, I know the temptation to DIY to save a little bit of cash, but it is SO VERY NOT WORTH IT. I've been down that road a couple of times. Avoid it. When (not if) it dies, you will get so much crap even though we all know it wasn't your fault.

My advice would be to grab an HP DL380 G6. My last job ran all HP gear, never had one die unlike the Dells I'd used in previous employment. Totally converted me to HP in my closets.
You can find them fairly cheap, especially if you have a good account rep at a reseller (pcmall, pcconnection, cdw, etc.). Here's a stock one for $2600 http://www.pcconnection.com/IPA/Shop...082&cac=Result
Would need some HD upgrading to do what you need, but totally capable.
Get their 3 year on-site service, make sure you're backing it up, and you'll be able to sleep at night.

 

[PsiStar]

Go to Dell .. on the initial web page & do a search for "refurb"

drill into that for your server. I am pretty sure that the warranties & site maintenance are all the same & available.

For instance PowerEdge

 

[aigomorla]

U would want a gainestown on an enterprise package.

 

[sonoran]

Since you asked for advice...
DO NOT BUILD THIS YOURSELF.

As an IT pro of many years, I know the temptation to DIY to save a little bit of cash, but it is SO VERY NOT WORTH IT. I've been down that road a couple of times. Avoid it. When (not if) it dies, you will get so much crap even though we all know it wasn't your fault.

My advice would be to grab an HP DL380 G6. My last job ran all HP gear, never had one die unlike the Dells I'd used in previous employment. Totally converted me to HP in my closets.
You can find them fairly cheap, especially if you have a good account rep at a reseller (pcmall, pcconnection, cdw, etc.). Here's a stock one for $2600 http://www.pcconnection.com/IPA/Shop...082&cac=Result
Would need some HD upgrading to do what you need, but totally capable.
Get their 3 year on-site service, make sure you're backing it up, and you'll be able to sleep at night.

You also need to ask yourself "How long can I afford for this server to be down?" What happens to the business if the motherboard goes out?

I'll second the HP DL380 recommendation. We've got a few dozen of them in our dept (DL360's and DL380's), and have only had a few hardware issues over the years. If you have 4 hour response time on your support, you can rest pretty easy.

Also put some thought into backup. And don't let RAID 5 lull you into a false sense of security - we've had a RAID controller go bad and scramble all the disks. What if the building catches fire and destroys all the media inside? How do you get a system back online? Backups are MANDATORY. Offsite backups are even better.

There's nothing wrong with trying to keep costs reasonable, but reliability does not come for free.

 

[modestninja]

Thanks for injecting some sense into me, not sure what I was thinking(shame on me). Cursethesky, I would rather build this system, but the more I ponder, getting a Dell Precision T3500 or similar with next day onsite for 3years sounds even better. I am on the phone with Dell, Here is what I am supposed to spec,

"These requirements reflect the minimum requirements of the LytecMD application. Customers should not assume any operating system, network or hardware configuration is supported unless it is listed in this document. These requirements are designed to serve the needs of both large enterprise
customers as well as smaller physician groups in private practice. When purchasing hardware for your LytecMD system, consider the following:

Database server must have separate operating system and data partitions. Data partition must be a non-conflicted network drive. Separate OS (operating system) and data partitions are required with the data partition labeled (P:\). The drive letter must be a non-conflicting network drive. The biggest space-user is scanning or imaging. You will want to provision 10GB to 50GB a year for growth.

All RAID configuration must be hardware driven (i.e., a hardware RAID controller)

Use tape media if possible. This allows for a periodic archiving to cold storage and off-site storage backup.
Scale the tapes and tape backup drive to match expected growth.


LytecMD does not support 64 bit operating systems.

A domain infrastructure is required for use with LytecMD. A domain provides a robust security model with which to secure your entire network, and affords the ability to alter file and directory permissions at a more granular level.

Server Requirements-
Operating System

LytecMD has been tested and approved to operate on Microsoft Windows Server 2003 Standard or
Enterprise. Any other operating system is untested and considered unsupported (please see the
exception under Oracle Database Servers). Windows NT 4.0 and Windows 2000/2003 Small Business
Server are not supported.

Sites with 1-25 users typically will use the c-tree Server database type.

Small Practice (1 to 25 concurrent users, 0-5 Terminal Services users - LytecMD Recommendation

Single Processor Dual core 2.0GHz+ or Quad core 1.8GHz+
RAM 4 GB
System Drive 32 GB or higher
Data Drive RAID-5,
Network Card 1 Gbps
Optical Drive (DVD) Required
Backup VXA, DLT, LTO or image based backup solution
(large enough to backup entire DATA folder)
Video 1024x768
UPS (Battery) 1500VA or higher

FAX SERVER- LytecMD recommends ZetaFax used with a Brooktrout fax board. ZetaFax and Windows Server 2003 fax server are both integrated and supported."

I am not sure about the fax server, as Brooktrout(hardware) and Zetafax(software) is EXPENSIVE!!

Thanks for the inputs, keep them coming!

I helped put together a fax server farm for our company (I hated every minute of perpetuating an outdated technology when there were better solutions available to us) and those Brooktrouts are seriously expensive. It doesn't seem like you need the number of channels that we did, but if I recall, for 24 channels over a T1, you were looking at 15K + a few grand a year if you wanted a warranty. I think even their cheap 2 channel analogue boards were about half your budget... I can see how you can but together a decent SQL Server with what's left after purchasing one of those cards.

Is there any way to expand your budget?

 

[bigj91]

Yeah, really outrageous in 2010 we still have analogue fax! We are looking at the cheapest Brooktrout- TruFax 100 LS, since we just have one regular pots analog line that we use for fax? You suggested there are better solutions available, are they cheaper if so what are they?

thanks

I helped put together a fax server farm for our company (I hated every minute of perpetuating an outdated technology when there were better solutions available to us) and those Brooktrouts are seriously expensive. It doesn't seem like you need the number of channels that we did, but if I recall, for 24 channels over a T1, you were looking at 15K + a few grand a year if you wanted a warranty. I think even their cheap 2 channel analogue boards were about half your budget... I can see how you can but together a decent SQL Server with what's left after purchasing one of those cards.

Is there any way to expand your budget?

 

[SunnyD]

To be honest, this is starting to sound more and more like a production-level operation you should be asking a solutions provider or contractor for, not a bunch of forum geeks.

If you don't know what you're doing on a project like this, you really should be hiring experienced help to manage this implementation.

 

[modestninja]

Yeah, really outrageous in 2010 we still have analogue fax! We are looking at the cheapest Brooktrout- TruFax 100 LS, since we just have one regular pots analog line that we use for fax? You suggested there are better solutions available, are they cheaper if so what are they?

thanks

I don't know of any cheaper hardware solutions since there aren't many companies in the faxing server hardware business so Brooktrout can basically set their price. The only other option would be having a 3rd party such as E-Fax, Premiere Global, Biscom, etc... do the faxing part for you. They generally charge a small flat fee per line and then a per page rate. Depending on the volume of faxes send or receive that could make sense.

 

[veri745]

To be honest, this is starting to sound more and more like a production-level operation you should be asking a solutions provider or contractor for, not a bunch of forum geeks.

If you don't know what you're doing on a project like this, you really should be hiring experienced help to manage this implementation.

Agreed. There's a reason there are several multi-billion dollar corporations that specialize in this type of system.

 

[SunnyD]

Agreed. There's a reason there are several multi-billion dollar corporations that specialize in this type of system.

I meant to add (for the OP) - apologies if I sounded like an ass saying that too, it was unintended. I just know from past professional experience that when you start something that sounds like this, going the "hobby" route instead of picking up real tin is going to bite you in the ass sooner rather than later. I've been put in this position myself a couple times in the past.

 

[bigj91]

No harm done. I realized after posting the build looks more like a gaming pc. I am negotiating with dell. Looking at server models t310 or t410 with 1 xenon, sas raid 5 or raid 50 or raid 10? I cant decide! Also getting 3 years 7x24, 4hr response, pro support. The warranty(insurance) is a almost much as the server! Anybody have any suggestions on the raid 5, 50 or 10? Leaning towards raid 5 or 10, because 50 requires 6 hard disks minimum and complexity. Thoughts? Also many thanks to Jimbo for the help!

j

I meant to add (for the OP) - apologies if I sounded like an ass saying that too, it was unintended. I just know from past professional experience that when you start something that sounds like this, going the "hobby" route instead of picking up real tin is going to bite you in the ass sooner rather than later. I've been put in this position myself a couple times in the past.