were my workplace privacy rights violated?

[Thorny]

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: NL5

You're missing the point, and don't understand the law. When he logged onto his account using their equipment he opened himself up for their search. They have every right to see what is being done with their equipment, and what is being brought into the workplace. If you have a locker at work, guess what, they can search that anytime as well.

You are confusing searches of your property versus searches of the companies property. Two entirely different things.

Say a company searches your locker and you have your debit card and pin number in there. Is it ok for them to also search through your checking account for suspicious history?

How would they even do that?

What you guys are trying to argue that a person (in this case a company) doesn't have the right to search their own computer. Kinda crazy thinking if you ask me.

How would they do that? Well gee, you insert your debit card into an ATM and then you type in your PIN. Many banks allow you to view statements on the screen or have them printed out right there at the ATM.

And actually, no. No information was stored on the company's computer. The information was stored off-site at the e-mail provider's database sites. To access this data, they had to use the employee's information and retrieve the data from their server. On top of that, they used the person's account to forward e-mail.

The data was on THEIR computer, right? Or did the go to yahoo and access his account with a yahoo computer? If it wasn't on the companies computer how did they see it. Answer - it was on the computer because he brought it into the workplace.

I've been to court before and seen employees try and use this as a defense. It doesn't work. Period.

Don't do anything on a company computer that you don't want them to be able to see.

The data was NOT on thier computer. If they would've disconnected that computer from the internet they would not have been able to access that email. The OP never stated that he had opened or read that email at work so as far as we know that information had NEVER crossed their network. The OP did not bring that info to the workplace, his employer went out and got it.

 

[NL5]

Originally posted by: Thorny

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: NL5

You're missing the point, and don't understand the law. When he logged onto his account using their equipment he opened himself up for their search. They have every right to see what is being done with their equipment, and what is being brought into the workplace. If you have a locker at work, guess what, they can search that anytime as well.

You are confusing searches of your property versus searches of the companies property. Two entirely different things.

Say a company searches your locker and you have your debit card and pin number in there. Is it ok for them to also search through your checking account for suspicious history?

How would they even do that?

What you guys are trying to argue that a person (in this case a company) doesn't have the right to search their own computer. Kinda crazy thinking if you ask me.

How would they do that? Well gee, you insert your debit card into an ATM and then you type in your PIN. Many banks allow you to view statements on the screen or have them printed out right there at the ATM.

And actually, no. No information was stored on the company's computer. The information was stored off-site at the e-mail provider's database sites. To access this data, they had to use the employee's information and retrieve the data from their server. On top of that, they used the person's account to forward e-mail.

The data was on THEIR computer, right? Or did the go to yahoo and access his account with a yahoo computer? If it wasn't on the companies computer how did they see it. Answer - it was on the computer because he brought it into the workplace.

I've been to court before and seen employees try and use this as a defense. It doesn't work. Period.

Don't do anything on a company computer that you don't want them to be able to see.

The data was NOT on thier computer. If they would've disconnected that computer from the internet they would not have been able to access that email. The OP never stated that he had opened or read that email at work so as far as we know that information had NEVER crossed their network. The OP did not bring that info to the workplace, his employer went out and got it.

By him logging on to his account on their computer, the data was on their computer. Why is that so hard to understand.

Go to court. Let me know how it works out for you. Been there. You will lose. Guaranteed.

Good luck.

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: NL5
snip
By him logging on to his account on their computer, the data was on their computer. Why is that so hard to understand.

Go to court. Let me know how it works out for you. Been there. You will lose. Guaranteed.

Good luck.

I didn't realize that reading comprehension was such a problem on this forum.

Let's put this in simple terms for all you people arguing that the information was on the company's computer.

OP gets e-mail from new employer on Yahoo email. HE NEVER OPENS IT ON THE WORK MACHINE. Therefore, it can logically be assumed, since it is a web-based interface, that the email remained on the YAHOO server and NOT the company server. Hence, the company had NO right to access the email. And with that, the company had no right to use his email account to forward a message in his name.

 

[Thorny]

Originally posted by: NL5


By him logging on to his account on their computer, the data was on their computer. Why is that so hard to understand.

Go to court. Let me know how it works out for you. Been there. You will lose. Guaranteed.

Good luck.

Since when did logging into yahoo open up all your email and store it on your HD? Your facts don't support your argument at all. Please do explain when the information in that particular email crossed the company's network without the OP having opened it. Its amazing you know how this will play out in court, but you don't understand how email works. :disgust:

 

[miniMUNCH]

I would've spilled my hot cup of coffee on that IT guy. "I hope that email was worth some 1st degree burns...bitch."

I also think that an IT person using an employee's personal anything account is highly unethical to say the least.

 

[miniMUNCH]

BTW...what kind of a software engineer is that lax with computer security that you just walk away from a open desktop.

Do you use four letter passwords too?

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: hans007
so far,... i have been told to go home and not come back and that they are paying me my entire 2 weeks notice period to stay home. the vice president of HR said that i was completely in the wrong and they completely had every right to search my yahoo mail, and since they determined i was not a security risk (their justification of looking at my email in the first place) that they deleted the email and now it was all "ok".

Sounds like they are now trying to cover their own ass in order not to get sued now. Even if you believe that the company is "in the right" (which I still think they aren't) to read through your personal e-mails while you are away from your desk, remember that, they used your account without authorization to forward the email to themselves.

You are wrong. Anything you do on THEIR computer is THEIR business. He is a fool for doing his PRIVATE business on a company computer. I'll bet he even signed an agreement stating that he is aware of this fact. Try and sue them. Good luck with that.

If he sent a personal e-mail using Yahoo or read an e-mail on his Yahoo account and the company's monitoring software picked up the contents, that's FINE. I'm not disputing that! I don't think anyone in this thread is disputing that. But what the company did was actively used his account while he was away, without his permission, to obtain personal information about him, in this case the offer letter from the prospective company. Good luck trying to convince a judge that leaving your Yahoo account logged on while away from your desk implies permission and consent to search and "seizure" (copying the e-mail by forward).

You're missing the point, and don't understand the law. When he logged onto his account using their equipment he opened himself up for their search. They have every right to see what is being done with their equipment, and what is being brought into the workplace. If you have a locker at work, guess what, they can search that anytime as well.

You are confusing searches of your property versus searches of the companies property. Two entirely different things.

They certainly have rights to search the employee's email account that belongs to the company as it is considered to be company property. However, Yahoo e-mail accounts do not belong to employers therefore they do not have rights to search the account. They do have rights to monitor the employee's usage of the Yahoo account, i.e., traffic to and from Yahoo's mail server which may incidentally include emails that were sent and/or opened on the computer. Lastly, the company has NO rights, none when it comes to using the employee's personal e-mail account to send e-mails on the employee's behalf to themselves or another party.

 

[chuckywang]

Originally posted by: hans007
well the thing is... the subject of the account just happened to be "offer letter". i know they can MONITOR what i am doing. but does that give them the right to click on the email, and then click forward and then send it to someone else at the company.

thats all im asking. i have no idea if ill do anything, but i just want to know if it was illegal or not.

i m ean my yahoo account was not created here, the email was not created here, i just was VIEWING main yahoo mail pane. our company policy says that we can browse the web for personal use as long as it does not affect our productivity.

it actually says that in our employee handbook , but i am fairly certain that doesnt give them the right to actually USE my yahoo email account even if it was open.

i mean does that mean that if they log all my email passwords with say a keylogger through monitoring (which is legal), can they go into all my personal bank accounts and email accounts and snoop and forward all the mail in those accounts using that information? i mean isnt this nearly like that HP thing with using the employees info to get their phone records?

lke i said, sure it was dumb to check personal email at work. but people do it all the time. and if they had monitored that i knew they were entitlted to seeing that i went on yahoo. the difference here was they went on yahoo AS ME and executed actions as me.

You have a work email that you use, right? If they can USE your Yahoo email (which you view on your work computer), what's to say they can't USE your work email (which you also view on your work computer).

 

[Kappo]

Who did they send it to? If he sent it to himself, then you might not get any reaction from people. If he sent it to someone else, then it is possible for you do something. Sending mail on your behalf without your permission is illegal and unethical. Even if there is no damage done, your company will probably want to keep it quiet. That kind of thing getting out in the open is more damaging to them from a PR perspective than from a financial one.

 

[Injury]

I just skimmed through most of the posts on the first page, but I'd have to disagree with a lot of them.

Yes, it may be a company owned workstation, but he has an entitlement to his privacy. It would be one underhanded thing to read an email that was open on his desktop, it's a totally different thing to read the email and foward it on to people within the company.

It doesn't matter who paid for the workstation. Yahoo mail is CLEARLY not work, unless he works for Yahoo, or his company relies on Yahoo mail accounts to do their daily business, and thus it would NEVER hold up in court that they had the right to go through his personal email account and read anything, let alone fowarding it.

Many legal cases have already validated that email can be considered like real mail, and while there is no punishment for it that is defined, it has held up that opening and reading email that wasn't sent to you is just like pulling mail out of your neighbor's mailbox and reading it.

Truth be told, unless it is well defined in your company's usage policy, they probably don't even have the right to violate your privacy by packet sniffing.

Some of you are just plain off your rockers.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: TreyRandom

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: hans007
so far,... i have been told to go home and not come back and that they are paying me my entire 2 weeks notice period to stay home. the vice president of HR said that i was completely in the wrong and they completely had every right to search my yahoo mail, and since they determined i was not a security risk (their justification of looking at my email in the first place) that they deleted the email and now it was all "ok".

Sounds like they are now trying to cover their own ass in order not to get sued now. Even if you believe that the company is "in the right" (which I still think they aren't) to read through your personal e-mails while you are away from your desk, remember that, they used your account without authorization to forward the email to themselves.

You are wrong. Anything you do on THEIR computer is THEIR business. He is a fool for doing his PRIVATE business on a company computer. I'll bet he even signed an agreement stating that he is aware of this fact. Try and sue them. Good luck with that.

If he sent a personal e-mail using Yahoo or read an e-mail on his Yahoo account and the company's monitoring software picked up the contents, that's FINE. I'm not disputing that! I don't think anyone in this thread is disputing that. But what the company did was actively used his account while he was away, without his permission, to obtain personal information about him, in this case the offer letter from the prospective company. Good luck trying to convince a judge that leaving your Yahoo account logged on while away from your desk implies permission and consent to search and "seizure" (copying the e-mail by forward).

You're missing the point, and don't understand the law. When he logged onto his account using their equipment he opened himself up for their search. They have every right to see what is being done with their equipment, and what is being brought into the workplace. If you have a locker at work, guess what, they can search that anytime as well.

You are confusing searches of your property versus searches of the companies property. Two entirely different things.

Say a company searches your locker and you have your debit card and pin number in there. Is it ok for them to also search through your checking account for suspicious history?

How would they even do that?

What you guys are trying to argue that a person (in this case a company) doesn't have the right to search their own computer. Kinda crazy thinking if you ask me.

They didn't search their own computer. They didn't search through files on their computer and find this information. They used the OP's credentials to access his personal information on another computer via the Internet. He made it easy for them by leaving the account logged in, but I think it is a very important distinction that they did not get this information off their computer or by monitoring their network, they got it by accessing his password-protected account on a server they do not own.

Actually, they didn't use the OP's credentials. As you stated, the OP used the OPs credentials and left his e-mail sitting there, unsecured. He left his account sitting open on the company's computer. That's yet another important distinction. They didn't log in to his account using his username and password.

A cookie is the OP credentials.

Right.

It's similar to an open wireless router - just because it doesn't require any effort to "break in," that doesn't make it legal.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: NL5

By him logging on to his account on their computer, the data was on their computer. Why is that so hard to understand.

Go to court. Let me know how it works out for you. Been there. You will lose. Guaranteed.

Good luck.

Please give details of the similar situation you've been in (I assume you were on the other side).

 

[KevinH]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: her209
How do you own data that is stored on someone else's network?

It traversed the company network, therefore they own it. It is stored on a company machine, therefore they own it.

The feds are very clear about this stuff.

What happens if a bank account was left logged in?

 

[hans007]

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
BTW...what kind of a software engineer is that lax with computer security that you just walk away from a open desktop.

Do you use four letter passwords too?

i really think that almost anyone could have made that mistake. basically i went to the kitchen which is NEXT to my cube to get a coke. on the way back a coworker stopped me to try to convince me to stay and we went to a conference room to talk.

as much as you guys seem to think that i'm a fool for not locking my desktop , i'm definitely sure you yourselves have forgotten to lock your desktop plenty of times.

i mean... i really like the whole.. i am holier than thou because you made one mistake (which still doesnt forgive anything else that happened) but i am willing to bet tons of you leave your desktop unlocked and say get a drink and that that has happened before.

 

[TreyRandom]

Originally posted by: hans007
as much as you guys seem to think that i'm a fool for not locking my desktop , i'm definitely sure you yourselves have forgotten to lock your desktop plenty of times.

Sure I have...

...but not while my personal e-mail is open.

I'm not holier than thou. Just more careful than thou. But hey, it's no big deal... what are they gonna do, fire you?

 

[FreshPrince]

don't be too harsh on the IT guy..he was only doing his job.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: her209
Wow, just because the computer belongs to them doesn't give them the all authority to do whatever they want. I'd consult a lawyer. Its clearly a violation of business ethics.

yea, and then what? what in the hell is a lawyer going to do?

 

[FreshPrince]

Originally posted by: hans007

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
BTW...what kind of a software engineer is that lax with computer security that you just walk away from a open desktop.

Do you use four letter passwords too?

i really think that almost anyone could have made that mistake. basically i went to the kitchen which is NEXT to my cube to get a coke. on the way back a coworker stopped me to try to convince me to stay and we went to a conference room to talk.

as much as you guys seem to think that i'm a fool for not locking my desktop , i'm definitely sure you yourselves have forgotten to lock your desktop plenty of times.

i mean... i really like the whole.. i am holier than thou because you made one mistake (which still doesnt forgive anything else that happened) but i am willing to bet tons of you leave your desktop unlocked and say get a drink and that that has happened before.

they make this bluetooth device that automatically locks your workstation if you walk away more than 6 feet. it's a pretty cool device.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Lifted

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: bctbct
dude you are no legal expert on this and should not make absolute statements, this is a gray area.

No. But I do work in the field and clear most of my stuff through legal first. Couple that with scores of conferences, training, whatever on what is and is not acceptible I believe I have more then an educated opinion.

It's not fuzzy.

So you think that anything a company sees or hears about you, it can use to access your personal information?

If you order meds from a pharmacy online during your lunch hour or allowed internet usage period, you're saying the company can then log in to that pharmacy since they discovered your username and password, view your entire order history, and forward that info to anyone they feel like because they now OWN that info?

Like you I also think the law is not fuzzy on things like this. But the fact of the matter is that this is HIGHLY illegal and you seriously need to attend some more conferences and training sessions on the matter.

what exactly does "Highly illegal" mean????

 

[jakedeez]

Originally posted by: sixone
You left it open, on a company-owned workstation. You lose.

 

[zinfamous]

Sorry if I'm repeating something here, but the fact that they sent an IT guy over to your workstation while you were away implies intent on their part. Seems like they wanted him to get into your workstation, whether or not you were logged-on, and access your information--whatever it is that he could find. Pretty messed-up, in my mind.

 

[NL5]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: TreyRandom

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: hans007
so far,... i have been told to go home and not come back and that they are paying me my entire 2 weeks notice period to stay home. the vice president of HR said that i was completely in the wrong and they completely had every right to search my yahoo mail, and since they determined i was not a security risk (their justification of looking at my email in the first place) that they deleted the email and now it was all "ok".

Sounds like they are now trying to cover their own ass in order not to get sued now. Even if you believe that the company is "in the right" (which I still think they aren't) to read through your personal e-mails while you are away from your desk, remember that, they used your account without authorization to forward the email to themselves.

You are wrong. Anything you do on THEIR computer is THEIR business. He is a fool for doing his PRIVATE business on a company computer. I'll bet he even signed an agreement stating that he is aware of this fact. Try and sue them. Good luck with that.

If he sent a personal e-mail using Yahoo or read an e-mail on his Yahoo account and the company's monitoring software picked up the contents, that's FINE. I'm not disputing that! I don't think anyone in this thread is disputing that. But what the company did was actively used his account while he was away, without his permission, to obtain personal information about him, in this case the offer letter from the prospective company. Good luck trying to convince a judge that leaving your Yahoo account logged on while away from your desk implies permission and consent to search and "seizure" (copying the e-mail by forward).

You're missing the point, and don't understand the law. When he logged onto his account using their equipment he opened himself up for their search. They have every right to see what is being done with their equipment, and what is being brought into the workplace. If you have a locker at work, guess what, they can search that anytime as well.

You are confusing searches of your property versus searches of the companies property. Two entirely different things.

Say a company searches your locker and you have your debit card and pin number in there. Is it ok for them to also search through your checking account for suspicious history?

How would they even do that?

What you guys are trying to argue that a person (in this case a company) doesn't have the right to search their own computer. Kinda crazy thinking if you ask me.

They didn't search their own computer. They didn't search through files on their computer and find this information. They used the OP's credentials to access his personal information on another computer via the Internet. He made it easy for them by leaving the account logged in, but I think it is a very important distinction that they did not get this information off their computer or by monitoring their network, they got it by accessing his password-protected account on a server they do not own.

Actually, they didn't use the OP's credentials. As you stated, the OP used the OPs credentials and left his e-mail sitting there, unsecured. He left his account sitting open on the company's computer. That's yet another important distinction. They didn't log in to his account using his username and password.

A cookie is the OP credentials.

Right.

It's similar to an open wireless router - just because it doesn't require any effort to "break in," that doesn't make it legal.

If you log onto someone else's wireless router, even if unsecured, that would be illegal. That has nothing to do with the case here though.

The quote above stated what I was trying to say better than I did. When he logged onto his account he brought that account into work. It then becomes fair game. Sorry to say, but that's the way it is.

As far as my experience with this sort of thing - I was working in a Union shop, and we had something very similiar to this happen (I had to defend a co-worker in court as I was the standing comittee chairman)- went through a lot of research, talked to our lawyers - was basically told we were gonna lose (by our own lawyers). Due to the way the union worked, had to take it to court anyway. Long story short - ANYTHING you do on a companies computer is their business.

Besides, I'll bet he signed a computer usage agreement - they are usually pretty straight forward - and quite comprehensive.

 

[KLin]

Let this be a lesson to everyone. CTRL-ALT-DEL then K before leaving your workstation. :thumbsup:

 

[her209]

Any updates from the OP???

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: KLin
Let this be a lesson to everyone. CTRL-ALT-DEL then K before leaving your workstation. :thumbsup:

Windows Key + L works as well.