We've gone solar! - Now with pics! Now with CAD Drawings!

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Rubycon

Madame President
Aug 10, 2005
17,768
485
126
n00b question, what does 4.68KW mean? Your charts say you're getting ~2kWh. Is it only half working?

4.68kW is 4,680 watts. That could light up 46 100 watt light bulbs.
Power is sold in kW/h. 1000 watts for sixty minutes is 1kW/h. Ten 100W bulbs turned on for an hour would be 1kW/h. This is often sold/referred as a unit of electricity. Nickel for some, dollar for some depending on generation/transmission/distribution costs, etc.
 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,422
8
81
Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm terrible understanding KWH. Is 31 kwh basically able to power a 1300 watt home 24/7, assuming batteries etc

31kWh means 31,000 watts for 1 hour, or 15,500W for 2 hours, or 1,300W for 23.8 hours, yep.

n00b question, what does 4.68KW mean? Your charts say you're getting ~2kWh. Is it only half working?

I was wondering the same thing, though I realize conditions have to be perfect to get rated output, it seems like the peaks during the middle of the day should be higher. Could be a lot of things though.. perhaps the roof angle isn't ideal, or that side of the roof doesn't face due south..
 
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speg

Diamond Member
Apr 30, 2000
3,681
3
76
www.speg.com
4.68kW is 4,680 watts. That could light up 46 100 watt light bulbs.
Power is sold in kW/h. 1000 watts for sixty minutes is 1kW/h. Ten 100W bulbs turned on for an hour would be 1kW/h. This is often sold/referred as a unit of electricity. Nickel for some, dollar for some depending on generation/transmission/distribution costs, etc.

But if this system is capable of generating 4.68 kW shouldn't it be generating 4.68 kW/h at it's best? I have a headache.
 

rcpratt

Lifer
Jul 2, 2009
10,433
110
116
There are two bars for every hour, so you have to add two in order to find the peak generation in kW. At peak, it was about 2.1 kWh (in 30 minutes), 2.1 kWh + 2.1 kWh = 4.2 kWh in one hour, or 4.2 kW. Pretty close to its rated power.

For the whole day, they generated 31.89 kWh, divide by the 11 hours it generated to find an average generation rate of 2.899 kW.
 
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Rubycon

Madame President
Aug 10, 2005
17,768
485
126
But if this system is capable of generating 4.68 kW shouldn't it be generating 4.68 kW/h at it's best? I have a headache.

It depends on a lot of things, namely the rating of the panel area vs. insolation (sunlight) received for the sample period. Actual demand and how it's wired in, etc. During the peak time of the day many people are not home and thus actual house demand may be below the output of the system, etc.

There are two bars for every hour, so you have to add two in order to find the peak generation in kW. At peak, it was about 2.1 kWh (in 30 minutes), 2.1 kWh + 2.1 kWh = 4.2 kWh for one hour, or 4.2 kW. Pretty close to its rated power.

Good observation! It would be nice if they had a raw data option. The monitoring system at the site probably has this ability if the owner has not locked it down.
 
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speg

Diamond Member
Apr 30, 2000
3,681
3
76
www.speg.com
There are two bars for every hour, so you have to add two in order to find the peak generation in kW. At peak, it was about 2.1 kWh (in 30 minutes), 2.1 kWh + 2.1 kWh = 4.2 kWh for one hour, or 4.2 kW. Pretty close to its rated power.

Haha, duh!
 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,422
8
81
There are two bars for every hour, so you have to add two in order to find the peak generation in kW. At peak, it was about 2.1 kWh (in 30 minutes), 2.1 kWh + 2.1 kWh = 4.2 kWh in one hour, or 4.2 kW. Pretty close to its rated power.

For the whole day, they generated 31.89 kWh, divide by the 11 hours it generated to find an average generation rate of 2.899 kW.

Ahhh. This makes sense, though I have no idea why they set it up like that.. Seems unnecessarily confusing. I would rather just have hourly rates.
 

rcpratt

Lifer
Jul 2, 2009
10,433
110
116
Agreed, it is pretty weird. Showing the rates (kW) would make far more sense than showing the energy generated (kWh).
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Actually I'd be curious to know as well, how you deal with snow, do you have to constantly go shovel it off? Are the solar panels strong enough to witstand hail, or even walking on them? Do you still need to redo the shingles every 25 years?

1. Solar panels produce heat and will usually melt the snow eventually as some light still gets to them. I am in the south so I am not sure of the specifics but I know for a fact snow usually isn't as big of an issue as you think. Besides, they produce much less in the winter naturally so missing a few days isn't a big deal.

2. Yes, any decent panel is hail tested. You can usually get the specific panels hail test from their data sheet but its almost always up there with your shingles. You "can" walk on them but its not a good idea.

3. Yes, your roof will still deteriorate and need replacement.
 
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Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,422
8
81
1. Solar panels produce heat and will usually melt the snow eventually as some light still gets to them. I am in the south so I am not sure of the specifics but I know for a fact snow usually isn't as big of an issue as you think. Besides, they produce much less in the winter naturally so missing a few days isn't a big deal.

Uh, what? Solar cells do not produce heat... lol. Maybe a slight amount when producing electricity due to internal resistance, but that isn't happening if it's covered in snow.

Snow will most certainly block panels.

A house down the street has an array, and when it was snowy I always thought that it must suck, and that someone should invent panel wipers(like windshield wipers). lol
 

Rubycon

Madame President
Aug 10, 2005
17,768
485
126
I believe he's referring to heating caused by the sun. Heck the sun does not even have to be out (overcast day) and snow will melt on the roadways (if it's not too thick). Same could apply to the panels since they are dark.

If this would be a problem a rhime heater similar to what's used on anemometers could be employed. A layer of glass over the main lens could also be fitted with wire heaters like the rear windows of cars. This would be activated when freezing conditions prevail, etc.
 

killster1

Banned
Mar 15, 2007
6,208
475
126
i wonder if it keeps your house cooler in the summer due to the sun not actually hitting your roof =P i have few panels that heat pool and water heater i need to do this too, wonder how long they will last and if kids throwing rocks would come into play
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,518
5,340
136
Wow, nice OP! Thanks for sharing details & pix! And props for going green :awe:
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Uh, what? Solar cells do not produce heat... lol. Maybe a slight amount when producing electricity due to internal resistance, but that isn't happening if it's covered in snow.

Yes they do, albeit its a rather small amount compared to the heat they gain from the sun itself.

Thermodynamic efficiency limit

Solar cells operate as quantum energy conversion devices, and are therefore subject to the "thermodynamic efficiency limit". Photons with an energy below the band gap of the absorber material cannot generate a hole-electron pair, and so their energy is not converted to useful output and only generates heat if absorbed. For photons with an energy above the band gap energy, only a fraction of the energy above the band gap can be converted to useful output. When a photon of greater energy is absorbed, the excess energy above the band gap is converted to kinetic energy of the carrier combination. The excess kinetic energy is converted to heat through phonon interactions as the kinetic energy of the carriers slows to equilibrium velocity.

Solar cells with multiple band gap absorber materials are able to more efficiently convert the solar spectrum. By using multiple band gaps, the solar spectrum may be broken down into smaller bins where the thermodynamic efficiency limit is higher for each bin.


Snow will most certainly block panels.

Of course it will, but depending on the amount light can still penetrate the snow. while I was attending a seminar in NJ, I have personally seen panels working with snow covering them, obviously it was less than ideal but they still worked. Furthermore, the sun heats up the entire panel rather quickly helping to melt the snow.

I saw a paper on reflected light through snow (I think, don't hold me to it) that I will try to find if I get a chance. I am a southerner so snow isn't something I have real world experience with but I still had to go over it during some classes many moons ago.

A house down the street has an array, and when it was snowy I always thought that it must suck, and that someone should invent panel wipers(like windshield wipers). lol

Like I said, solar panels produce much less power in the winter than in the summer. It is far better to spend resources to optimize summer output than winter output except in very specific circumstances like some off grid installations.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
I believe he's referring to heating caused by the sun. Heck the sun does not even have to be out (overcast day) and snow will melt on the roadways (if it's not too thick). Same could apply to the panels since they are dark.

If this would be a problem a rhime heater similar to what's used on anemometers could be employed. A layer of glass over the main lens could also be fitted with wire heaters like the rear windows of cars. This would be activated when freezing conditions prevail, etc.

You could do more harm than good. The wires would cause shading (doesn't matter how small) of the modules which significantly reduces the output of the panels. Making matters worse, typical installations using central inverters wire a lot of panels together in series. The inverters MPPT only sees the string of panels, so a single panel being partially shaded can significantly reduce the output of the entire string of panels. I guess you could run the wire in-between the individual modules on the panel but I would think they would have to be on the module or really close to prevent shading from occurring at some point.

The shade from a single powerline can reduce output by more than 75%.

You could probably add some sort of heating element around the frame of the panel but I would guess it just isn't worth the added cost, complexity, and power use for the minimal gain in power production.

You could also increase the tilt of the panel so its harder for the snow to stick but this decreases performance in the summer months, when you produce the most electricity.
 

Adul

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
32,999
44
91
danny.tangtam.com
Adul, by leasing, do you have any issues with having to cover damages caused by nature? In other words, if you get a big old hail storm that pounds the panels half to death, or a wind storm tears them up, does the leasing company come fix them, or does it have to be covered by your home owner's policy?

I'm in north Texas, beginning of tornado alley, and while we don't see as much activity as, say, Oklahoma and points further north, we have had some hail storms and straight line winds that were pretty hairy!

I'd be interested in finding out, too, how often they'd check to see if one of the panels is not functioning correctly, or has dropped off in efficiency? Is that something your monitoring system checks? And how bad off does a panel have to be before they come out and replace it? Also, do the panels need to be washed down from time to time, to keep dust/grime build up from lowering the efficiency?

I'm a first time home owner (just closed 3 weeks ago! :awe: ), and this sort of system, with the lease, interests me.


Home owners insurance will cover that. We increased our coverage with allstate on that. Granted this is kind of a new area for insurance so they said it will be handle on a case-by-case basis. They valued out solar install at 29k.

As for monitoring they monitor the system and if they notice a drop off they come take care of it. So if a panel goes bad they replace it. This should show pretty easy in the actual voltage as it would drop a certain amount. There is also the guarantee that our system will generate a certain amount a power in a given month. if it is below that target we get credited back some money.

I do have to hose off the panels on occasion to keep the dust levels down. As for hail it is tempered glass, and they mention it has to be larger hail before it would start damaging the panels.

grats on the new house Welcome to new home ownership.
 

Rubycon

Madame President
Aug 10, 2005
17,768
485
126
The shade from a single powerline can reduce output by more than 75%.

You probably have the decimal two places to the right there. Even a 0.75% decrease is stretching things a bit! The wires are TINY!

They also make glass that has no wires and heats up too.

Of course the OP probably rarely sees snow.

The drawings look good. They do have a confidentiality notice though - hope you got permission before posting them as links.

On the specification of encapsulation it does mention 3.2mm tempered glass. This should withstand most weather (hail) conditions although I'd rather see 10+mm thickness in areas that can get grapefruit sized hail. If that cover glass is shattered the panel is toast.
 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,422
8
81
Looks like you saw some clouds today, 10kWh lower than yesterday. Oh well, such is nature.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Pretty cool but it seems you'll only break even give or take some small amount and with a lot of hassle. I like solar I just wish it was better. I have a good house for it, with a large surface area of roof facing uninhibited southern sky although it is cloudy here sometimes
 
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