What can we agree on regarding health care?

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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
For better or for worse, America has had universal health care ever since EMTLA was passed in 1986. The problem ever since has been how to fund it.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
What is preventing companies from marketing the old EpiPen design? Or from marketing pre-loaded syringes? I'll give you a hint: it can be spelled with three letters.

Drugs and medical devices (even generic) need testing and regulatory compliance for the FDA to deem them safe. This, of course, takes time and money. Thus, when the margins are low, people live with a single manufacturer. This has proven to be a new exploit (e.g. epipen, Daraprim).

It isn't inherently an FDA problem. They're just doing their job in protecting the public from a drug or device that hasn't been adequately tested.

A simple solution would be legislation to set limits on price fluctuation for single supplier medications.

Likely this would cause manufacturers to price slightly higher, but that will also open up more margin for competitors to get in the game. Still, there are R&D costs to develop the manufacturing and marketing costs to compete. Thus, a free market might not be best for consumers.

But it could help close the loophole, and also help prevent drug shortages.

Worth it? I'm not sure. It's telling that this doesn't happen more often. Pharma is not well thought of on the ethics front, but I don't think their relative kindness here is just for optics (perhaps to keep regulation farther away). But personally I think event these ruthless businesses still care about the general public health good.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,674
24,977
136
You seen the US government try and run something without piles of beauracracy?

I'm sorry are you operating under the delusion that private insurance isn't piles of bureaucracy designed to minimize how much is actually paid out?
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
You seen the US government try and run something without piles of beauracracy?

A) I think you should do some reading on the single payer concept because it doesn't seem like you understand what it is and does.

B) In Canada the provinces design and run their own health insurance plans. The feds main role is to ensure that they all meet minimum standards and portability along with providing roughly 25% of funding for the provincial health plans. I'm sure that the US is capable of doing something similar.

(Edited for spelling.)
 
Last edited:
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
15,951
136
I had a thought while walking my dog. Would forcing providers to resell their networks and the "space" work. Similar to what was done in telecom with long distance?
For example lets say a typical 35 healthy year old costs $300 per year to provide services to and the insurer bills them $700 per year. Allow a 3rd party reseller to buy an account for a nearly identical person for $330 then they handle billing the customer.
Could something like this work or did it only work in telecom because the costs a pretty fixed.
 

Mandres

Senior member
Jun 8, 2011
944
58
91
Another big part of the equation, to me, is eliminating the artificial restrictions on the supply of healthcare providers. I work for a 400+/- employee organization, which operates an on-site clinic. The clinic employs a full-time nurse practitioner, and an RN. These two professionals provide 90% of the healthcare services for our entire workforce and their families. The prescriptions the NP writes are signed off by a local doc, and that's about the extent of his involvement.

You don't need 8 years of expensive medical school to effectively provide most of the healthcare that people need. The military trains expert-level emergency care providers every day. You don't need 8 years of medical school to be an effective ER physician. These are facts.

It's time to break the AMA cartel on the supply of doctors, and watch the prices fall.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
6,572
7,823
136
If the Republicans were smart, small changes to ACA could be done that are consistent with what Republicans can actually sell to their base:

The individual mandate can be formed into something that can work. do away with penalties and enrollment periods. Instead, pre-existing conditions are not covered for some amount of time proportional to how long you had been without insurance (min 6 months, max 12 months). That would discourage some people from signing up only after they are sick since they would have to wait a long time to get care. Switching from one plan to another should still be done with enrollment periods rather than at any time.

The coverage requirements can be reduced to make the program more feasible. I personally am fine with the level of coverage, but many people resent it and are electing representatives to fight it. Certain treatments (birth control) are lightening rods for critics regardless of their cost, so removing them means the program has a better chance of success. Not everyone needs free preventive care or free birth control either, though some do. If your plan covers all proven technologies and there are no maximum payouts, and your out of pocket maximum isn't awful, you've got pretty decent to not awful coverage. have small co-pays for preventive services and birth control. As long as that's transparent and consumers know what they are buying.

Before the ACA, insurers would sell "catastrophic coverage" policies, which would sometimes refer to as "falling off a mountain" coverage, they didn't cover everyday medical stuff (like preventative care), but they'd keep you from going bankrupt if you were a 26 year old who, say, liked mountain climbing, and had an accident. But, under the ACA, all individual policies had to cover a broader range of things, and some Insurance companies killed off the catastrophic policies.

But, it seems the Republicans goal with this bill is not to have a bill that passes, it's to have a bill that fails that they can blame on someone else (Democrats) and use to win reelection; "if you want to repeal Obamacare, we need more Republicans elected".

Or: "We tried to pass a bill that would replace Obamacare with something better, but they blocked us, and now (insert administrative/regulatory sabotage of Obamacare here) Obamacare is imploding, just like we said it would! So totally "not our fault".
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,112
318
126
Drugs and medical devices (even generic) need testing and regulatory compliance for the FDA to deem them safe. This, of course, takes time and money. Thus, when the margins are low, people live with a single manufacturer. This has proven to be a new exploit (e.g. epipen, Daraprim).

It isn't inherently an FDA problem. They're just doing their job in protecting the public from a drug or device that hasn't been adequately tested.

A simple solution would be legislation to set limits on price fluctuation for single supplier medications.

Likely this would cause manufacturers to price slightly higher, but that will also open up more margin for competitors to get in the game. Still, there are R&D costs to develop the manufacturing and marketing costs to compete. Thus, a free market might not be best for consumers.

But it could help close the loophole, and also help prevent drug shortages.

Worth it? I'm not sure. It's telling that this doesn't happen more often. Pharma is not well thought of on the ethics front, but I don't think their relative kindness here is just for optics (perhaps to keep regulation farther away). But personally I think event these ruthless businesses still care about the general public health good.

The margins are NOT low for the EpiPen; this should be obvious by the fact it continues to increase in price despite being comprised of a few simple materials that have been cheaply available for decades. The profit margins are at least three orders of magnitude. Any successful drug has incredibly high profit margins, as evidenced by pharmaceutical companies having the highest profit margins of any business (outside of maybe finance), and that is even their public platform argued on the basis that they require loss-leaders to make up for failed drugs. Daraprim is another horrible example; it's an extremely cheap drug that has been around since the 1950s, yet because the FDA arbitrarily chooses to sell marketing rights to individual companies granting them indefinite monopolies, they're allowed to hike up prices to absurd amounts. Adding price caps does nothing except to legitimize the idea that government and corporation should be allowed to collude to maximize PR and profit respectively.

The idea that an incredibly simple and out-of-patent device like an EpiPen needs years and years of evaluation before it can be safely used is absurd when we don't have nearly as stringent of standards for, say, food which can just as easily pose health issues. Getting a generic Daraprim pill on the market should be hardly any more complex than chucking a few samples into a GC/MS to check purity. R&D costs are a meme when we're talking about drugs that have recouped their initial costs by billions, and when countries like India have no problem setting up factories on the cheap.
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,112
318
126
Another big part of the equation, to me, is eliminating the artificial restrictions on the supply of healthcare providers. I work for a 400+/- employee organization, which operates an on-site clinic. The clinic employs a full-time nurse practitioner, and an RN. These two professionals provide 90% of the healthcare services for our entire workforce and their families. The prescriptions the NP writes are signed off by a local doc, and that's about the extent of his involvement.

You don't need 8 years of expensive medical school to effectively provide most of the healthcare that people need. The military trains expert-level emergency care providers every day. You don't need 8 years of medical school to be an effective ER physician. These are facts.

It's time to break the AMA cartel on the supply of doctors, and watch the prices fall.

Totally agreed with this too. Our medical system is full of corruption and collusion between the private and public sector. I think Americans fall into a trap where they're willing to accept that diminishing returns exist for most things, but when it comes to their own health that all falls apart and anything less than THE BEST is unacceptable. As a result, the AMA and FDA are more than happy to spin a yarn about needing the most stringent requirements lest quality fall by the slightest smidgen, because ONE DEATH IS TOO MANY and yada yada. We could open up so many aspects of our medical system to competition.
 
Reactions: Maxima1

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
16,282
3,904
75
The main thing I want in health care legislation is a rule that health insurance companies have to charge the same premiums for the same benefits, ignoring conditions patients have no control over. Such conditions should include gender and age. Probably they should be able to charge differently for current smoking, drinking, etc., and also family bundling. I'm not sure about weight.
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,112
318
126
I'm not sure about weight.

Why? Obesity is hardly any better than smoking, and it's a tiny percentage of lardasses that can legitimately claim they have a hormonal issue. Car insurance companies already discriminate against men on the basis that men are more likely to get into bad accidents, health insurance should absolutely discriminate as much as possible.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,788
49,460
136
Why? Obesity is hardly any better than smoking, and it's a tiny percentage of lardasses that can legitimately claim they have a hormonal issue. Car insurance companies already discriminate against men on the basis that men are more likely to get into bad accidents, health insurance should absolutely discriminate as much as possible.

Well then it should be far more important to go back to discriminating on pre-existing conditions than obesity or anything else. Is that correct?
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,522
759
146
Another big part of the equation, to me, is eliminating the artificial restrictions on the supply of healthcare providers. I work for a 400+/- employee organization, which operates an on-site clinic. The clinic employs a full-time nurse practitioner, and an RN. These two professionals provide 90% of the healthcare services for our entire workforce and their families. The prescriptions the NP writes are signed off by a local doc, and that's about the extent of his involvement.

You don't need 8 years of expensive medical school to effectively provide most of the healthcare that people need. The military trains expert-level emergency care providers every day. You don't need 8 years of medical school to be an effective ER physician. These are facts.

It's time to break the AMA cartel on the supply of doctors, and watch the prices fall.

Something similar to this is the push that made it so that a pharmacist needs a doctorates degree.
 
Dec 10, 2005
24,427
7,345
136
If the Republicans were smart, small changes to ACA could be done that are consistent with what Republicans can actually sell to their base:

The individual mandate can be formed into something that can work. do away with penalties and enrollment periods. Instead, pre-existing conditions are not covered for some amount of time proportional to how long you had been without insurance (min 6 months, max 12 months). That would discourage some people from signing up only after they are sick since they would have to wait a long time to get care. Switching from one plan to another should still be done with enrollment periods rather than at any time.

The coverage requirements can be reduced to make the program more feasible. I personally am fine with the level of coverage, but many people resent it and are electing representatives to fight it. Certain treatments (birth control) are lightening rods for critics regardless of their cost, so removing them means the program has a better chance of success. Not everyone needs free preventive care or free birth control either, though some do. If your plan covers all proven technologies and there are no maximum payouts, and your out of pocket maximum isn't awful, you've got pretty decent to not awful coverage. have small co-pays for preventive services and birth control. As long as that's transparent and consumers know what they are buying.

Before the ACA, insurers would sell "catastrophic coverage" policies, which would sometimes refer to as "falling off a mountain" coverage, they didn't cover everyday medical stuff (like preventative care), but they'd keep you from going bankrupt if you were a 26 year old who, say, liked mountain climbing, and had an accident. But, under the ACA, all individual policies had to cover a broader range of things, and some Insurance companies killed off the catastrophic policies.

But, it seems the Republicans goal with this bill is not to have a bill that passes, it's to have a bill that fails that they can blame on someone else (Democrats) and use to win reelection; "if you want to repeal Obamacare, we need more Republicans elected".

Or: "We tried to pass a bill that would replace Obamacare with something better, but they blocked us, and now (insert administrative/regulatory sabotage of Obamacare here) Obamacare is imploding, just like we said it would! So totally "not our fault".
Those skimpy policies sucked pre-ACA, despite what you might think. They also had maximum payout caps - end up in the ICU for a few days, congratulations, you just hit your cap and are now facing medical bankruptcy. Or your doctors in the hospital weren't covered, only the hospital was covered, etc...
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,112
318
126
Well then it should be far more important to go back to discriminating on pre-existing conditions than obesity or anything else. Is that correct?

I can see the sympathetic argument that those with medical issues beyond their control should be given support to get them on a level playing field with those born healthy. People that eat 6000 calories of carbs and fat each day have no excuse.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
I can see the sympathetic argument that those with medical issues beyond their control should be given support to get them on a level playing field with those born healthy. People that eat 6000 calories of carbs and fat each day have no excuse.

Mental health. Think about it.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,788
49,460
136
I can see the sympathetic argument that those with medical issues beyond their control should be given support to get them on a level playing field with those born healthy. People that eat 6000 calories of carbs and fat each day have no excuse.

Why would that make any more sense from an insurance perspective?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I would actually go the opposite way, where everyone has universal catastrophic coverage to cover things like cancer and then everything else is paid for by HSAs or whatever. The primary cost driver in US health care is not the routine stuff, it's the end of life care, the cancer care, etc. This is where single payer can really shine if we let it.
Surprisingly, I think that makes a lot of sense. One of my pet peeves is calling something insurance and then expecting it to pay for things we know are going to happen. Insurance only works when it's reserved for large but rare expenses. Otherwise, it has to cost the sum of the expenses plus the overhead, making it a net loss.

That said, there still needs to be some sort of Medicaid/Medicare for those too destitute to afford basic routine care and those past their earning years.
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,112
318
126
Why would that make any more sense from an insurance perspective?

Not sure what you're getting at. I think insurance companies in general would prefer to turn away anyone they wanted to for the purpose of minimizing pay-outs. "Making sense" from their perspective isn't really a factor when we're talking about insurance companies being forced to do things they may not want to. The big distinction between preexisting conditions and obesity/smoking/etc is that people don't choose to suddenly develop a brain tumor at age 10, and dis-incentivizing those with such conditions is just another way of saying "Sorry, you have to die" compared to "Sorry, you have to show that you actually care about your own health before we care about yours".
 
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