What did we do right to create a great middle class and what did we do wrong to destroy it?

[Jhhnn]

They're getting paid significantly over their marginal product. For some reason you think it's fair to tell everyone else there isn't money anymore, while inflating special interests....

Officer retirement is risky because the path is not guaranteed and you are competing with smarter people. If they kicked you out a number of years later, you might have been better off just being enlisted depending on your officer position.

Military retirement, compensation, disability, etc. is significant.
Ex. https://www.cbo.gov/publication/43574

Yes. Lots of people are suckers and leave. People make bad choices. Some leave because they did hit a sort of lottery by the way. Probably about 80% of military disability payments are utter bullshit. You can get 10% for "exercise induced asthma" and then 60% for "depression related to it" and then they go off onto doing something else, for example.

WTF are you going on about?

 

[Maxima1]

WTF are you going on about?

You originally posted to say "so what?" because it's "small". Why should one sector be more privileged than the other?

Ex. of one of the reforms to align more with civilian world https://www.cbo.gov/budget-options/2018/54748

The sectors should be similar. It's similar to unionization. You either go widespread (albeit unionization in government is inane) or none.

 

[Amol S.]

Wouldn't a good solution be the following, all being implemented as a whole?

* People at the time of retirement, in the top 11% at total wealth with assets included, are not eligible for Social Security benefits.

How this solves the problem : Stops giving the top 11% more money, as they already have a lot of money. More benefits go to the bottom 89%.

* People who are in the the top 11% at total wealth with assets included, are not eligible for medicare.

How this solves the problem: The government stops wasting money by paying their medical expenses (those people already have the money to pay for it.) It also mean more benefits go to bottom 89%.

* People who have graduated from a private or public college or university, with any degree and level of study, and do not obtain a job, open up their own business, or go for more education, within a 2 year time frame after graduation, must pay a monthly fee to the federal government, named "wasting a college seat". The reason behind this name is because, by the person doing it they are wasting an opportunity from someone who could have actually gone to that college and actually got a job and actually have done something for society.

The montly fee starts from the month after the 2 year time frame ends. The cost of the fee each month is (((total scholarships and grants received during education - already paid monthly fees) / 120) + defaulted monthly fee payments with a 10% interest). The monthly fees stop the month after the person has a job, started a business or is furthering their education in a accredited education program, OR after ten years if they have not defaulted on any monthly fee. If the person has defaulted from a payment and gets a job, starts a business, or furthers their education, their defaulted payment gets cleared.

How this solves the problem : More funds for government to give to the needy people, and the funds are coming from those who do not want to do anything in life as well as taken a educational opportunity from someone because of them not wanting to do anything in life.

* Every illegal immigrant that is being deported must pay a tax (in the form of a fine), for themselves (and for their children (if any accompanied them)), of a minimum of $100K (each, if more than one person), regardless of the age.

* No longer is any person holding a F Type (Student Visas) or international students part of the STEM program, are eligible for filling a FAFSA. Thus they are no longer eligible for scholarships.

* Placing a hold on giving H1-B1 visas, to those that never had the visa, in job sectors that have a shortage in hired positions (large amounts of unfilled job positions). This is like the Doctors, Engineers, IT, .... fields.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Ignoring the military thing for a moment is this list another way to say, INFRASTRUCTURE SPENDING??

The infrastructure was built to fight WW2 or maintain a technological advantage over the Soviets.

Take the interstate system. It was seen as a necessary component of national defense, which is why interstate numbers sit on shield icons. Eisenhower expanded the system after witnessing the effectiveness of the German autobahn system.

It had the inadvertent effect of accelerating the development and demand for suburbs, and shifted a preference from rail to private automobiles.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Not necessarily saying cause and effect but here are some things we had/did

Middle class expansion

strong unions
GI bill
higher marginal tax rates
heavy infrastructure spending (military)


Middle class shrinkage

401K invented
tax cuts for the rich
union busting
financial deregulation

Beginning with Regan making money off money became incentivized. Manufacturing things became de-incentivized.

I agree with your expansion list, as those are all mechanisms for upward mobility.

I disagree with your shrinkage list. Globalization and technology is eliminating jobs faster than people have the capacity to retrain, and the shift to a low skill service economy is breaking the paths of upwards mobility.

 

[Mai72]

I agree with your expansion list, as those are all mechanisms for upward mobility.

I disagree with your shrinkage list. Globalization and technology is eliminating jobs faster than people have the capacity to retrain, and the shift to a low skill service economy is breaking the paths of upwards mobility.

Agreed. But, I'd like to add that many people are having a very difficult time adjusting. Things are always going to change. What worked years ago might be unworkable today. Instead of complaing about how things used to be, IMO people whould adjust. 1) Learn new skills for that are valuable for the 21st century. 2) Get rid of many of the materalistic goods. We shouldn't be purchasing cars and homes we can't afford. Get lean. 3) Us the internet to your advantage. Learn a side hustle that could IN TIME make good side income. 4) Be flexible. If you have to move to find new opportunities than do it.

 

[ivwshane]

Agreed. But, I'd like to add that many people are having a very difficult time adjusting. Things are always going to change. What worked years ago might be unworkable today. Instead of complaing about how things used to be, IMO people whould adjust. 1) Learn new skills for that are valuable for the 21st century. 2) Get rid of many of the materalistic goods. We shouldn't be purchasing cars and homes we can't afford. Get lean. 3) Us the internet to your advantage. Learn a side hustle that could IN TIME make good side income. 4) Be flexible. If you have to move to find new opportunities than do it.

That may be good advice for individuals but it completely ignores the real issues facing this country. Taken as a national policy, your policy basically says we should simply lower our standard of living in order to allow corporations and the rich to continue to accumulate wealth and power.

 

[Maxima1]

Agreed. But, I'd like to add that many people are having a very difficult time adjusting. Things are always going to change. What worked years ago might be unworkable today. Instead of complaing about how things used to be, IMO people whould adjust. 1) Learn new skills for that are valuable for the 21st century. 2) Get rid of many of the materalistic goods. We shouldn't be purchasing cars and homes we can't afford. Get lean. 3) Us the internet to your advantage. Learn a side hustle that could IN TIME make good side income. 4) Be flexible. If you have to move to find new opportunities than do it.

Even if a lot of the population tried this (see below on how South Koreans feel about hard work), it doesn't change the fact that most jobs will still suck, especially if little is done to shore up the bottom half. Want to be a health aide, for example? As a benchmark for "good jobs", I use 20 yr enlisted military. Even a lot of college bound jobs suck if I do this.

South Koreans Increasingly Doubtful That Hard Work Pays Off

Just 47% of South Koreans say people can get ahead by working hard, reflecting a frustrated workforce struggling with low productivity and engagement.

www.gallup.com

 

[Mai72]

Even if a lot of the population tried this (see below on how South Koreans feel about hard work), it doesn't change the fact that most jobs will still suck, especially if little is done to shore up the bottom half. Want to be a health aide, for example? As a benchmark for "good jobs", I use 20 yr enlisted military. Even a lot of college bound jobs suck if I do this.

South Koreans Increasingly Doubtful That Hard Work Pays Off

Just 47% of South Koreans say people can get ahead by working hard, reflecting a frustrated workforce struggling with low productivity and engagement.

www.gallup.com

Yea, I lived in South Korea for 2 years. I saw people working till late at night to only go out and drink themselves to oblivion. I know that I've talked about working hard in the past, but IMO working hard is only part of it. Working smart is just as equally or might even be more important. The military isn't for most people, and everyone has their own path to go thru in life.

There isn't an easy answer to this.We are going to have 2 classes. The rich and the poor. The wealthy will enact walls to keep out the common folk. That is coming. And, there is nothing we can do about it. Sadly, the people with all the money control the government. I'm just trying to carve out a little spot for myself. I don't wanrt to take on the system.

 

[Majes]

A couple of factors that I haven't seen mentioned here...

1. The TARP bailout funds shifted a non-trivial chunk of the economy towards the upper class.

2. The empowerment of women essentially doubled the workforce while doing nothing to increase salaries.

 

[HomerJS]

A couple of factors that I haven't seen mentioned here...

1. The TARP bailout funds shifted a non-trivial chunk of the economy towards the upper class.

2. The empowerment of women essentially doubled the workforce while doing nothing to increase salaries.

And nobody went to jail over the biggest financial fraud in history. IMO one of Obama's biggest failings.

 

[Majes]

And nobody went to jail over the biggest financial fraud in history. IMO one of Obama's biggest failings.

The way debt works in this country works against the middle class for the most part too...

 

[Maxima1]

Yea, I lived in South Korea for 2 years. I saw people working till late at night to only go out and drink themselves to oblivion. I know that I've talked about working hard in the past, but IMO working hard is only part of it. Working smart is just as equally or might even be more important.

Yeah. It's amazing how many people I wouldn't want to be in this world If I was some observer looking in that was asked if I wanted a human life or not. Life's a bitch and then you die.

South Koreans lock themselves up to escape prison of daily life

For most people, prison is a place to escape from. For South Koreans in need of a break from the demands of everyday life, a day in a faux jail is the escape.

www.reuters.com

All traits are partially genetic. Grit. Anything. Environmental isn't fair either as it's obvious who will generally have the better environment. Technically, there is nothing anyone can do. No one has free will. Free will is nonsensical. One thought experiment I sometimes ask conservatives is why do black people do worse as a group than white people if souls are doled out randomly? So many people think that they'll act like themselves had they lived the life and had the brain of someone they're criticizing.

The military isn't for most people, and everyone has their own path to go thru in life.

I personally would definitely choose a lot of military jobs over trades or trucking if they made the same (of which military is better compensated anyway). I can tell you that a lot of people do end up regretting college as it doesn't always work out. The stats on time to completion and graduating are disturbing. Some do end up going into the military, in fact. My brother has come across some (failed comp sci and nursing students).

If you're knowledgeable before you go in, you can have your choice of jobs. It's also good to pretend in the Air Force that you don't know Ohm's law as ironically it'll lead to the better "nonner" placement. Some get PT included in regular hours. It's really not a whole lot different than civilian life.

 

[Maxima1]

The empowerment of women essentially doubled the workforce while doing nothing to increase salaries.

Yup. Minerals, oil, gas, etc. can boost an economy, but a lot of services jobs are a drag. E.g. psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors abound, yet people are depressed as ever!

It's a two income economy. Tons of people no longer want to pair up either and there is increasing assortative mating of the affluent through the decades.

 

[Mai72]

Yeah. It's amazing how many people I wouldn't want to be in this world If I was some observer looking in that was asked if I wanted a human life or not. Life's a bitch and then you die.

South Koreans lock themselves up to escape prison of daily life

For most people, prison is a place to escape from. For South Koreans in need of a break from the demands of everyday life, a day in a faux jail is the escape.

www.reuters.com

All traits are partially genetic. Grit. Anything. Environmental isn't fair either as it's obvious who will generally have the better environment. Technically, there is nothing anyone can do. No one has free will. Free will is nonsensical. One thought experiment I sometimes ask conservatives is why do black people do worse as a group than white people if souls are doled out randomly? So many people think that they'll act like themselves had they lived the life and had the brain of someone they're criticizing.



I personally would definitely choose a lot of military jobs over trades or trucking if they made the same (of which military is better compensated anyway). I can tell you that a lot of people do end up regretting college as it doesn't always work out. The stats on time to completion and graduating are disturbing. Some do end up going into the military, in fact. My brother has come across some (failed comp sci and nursing students).

If you're knowledgeable before you go in, you can have your choice of jobs. It's also good to pretend in the Air Force that you don't know Ohm's law as ironically it'll lead to the better "nonner" placement. Some get PT included in regular hours. It's really not a whole lot different than civilian life.

I'm not saying military is bad. It's a great path for some people. For others, not so much. If I had chldren I'd suggest the military and we'd go over the pros and cons of military service. I wouldn't beat them over the head with the idea though. Again, everyone has their own path and no one path is correct. For example, I have a friend whose been teaching in Vietnam for 4 years now and loves it. He will probably never come back to the states. The school pays for the rent on his home. The cost of living is dirt cheap, and he loves the culture. He has a Vietnam gf to boot. I'm also friends with a guy who works in the military and loves it. Another who got into a fight with his dad because his dad is a retired police officer, and my friend did not want to be a cop in Ocen Cuty, NJ. The easiet city to be a cop. $90k salary, full benefits etc. Instead he's a classroom aide making $24k a year. He loves his job. Again, everyone has their own path.

IMO, free will for most is nonsense. Like you had stated, but i have different beliefs. As human beings we are programmed from the age of 6. That means everything that you've encountered shapes your life. That would be much of the social conditioning that we encounter via school, our parents, and the environoment. Most people are living life unconsciously. They never give thought on why they think the way they do. To break free you need to be aware, and that can happen by putting yourself in another environment. I'll give me as an example. I come from a small town near the shore in NJ. It's strictly a summer location. The summers are super busy, and the rest of the year it's dead. Many of the people who live in my area are middle class italian/irish/catholic. There are minorities, but not many. When I traveled and lived in SE Asia and East Asia my mind was blown. Especially SE Asia. When I lived in Thailand I started to question everything. My religion. How I was raised. My mindset. I broke thru temporarily. My level of consciousness was much higher. I'm currently back home, and I'm now back to my old ways. I hate it. I was thinking about moving back. I guess it's a Buddhist perspective on life. Just a thought.

 

[Amol S.]

People taking out to many loans from the bank that they cant pay off, people not wanting to pay taxes, and illegal immigrants taking away our jobs.

Imo that is what ruined economy.

 

[SMOGZINN]

People taking out to many loans from the bank that they cant pay off

Why do you suppose that banks are giving people loans that they can't pay off?

people not wanting to pay taxes

You might need to explain this more. No one ever wants to pay, but almost everyone does.

and illegal immigrants taking away our jobs.

Where to you suppose they are taking them to? Because it does not really matter for an economy who works a job. The job still generates income, which is then spent to keep the economy moving.

 

[pmv]

A couple of factors that I haven't seen mentioned here...

1. The TARP bailout funds shifted a non-trivial chunk of the economy towards the upper class.

2. The empowerment of women essentially doubled the workforce while doing nothing to increase salaries.

for 2 - bear in mind the empowerment of women also doubled the paid work being done so doubled production. So in theory it ought to have all cancelled out - twice the labour force, twice as much stuff being produced, labour's value relative to goods ought to remain the same.

The exception, it seems to me, would be housing, as doubling the labour force doesn't double the supply of land. And I'm sure there would be a million other complications in a global economy of course.

 

[pmv]

Yup. Minerals, oil, gas, etc. can boost an economy, but a lot of services jobs are a drag. E.g. psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors abound, yet people are depressed as ever!

It's a two income economy. Tons of people no longer want to pair up either and there is increasing assortative mating of the affluent through the decades.

I was going to take major issue with your first-statement, as being simplistic and even possibly a bit sexist in implication. "service jobs" can produce real value, and in fact extractive industries can be disastrous for an economy as they encourage investment in them at the expense of sectors that are more creative and productive in the long run than just digging finite-resources out of the ground.

There's also a difference between different kinds of extractive industry as some require large, organised, labour forces (e.g. coal mining) but others lend themselves very well to a small techocrat elite class having all the power and easily grabbing all the wealth (look how corrupt and unequal so many petro-states are).

But for the specific examples you give I partly-agree with you about how useless, or at least over-rated, the psycho-professions are. They seem like a secular priesthood to me, with precisely the downsides that implies. They seem at times to be professional victim-blamers, all about individualising problems and side-lining the practical and social causes of unhappiness.

 

[HomerJS]

I agree with your expansion list, as those are all mechanisms for upward mobility.

I disagree with your shrinkage list. Globalization and technology is eliminating jobs faster than people have the capacity to retrain, and the shift to a low skill service economy is breaking the paths of upwards mobility.

The reason I put 401K and financial deregulation is the move to incentivize making money from money.

The 401K was a cash cow for Wall Street. The rich get richer

 

[Majes]

for 2 - bear in mind the empowerment of women also doubled the paid work being done so doubled production. So in theory it ought to have all cancelled out - twice the labour force, twice as much stuff being produced, labour's value relative to goods ought to remain the same.

The exception, it seems to me, would be housing, as doubling the labour force doesn't double the supply of land. And I'm sure there would be a million other complications in a global economy of course.

I don't want to discount your comment because it has merit. But I don't think production increased proportionally to the amount of new bodies entering the work force. My reasoning is that consumer numbers didn't really increase.

That being said I realize that at the same time we were opening up new markets overseas, but also exporting jobs there. There are a boatload of factors in this discussion...

 

[Amol S.]

Why is no one considering my suggestion? http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=thread...-do-wrong-to-destroy-it.2571841/post-39962780

 

[ivwshane]

Why is no one considering my suggestion? http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=thread...-do-wrong-to-destroy-it.2571841/post-39962780

Probably because of this little bit of craziness:

Every illegal immigrant that is being deported must pay a tax (in the form of a fine), for themselves (and for their children (if any accompanied them)), of a minimum of $100K (each, if more than one person), regardless of the age.

 

[Amol S.]

Where to you suppose they are taking them to? Because it does not really matter for an economy who works a job. The job still generates income, which is then spent to keep the economy moving.

So are you implying that the income of illegal immigrants that never get reported to the government, via taxes or via the census, are enough to justify the known data (that shows we have a decrease in middle class) to the point where it shows we have a growing middle class full of illegal imigrants?

 

[Amol S.]

Probably because of this little bit of craziness:

I think I should adjust that minimum to $25K, and the fine should only apply to those of legal working age.

In reality, the fine is actually the theoretical amount the illegal imigrant would have payed in taxes to the federal government if, they had come into the United States legally. Just think about it, a person with a H1-B visa does have to pay taxes, but an illegal immigrant would not be paying taxes, but are having a job. It's almost like tax evasion.