What do you think a contractor would charge to frame out the basement?

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Gand1
I can believe no one mention the fun you would have nailing the studs into the concrete with one of these...

http://nailgundepot.com/shop/c...page=1&productid=27256

Holy hell that is an expensive nailer. I wondered if air nailers existed for concrete, now I know. It seems the cheaper options are either hammered concrete nails (I saw a demo online and they are badass strong, but would require a lot of forearm work), hammer drill + screws, or powder nailer. I think I will end up going with the hammer drill and screws. It ensures no chance of chipping the concrete, plus if I have to remove them it's much easier, and of some importance the chances of me getting a nail through a body part are minimized.

 

[Aharami]

this is a very good topic as Im looking to finish my basement this fall also. Skoorb, do you mind sharing any useful links you may have found?

I have a couple questions regarding permits and inspection. My basement is 16x30 (townhouse) rectangle and Im just looking to make it into one large room (eventually a media/theater room). Not looking to put any bathrooms or bedrooms in there. Do I need to get some kind of permits for this? If I do the work myself, do I have to get it inspected? What happens if I dont get it inspected? What do I have to get inspected and signed off? My FIL is pretty good with electrical work and has offered to hook up new connections to the breaker box as long as I run the wires. My breaker box is in the garage, so Im in the process of cutting out drywall/making holes in the studs to run two 12 AWG romex wires into the basement that will feed the basement lights and outlets.

Also where can I find out about code? Can they (whoever 'they' may be) make me use a pro to do the work or do they just care that everything is according to code?

thanks

 

[StageLeft]

Skoorb, do you mind sharing any useful links you may have found?

So far I've found random things on google, but the main site is doityourself.com, which has a forum (hello!) and a lot of articles. The Stanley basement book is the best I've found so far, available from Home Depot or maybe the library. My library had several books.

They can only make you use a pro for a very small minimum of things. I know that in NY, which is pretty heavy in bureaucracy, I don't need a pro at all (I think). I need inspections at various points, but a licensed electrician or whatever is not needed. If you call your local town and ask about a building permit you can get from the building inspector(s) what you need.

To be honest the benefits of inspection and at-code are kind of dubious. If you go the proper route it will increase your property's value and thus taxes. However, when you go to sell the house, if the buyer asks if you had a proper permit and inspection and you don't, it may turn them off. This is because they have no idea what quality of work you've done. If you get it inspected they know you haven't done some crazy sh*t with the wiring or plumbing which could bite them down the road. I saw a show last night, some couple bought a house with a rental basement and it was never done to code and all of the work was extremely shoddy including wires that had melted together, so they ended up dropping a whack of cash to get it redone. I would assume in their case renting an illegal space like that is probably a big liability, legally, but even still it was a real safety issue not being to code.

I still do not know how to find out about code "in general". Most how-to books, sites describe what you need to do and you'll figure it out. I don't actually think it's that complex. Your town can have a gotcha, though. One next to me requires--for any work whatsoever--for the house's alarm system to be all wired in--every room's smoke alarm. My friend wants to get his basement done himself but despite his house being legal now if he gets that basement done, he has to retrofit all his other smoke alarms, costing him a couple thousand bucks. Even installing a window in a room would require a house in his area to be updated similarly.

 

[NoCreativity]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Skoorb, do you mind sharing any useful links you may have found?

So far I've found random things on google, but the main site is doityourself.com, which has a forum (hello!) and a lot of articles. The Stanley basement book is the best I've found so far, available from Home Depot or maybe the library. My library had several books.

They can only make you use a pro for a very small minimum of things. I know that in NY, which is pretty heavy in bureaucracy, I don't need a pro at all (I think). I need inspections at various points, but a licensed electrician or whatever is not needed. If you call your local town and ask about a building permit you can get from the building inspector(s) what you need.

To be honest the benefits of inspection and at-code are kind of dubious. If you go the proper route it will increase your property's value and thus taxes. However, when you go to sell the house, if the buyer asks if you had a proper permit and inspection and you don't, it may turn them off. This is because they have no idea what quality of work you've done. If you get it inspected they know you haven't done some crazy sh*t with the wiring or plumbing which could bite them down the road. I saw a show last night, some couple bought a house with a rental basement and it was never done to code and all of the work was extremely shoddy including wires that had melted together, so they ended up dropping a whack of cash to get it redone. I would assume in their case renting an illegal space like that is probably a big liability, legally, but even still it was a real safety issue not being to code.

I still do not know how to find out about code "in general". Most how-to books, sites describe what you need to do and you'll figure it out. I don't actually think it's that complex. Your town can have a gotcha, though. One next to me requires--for any work whatsoever--for the house's alarm system to be all wired in--every room's smoke alarm. My friend wants to get his basement done himself but despite his house being legal now if he gets that basement done, he has to retrofit all his other smoke alarms, costing him a couple thousand bucks. Even installing a window in a room would require a house in his area to be updated similarly.

Wouldn't doubt that someone on the city council is connected to a business that just happens to do that kind of work.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Gand1
I can believe no one mention the fun you would have nailing the studs into the concrete with one of these...

http://nailgundepot.com/shop/c...page=1&productid=27256

Holy hell that is an expensive nailer. I wondered if air nailers existed for concrete, now I know. It seems the cheaper options are either hammered concrete nails (I saw a demo online and they are badass strong, but would require a lot of forearm work), hammer drill + screws, or powder nailer. I think I will end up going with the hammer drill and screws. It ensures no chance of chipping the concrete, plus if I have to remove them it's much easier, and of some importance the chances of me getting a nail through a body part are minimized.

How ya gonna secure a 2x4 with a nailer that only fires a 1 inch nail? That nailer is only good for a couple of chores, I.E., it most likely was used to hang the insulation on your walls. Also, who among us has a compressor big enough to power that puppy, 400 psi YIKES! Concrete nails are the most commonly used method for most putemupquik builders. I do not use them cuz you can only sink them a inch at best, they can easily pull free or move, they WILL rust, you will break, fold, spindle, and mutilate 1 out of every 2 you drive, AND they will wear you the frack out!
Skoorb, if you do not already own one, get yourself a GOOD hammer drill, and some Good masonry bits, you will never regret it. As to securing the base of your frame, one thing,--
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn...-2191-11020&lpage=none
END OF DISCUSSION

 

[TheTony]

Originally posted by: runzwithsizorz

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Gand1
I can believe no one mention the fun you would have nailing the studs into the concrete with one of these...

http://nailgundepot.com/shop/c...page=1&productid=27256

Holy hell that is an expensive nailer. I wondered if air nailers existed for concrete, now I know. It seems the cheaper options are either hammered concrete nails (I saw a demo online and they are badass strong, but would require a lot of forearm work), hammer drill + screws, or powder nailer. I think I will end up going with the hammer drill and screws. It ensures no chance of chipping the concrete, plus if I have to remove them it's much easier, and of some importance the chances of me getting a nail through a body part are minimized.

How ya gonna secure a 2x4 with a nailer that only fires a 1 inch nail? That nailer is only good for a couple of chores, I.E., it most likely was used to hang the insulation on your walls. Also, who among us has a compressor big enough to power that puppy, 400 psi YIKES! Concrete nails are the most commonly used method for most putemupquik builders. I do not use them cuz you can only sink them a inch at best, they can easily pull free or move, they WILL rust, you will break, fold, spindle, and mutilate 1 out of every 2 you drive, AND they will wear you the frack out!
Skoorb, if you do not already own one, get yourself a GOOD hammer drill, and some Good masonry bits, you will never regret it. As to securing the base of your frame, one thing,--
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn...-2191-11020&lpage=none
END OF DISCUSSION

If you use screws, Tapcon or similar, like runz mentioned. Nails work too, but use a ramset.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

Hard wired smoke alarms has been code for new builds in most states,(if not all) for many years. Skoorb *should* have had one in his basement installed already. My basement came with one, I added 4 more to the existing line, a total of 12 throughout the house.

 

[StageLeft]

My existing alarms are wired in and there is one in the basement, but I'll put at least one more in...

 

[WA261]

I can't see it costing any more then 2k. Very small basement.

 

[MikeyIs4Dcats]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Squisher
Egress windows don't come cheap. Mostly because they have to cut through block, frame it, and install a well. $2000?

Didn't you say this was a walkout basement? I'm not sure on the rules, but I don't think the actual bedroom needs egress just the basement area.

Ridiculously I believe that EACH bedroom in NY needs an egress. I will confirm for sure, but I think that's the case. In this situation the bedroom door will open into a room with a walkout door AND an egress window already in existence. Pretty stupid. We're going to think of ways around this, like moving the bedroom around or whatever. Seems crazy to have three legitimate egresses for just one bedroom.

it's not ridiculous when you open your bedroom door in the middle of the night and find the rest of the basement in flames. I believe this is a requirement of International Residential Code.

 

[MikeyIs4Dcats]

Originally posted by: runzwithsizorz

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Gand1
I can believe no one mention the fun you would have nailing the studs into the concrete with one of these...

http://nailgundepot.com/shop/c...page=1&productid=27256

Holy hell that is an expensive nailer. I wondered if air nailers existed for concrete, now I know. It seems the cheaper options are either hammered concrete nails (I saw a demo online and they are badass strong, but would require a lot of forearm work), hammer drill + screws, or powder nailer. I think I will end up going with the hammer drill and screws. It ensures no chance of chipping the concrete, plus if I have to remove them it's much easier, and of some importance the chances of me getting a nail through a body part are minimized.

How ya gonna secure a 2x4 with a nailer that only fires a 1 inch nail? That nailer is only good for a couple of chores, I.E., it most likely was used to hang the insulation on your walls. Also, who among us has a compressor big enough to power that puppy, 400 psi YIKES! Concrete nails are the most commonly used method for most putemupquik builders. I do not use them cuz you can only sink them a inch at best, they can easily pull free or move, they WILL rust, you will break, fold, spindle, and mutilate 1 out of every 2 you drive, AND they will wear you the frack out!
Skoorb, if you do not already own one, get yourself a GOOD hammer drill, and some Good masonry bits, you will never regret it. As to securing the base of your frame, one thing,--
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn...-2191-11020&lpage=none
END OF DISCUSSION

the tool linked to is used to shoot concrete pins for attaching steel framing and steel stud track to concrete. it can also be used to install wall angle for acoustical ceiling grid, and other thin product to concrete (we've used a poweder actuated version to install tack rail in classrooms, etc.)

 

[runzwithsizorz]

Originally posted by: WA261
I can't see it costing any more then 2k. Very small basement.

You sir, need glasses

Lumber $350
nails,screws,anchors,etc $75
Plumbing,& pipe fittings $50
Carpet,and pad $400
Cheap tub & surround /w fittings $450
Toilet,& fittings $175
Bath exhaust fan $50
Vanity & fittings $350
Bath pre-hung door /w knob $200
insulation $200
Electrical supplies $350
Baseboard $50
Bath floor vinyl $75
Louvred doors for Hvac closet $200
Drywall & mud $200
Primer & paint $125
Window/egress $250
Bath fixtures $150
Total bare,bare,bare MINIMUM!!! $3700 for materials alone
Labor at aprox. 125 hours $???? do the math

 

[runzwithsizorz]

Hey Skoorb, regarding that window/egress,(at least you HAVE a window). Anyway, here's what I did to the bedroom in my basement. The backside of the closet abutted another room that had both windows, and a walkout, so I simply put a door there,(a two door closet), lo, and behold, the inspector passed it. just sayin.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

Skoorb, a couple of questions, looking down into what I considered a toilet stub, is it an elbow, or a tee? Does it appear to travel perpendicular to the wall straight back to the photographer in the pic, base 2 jpeg? How far from the center of the stub to the wall behind it?
How far to the wall on the left?

 

[runzwithsizorz]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Hot water heater and furnace do go to the same vent. I'm sure it's legal here, fwiw

OK, but it does seem odd, though the specs for both are the same,(class D IIRC), would you retro fit a dual exhaust car to a single using the same diameter pipe? With both the furnace, and the water heater on, hold a flame near the hood of the water heater, if the flame is not being sucked in, and up, you gotta problem.

I was told by everyone to go for a raised-floor bathroom to avoid cutting into cement.

Are you nutz? cutting the concrete is relatively easy, and will only cost you the materials for back fill. building a structurally sound platform will not only cost A LOT more, it will look like hell, and make you a laughing stock. I find this totally unacceptable, don't make me load tools and drive up there.

I thought of moving those copper lines into the joists. I'd have to replace them with plastic ones so that I could properly move them into joist holes. Most likely I'll just build the ceiling an inch lower, though, so as not to have to bother...

Though converting to CPVC would be easier, the build remains the same. The basement is the origin of your households water supply, and due to the smaller inside diameter of the SAME size of CPVC you would be robbing yourself of aprox. 1gal. a minute. Also, the converter uses a rubber washer, similar to a garden hose, do you really want that behind your drywall? With a $25 torch kit, and a couple of youtube how-to vids, you too, could be sweating with us oldies.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: runzwithsizorz
Skoorb, a couple of questions, looking down into what I considered a toilet stub, is it an elbow, or a tee? Does it appear to travel perpendicular to the wall straight back to the photographer in the pic, base 2 jpeg? How far from the center of the stub to the wall behind it?
How far to the wall on the left?

Hi, it's maybe 3 feet from the wall on one part and 6 from another. When I opened it up it drops down a foot or so curving toward the wall that it's close to, so it's not a 90 degree T-junction. I presume it hooks up to the same down as near the photographer in base 1, and then out it goes!

 

[runzwithsizorz]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: runzwithsizorz
Skoorb, a couple of questions, looking down into what I considered a toilet stub, is it an elbow, or a tee? Does it appear to travel perpendicular to the wall straight back to the photographer in the pic, base 2 jpeg? How far from the center of the stub to the wall behind it?
How far to the wall on the left?

Hi, it's maybe 3 feet from the wall on one part and 6 from another. When I opened it up it drops down a foot or so curving toward the wall that it's close to, so it's not a 90 degree T-junction. I presume it hooks up to the same down as near the photographer in base 1, and then out it goes!

Sorry to be such a pest here Skoorb, but there really is a method to my madness. The ONLY,(you say there's a third?), other 4" screw cap I see is in the pic, base 1. That one, by it's location is clearly to be used as a clean-out. It also creates a bit of a sticky wicket from a designers point of view, but as a famous Massachusetts senator once said, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Judging by the location of the cap in pic, base 2, we can assume that it was put there specifically for a toilet. The fact that it's down stream from the clean-out confirms this, how do we know this? you just told me. With the presents of a combo Y leading toward the wall, and most probably to the city main,(front of house?). example. on page 2 http://www.co.lincoln.or.us/pl...apps/plumbingguide.pdf
The only problem I have here, is your measurements, in the pic, I see a lamp base, 8", a white storage unit 12", and a couple more inch's to the center of the cap, total 22". You say it's 36", never the less, this measurement is not that critical, (I'll explain later). The other one however, IS. You say it is 6 feet, if that was true the carpet on the floor would also be 6 feet wide, that model plane would have a wingspan of 44", and the pillow would be nearly 3 feet squire. Please humor this old man and re-measure the distance from the wall on the LEFT to the center of the cap, would love to see, 48", 49", 50", 51"or 52".

 

[StageLeft]

runzwithsizorz, there is also another cleanout. If you look in base2 pic on the far right you see a yellow bag of cat food. About three feet past that is another cleanout exactly the same as in base1 right up against the wall. I'm not sure where it joins with the main line. Perhaps outside...? Or maybe closer to the center of the room, toward the photographer vs the toilet hole.

I redid the measurements. That toilet hole is precisely 6 feet from the wall in one direction and 30" from the wall in another.

It was a big pillow, but it's upstairs at the moment. The wingspan of the plane is 39" and the carpet is 63".

Thanks for the plumbing PDF. I will read it shortly.

Now, I expect that to put a tub and toilet and sink in this area, even with the toilet's drain already in the floor, I'll need to raise the floor so that I can have some "underground" plumbing under a wooden frame, otherwise it would be quite visible, but I've not looked enough into that yet.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

Looks like Skoorb's gonna put off finishing his basement. We probably scared him with all the details, warnings, codes, and yikes, PRICES:shocked:. Guess I can just throw this out then,
http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/r...hsizorz/Skoorbath.jpeg

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: runzwithsizorz
Looks like Skoorb's gonna put off finishing his basement. We probably scared him with all the details, warnings, codes, and yikes, PRICES:shocked:. Guess I can just throw this out then,
http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/r...hsizorz/Skoorbath.jpeg

Excellent! I will show it to the mrs

I admit I'm digesting a lot of info, but it's still Task #1 to be started this fall. I'm reading a little bit about it each day. I'll run out of excuses soon with mrs and have to get to town with it

 

[runzwithsizorz]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: runzwithsizorz
Looks like Skoorb's gonna put off finishing his basement. We probably scared him with all the details, warnings, codes, and yikes, PRICES:shocked:. Guess I can just throw this out then,
http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/r...hsizorz/Skoorbath.jpeg

Excellent! I will show it to the mrs

I admit I'm digesting a lot of info, but it's still Task #1 to be started this fall. I'm reading a little bit about it each day. I'll run out of excuses soon with mrs and have to get to town with it

That sketch is just one of several, I've been toying around with for your basement, and is pretty much just like one I've built before,(pics of it completed if you wish). The measurements are accurate, but it is NOT drawn to scale. Not really sure if it would work for I feel it may come too far into the room, and conflict with the stairway, also you never told us your preference, 1/2, 3/4, or full bath. I drew it that way only based on the info you gave, BTW, if, in the future I ask for a measurement, that means, to the inch. An example; You said the 2" vent in your ceiling,(it is 2"isn't it?), was about 96", or more, if my hunch is correct, it's more like 84", hence the location of the bathtub, and it's vent in the sketch. You should now know why I was so adamant about having 49" to the left wall. Keep in mind, that almost anything can be built, and there are ways around almost any obstacle, but I could not help the feeling that your builder was pushing me in a certain direction. If that cap in the floor was not meant for a toilet, it would have been on a tee, and not the combo Y you said it had running toward that near wall, and OUT of the house. Also, with the presents of the other 2 clean-outs there would be no need for it to begin with.
BTW, is that a copper line I see running down behind the large workbench? There may yet still be a toilet vent, it could be in that block wall, and you would see it behind that pink insulation up top as it entered the house framework.
Anyway, I have many years of pre-digesting all the info you could ever need, and if you wish, I could provide you, and the Mrs. a few different design lay-outs to mull over, as well as parts lists, and prices. Provided, you answer my questions, snap a few pics, and give me the measurements,(to the inch, ALL of them). I could walk you through every step of way should you chose to DIY, and I think you should, for I get the impression you are not ready to write a check for the aprox. $15,000 this job *should* cost. I can do this, for I'm retired, like to stay active, and well, I don't have a life, lol. I believe this should now go to PM, or even email.
Best Regards, Runz

 

[StageLeft]

I do still need to take exact measurements of absolutely everything, to the inch The copper line behind the workbench is our main water line, or at least water reader. The water comes in at the floor and then goes up and that is the meter with an RF transmitter for reading.

I don't think there is a toilet vent there but I will pull down some more insulation once I move everything into the storage room to begin work, and find out for sure at that point. I am assuming for now, though, that there is no such vent behind the wall...

Thanks for your help. We can PM from here. If things go to plan I'll update this thread with finished pics in the future. We're really not going to be able to do a large check at the moment and will almost certainly have to do most of it ourselves, as I really don't want to part with that money right now to the extent required to pay someone to finish it.

 

[Sea Moose]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I do still need to take exact measurements of absolutely everything, to the inch The copper line behind the workbench is our main water line, or at least water reader. The water comes in at the floor and then goes up and that is the meter with an RF transmitter for reading.

I don't think there is a toilet vent there but I will pull down some more insulation once I move everything into the storage room to begin work, and find out for sure at that point. I am assuming for now, though, that there is no such vent behind the wall...

Thanks for your help. We can PM from here. If things go to plan I'll update this thread with finished pics in the future. We're really not going to be able to do a large check at the moment and will almost certainly have to do most of it ourselves, as I really don't want to part with that money right now to the extent required to pay someone to finish it.

why not take real and accurate measurements and do it in mm

i cant wait to see the finished result (thread saved)

 

[StageLeft]

I've continued to read and research for the basement and tentatively planning next week to apply for the permit. We've moved most of the stuff out into the new storage area. I've itemized what I think all the materials (down to nails and drywall mud) and tools will cost and we're looking at about $8k based on that estimate Guessing cost will rise, but I don't think by too much. As I'm still waiting back from our original contractor on an estimate I continued to read and feel more confident in doing it myself so I'm now leaning that way for everything.

The toilet stub in the floor for the full bathroom we're going to either need to build a raised floor bathroom or bust up the concrete and add some more pipes. Since the sewer drain truly is in that toilet stub, I don't need a mascerating toilet or anything. Our contractor was talking about raising the bathroom floor but I think that's only because it's easier, right? Based on what I've read it seems quite easy intellectually (physically laborious) to bust up the concrete and add the proper piping, thus saving myself ~8" of bathroom floor. The two books I have don't even entertain the thought of raising the floor and most of what I read on the net doesn't mention it either in a case like mine. Is it even worth considering? I can do the concrete with a circular saw to score it then rent an electrical jack hammer to bust it up.

Given that I have yet to even pound a nail or even chalk out the walls I say this with many grains of salt, but we're hoping to get this done by the spring. Winter is a perfect time to do it

 

[edro]

Originally posted by: Sea Moose

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I do still need to take exact measurements of absolutely everything, to the inch The copper line behind the workbench is our main water line, or at least water reader. The water comes in at the floor and then goes up and that is the meter with an RF transmitter for reading.

I don't think there is a toilet vent there but I will pull down some more insulation once I move everything into the storage room to begin work, and find out for sure at that point. I am assuming for now, though, that there is no such vent behind the wall...

Thanks for your help. We can PM from here. If things go to plan I'll update this thread with finished pics in the future. We're really not going to be able to do a large check at the moment and will almost certainly have to do most of it ourselves, as I really don't want to part with that money right now to the extent required to pay someone to finish it.

why not take real and accurate measurements and do it in mm

i cant wait to see the finished result (thread saved)

Most measurement units are identically accurate, except for Biblical units based on human appendages.