What do you think AMD will do with Zen 8C/16T dies with a Mem Controller defect?

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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As you can see in the above picture there are two 64 bit memory controllers (each one about the size of two Zen cores without the cache). Therefore I would imagine over time AMD will start to accumulate a pile of chips with a defect in one or both of these controllers. What do you think will happen to these chips?
 

dacostafilipe

Senior member
Oct 10, 2013
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They could do the same thing they did with RadeonPro Duo, add a dead chip to the package. Maybe as part of a future "Black Edition" CPU?
 

gregoryvg

Senior member
Jul 8, 2008
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Well I suppose with only one dead memory controller, they could maybe sell it as a 4c/8t (or 3c/6t) Athlon or Sempron.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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Could AMD make a APU out of the die by using a GPU with a HBM controller MCM? (And use HBM2 or low cost HBM for system RAM)

 
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cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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1.) Regarding the APU mentioned in post #6, here are the internals of the 2014 Razor Blade (14"):



^^^ That is a 37W Intel Haswell Quad core, 100W Nvidia GTX 870M, 16 DDR3 DRAM chips, four (or is it three?) GDDR5 packages.

There is also is a 2017 Razor Blade (also 14") that has a 45W Kabylake quad core and GTX 1060 6GB (120W TDP on desktop). I don't have a teardown picture of that but I am assuming it is very similar.

So I was thinking of something a lot less complex so that kind of thin and relatively lightweight (4.47lb for 2014 Razor Blade) laptop could have bigger fans and/or more fans, larger battery, etc

2.) Does using broken memory controller Ryzen dies help offset the cost enough to justify the cost of HBM2 here? Or is this type of APU not really that cost sensitive relative to the application it is being used in?

P.S. According to this article Vega 10 will have a TDP of 225W (@ 1465 Mhz clock) That TDP is too high for a laptop, but it does have the capability for 16GB of HBM2 (which I think would be enough for shared system RAM in a laptop) and I suspect the TDP could drop low enough with downclocking particularly with some functional units disabled (ie, harvested version of Vega 10).
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
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IDK. It seems like they have an IMC deficiency even when both controller are working.
 
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amd6502

Senior member
Apr 21, 2017
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Probably a very rare defect.

If not, best thing IMHO would be (if possible) to stick two together in an MCM for a high end 16c/16t AM4 chip.

Another option, solder them in BGA FP4 form onto a mini ITX board with some onboard graphics solution; run them at lock clocks and low power (~25W).
 
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Yakk

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May 28, 2016
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P.S. According to this article Vega 10 will have a TDP of 225W (@ 1465 Mhz clock) That TDP is too high for a laptop, but it does have the capability for 16GB of HBM2 (which I think would be enough for shared system RAM in a laptop) and I suspect the TDP could drop low enough with downclocking particularly with some functional units disabled (ie, harvested version of Vega 10).

Well, if we look at the Fury Nano, it was a 175w tdp part, 100w less than a fury X. With a node shrink since then AMD could release a much lower tdp Vega for laptops, and eventually a nice Ryzen HBM APU would be great.
 
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cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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IDK. It seems like that have and IMC deficiency even when both controller are working.

If the CPU is using HBM2.....wouldn't the CPU not need those IMCs though?

P.S. I found the following article claiming the CPU and GPU (on the rumored HPC APU) could use the HBM2. Not sure how the CPU is doing this though? Sharing GPU HBM2 controller(s)? Or something else?

https://www.top500.org/news/pondering-amds-ambitions-for-high-performance-apus/

A rumor that an HBM-powered APU was in the works was reported on by Fudzilla in March 2015. The chip would combine 16 Zen cores (up to two threads per core) with a large “Greenland” (now “Vega 10”) GPU. The processor would be hooked up to a 16 GB HBM device via a silicon interposer, and deliver 512 GB/second of memory bandwidth to the APU compute units. Four channels of DDR4 memory would also be included, supporting a maximum capacity of 1 TB. Although those specs clearly point it toward HPC and other high-end server work, such a design could be scaled down to AMD’s desktop and laptop markets as well.
 
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cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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Well, if we look at the Fury Nano, it was a 175w tdp part, 100w less than a fury X. With a node shrink since then AMD could release a much lower tdp Vega for laptops, and eventually a nice Ryzen HBM APU would be great.

That 175W is 64% of the 275W starting point.

So if we started at 225W (Full size reference clocked Vega 10) and applied 64% that would give us 144W for a full size downclocked Vega 10. Assuming the downclocked Vega 10 was also reduced 20% in size by disabling units that would result in a TDP of 115.2W. (I think that would work as the current dGPU (GTX 1060 6GB) in the 2017 Razor Blade (14") is rated at 120W when used on the desktop.)
 
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Yakk

Golden Member
May 28, 2016
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That 175W is 64% of the 275W starting point.

So if we started at 225W (Full size reference clocked Vega 10) and applied 64% that would give us 144W for a full size downclocked Vega 10. Assuming the downclocked Vega 10 was also reduced 20% in size by disabling units that would result in a TDP of 115.2W. (I think that would work as the current dGPU (GTX 1060 6GB) in the 2017 Razor Blade (14") is rated at 120W when used on the desktop.)

A Ryzen APU with +/- 50w CPU & 100w Vega GPU would definitely be possible medium term IMHO. That would be a powerhouse combo, and something to maybe even grab Apple's attention. Hopefully AMD now has enough resources available with now both Ryzen & Scorpio both being out of R&D. Looks like Vega was the project which got the short end of the stick with all the projects they had going on.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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A Ryzen APU with +/- 50w CPU & 100w Vega GPU would definitely be possible medium term IMHO. That would be a powerhouse combo, and something to maybe even grab Apple's attention. Hopefully AMD now has enough resources available with now both Ryzen & Scorpio both being out of R&D. Looks like Vega was the project which got the short end of the stick with all the projects they had going on.

Here is another laptop that uses a 45W CPU (i7 6700HQ) and 120W GPU (GTX 1060 6GB). In contrast to the 14" Razor Blade it is 15.6" (but less than 4 lbs).

Looking at the internals, I would think with an APU there could be four small fans rather than three. The heatsink system (which we can't see in the photo below) I'm bet would also be a lot simpler too.



So perhaps in some cases the APU could be even higher than 150W? Maybe using a downclocked Vega (using our previous example) with only 10% of the functional units disabled? (ie, 130W GPU)
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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Could AMD make a APU out of the die by using a GPU with a HBM controller MCM? (And use HBM2 or low cost HBM for system RAM)


According to this old article from 2015 the CPU is MCM and located off the Vega 10 GPU/HBM2/interposer:



So according to this diagram there is no specific Server APU interposer (just the same interposer used by a Vega 10 dGPU). If this is true, I do wonder how well the CPU can share the GPU's HBM2 via the fabric? And how does this sharing compare to the CPU's ability to use DDR4?
 
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cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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I wonder if they could use four dies with one broken memory controller each for X399?

This with 6 cores per die for a 24C/48T quad channel processor?

Or does each CCX need to have its own memory controller?
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
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I wonder if they could use four dies with one broken memory controller each for X399?

This with 6 cores per die for a 24C/48T quad channel processor?

Or does each CCX need to have its own memory controller?

Not so much it's only memory controller but each mem controller has very specific pins that go to specific memory slots. It would be really awkward trying to figure out which memory slots on your server are the correct ones you should be installing memory into.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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I wonder if they could use four dies with one broken memory controller each for X399?

This with 6 cores per die for a 24C/48T quad channel processor?

Or does each CCX need to have its own memory controller?

Not so much it's only memory controller but each mem controller has very specific pins that go to specific memory slots. It would be really awkward trying to figure out which memory slots on your server are the correct ones you should be installing memory into.

The Servers do have octa channel.....but X399 is quad channel:

http://www.tweaktown.com/news/57772/asrock-x399-taichi-ready-amd-threadripper-16c-32t/index.html



So all the DIMM slots should be functional assuming a four die (each with 1 memory controller) arrangement works. (memory controller on each die is routed to the right pins on the processor PCB)
 
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Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
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The Servers do have octa channel.....but X399 is quad channel:

http://www.tweaktown.com/news/57772/asrock-x399-taichi-ready-amd-threadripper-16c-32t/index.html

So all the DIMM slots should be functional assuming a four die (each with 1 memory controller) arrangement works. (memory controller on each die is routed to the right pins on the processor PCB)

I miss read what he was asking. Trying to use TR's similar socket for increased cores. Point still stands. If you look at TR's board and CPU you can see the Pin configuration and stuff is split for each core and there is more than just memory pins that account for the usage. It isn't that it's impossible (they could just ignore the extra PCIe lanes and such. I don't think a Quad channel EPYC would work correctly on TR and the packaging on the chip would get really confusing considering the different configurations and which Mem Channels would be possibly bad. The other question would be whether or not AMD even had enough chips with one bad mem controller to make any of this worthwhile.
 

LaikaSpaceCat

Junior Member
Jun 15, 2017
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The chances of this very specific defect are surely not low enough for AMD to commercialize something as exotic as APU with HBM.

It's not like an Athlon where you just disable part of the chip and bring it to market. With this it would require serious engineering effort.
 

Doom2pro

Senior member
Apr 2, 2016
587
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Well we know what they are doing with the dies that only have 2 functional cores but fully working Cache, PCIe and Memory Controllers.... Hint: EPYC $400 8c/16t - 128 PCIe - 8 Channel DDR4.

Turning Garbage into Treasure! Thanks to Infinity Fabric!
 
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