Discussion What do you think of this Police encounter?

[Aikouka]

This might be a more relevant question if the police officers didn't initiate the encounter with guns drawn and pointed at the driver while aggressively yelling at him. The driver did absolutely nothing to warrant that kind of an initial response. Once you're at that point, I'm sure the driver was having a very hard time thinking clearly, and obviously the primary thought pushing everything else out was survival. His main objective was clearly to keep his hands where police could see them. I mean, can you imagine if this was the standard procedure for police pulling someone over with improper tags on a car? Don't you think that level of response by police is completely insane?

To be clear, I don't mean to suggest that the cops didn't screw up. The events do make me wonder what was going through their heads. Why did they choose an aggressive start to their interaction? Did they assume the vehicle was stolen? Were they really so upset that the driver lead them to the gas station? (I'd hope not.) As much as I railed on the driver for asking "why?" so much, I do think it's important that we understand the underlying cause of these events if we want to push for change. Is it just overzealous and/or power-tripping cops?

You realize his door was locked so he would have had to reach into the car to unlock it? Would you do that with a gun pointed at your head by a guy who told you you were about to be executed?

Yes, I read that he was buckled in and that his door was locked, and would need to be unlocked from the inside. I guess I don't understand how his impediments didn't get relayed to the officers. "Get out of the car!" "I can't!" "Why not?" "I'm buckled and the door is locked" Of course, similar to what @mect was talking about, we don't know about his condition in this situation. Although, I guess I might also suspect a serviceman might have a cooler head in that sort of situation?

In the US, cops don't get to command citizens to do things without cause . Officer Joe Gutierrez was clearly way out of line. Thankfully he has been fired and hopefully never gets another job in law enforcement.

At least from what this article talks about in regard to a similar situation (police officer commanding someone out of their car) back in 2015, it is legal for a police officer to command someone to get out of their vehicle. Although, it seems like the police officer in the article and Gutierrez both did not act appropriately when things didn't go their way.

 

[Zorba]

The article talks about apologizing for the use of pepper spray. He wasn't sprayed because they thought he didn't have proper tags for the vehicle. He was sprayed because he wouldn't comply.

Although, I think they should apologize for what appeared to be continually spraying him for no reason. Albeit, the camera angle doesn't show the result of the previous spray, so I can't be sure if prior spray attempts appeared ineffective or missed, but I'm assuming they kept spraying him. That's about the equivalent of kicking someone when they're already down.

Refused to comply after being threaten with bodily harm multiple times if he did comply. Also, told to keeps his hands out, making it impossible to comply.

 

[Zorba]

Yes, I read that he was buckled in and that his door was locked, and would need to be unlocked from the inside. I guess I don't understand how his impediments didn't get relayed to the officers. "Get out of the car!" "I can't!" "Why not?" "I'm buckled and the door is locked" Of course, similar to what @mect was talking about, we don't know about his condition in this situation. Although, I guess I might also suspect a serviceman might have a cooler head in that sort of situation?

Why exactly is it on the person that has guns pointed at him, who has just recieved multiple threats of violence, to act rationally and deescalate the situation? Especially when these two cops made it very clear they had no interest in anything he had to say?

We should expect the guy getting paid to do his job and is holding the gun to actually be the professional.

 

[zzyzxroad]

To be clear, I don't mean to suggest that the cops didn't screw up. The events do make me wonder what was going through their heads. Why did they choose an aggressive start to their interaction? Did they assume the vehicle was stolen? Were they really so upset that the driver lead them to the gas station? (I'd hope not.) As much as I railed on the driver for asking "why?" so much, I do think it's important that we understand the underlying cause of these events if we want to push for change. Is it just overzealous and/or power-tripping cops?



Yes, I read that he was buckled in and that his door was locked, and would need to be unlocked from the inside. I guess I don't understand how his impediments didn't get relayed to the officers. "Get out of the car!" "I can't!" "Why not?" "I'm buckled and the door is locked" Of course, similar to what @mect was talking about, we don't know about his condition in this situation. Although, I guess I might also suspect a serviceman might have a cooler head in that sort of situation?



At least from what this article talks about in regard to a similar situation (police officer commanding someone out of their car) back in 2015, it is legal for a police officer to command someone to get out of their vehicle. Although, it seems like the police officer in the article and Gutierrez both did not act appropriately when things didn't go their way.

Did you intentionally gloss over the question I asked? I will put it here one more time.

You realize his door was locked so he would have had to reach into the car to unlock it? Would you do that with a gun pointed at your head by a guy who told you you were about to be executed?

The Lieutenant was very smart to keep his hands out in plain sight. Someone less composed may have been murdered.

Why exactly is it on the person that has guns pointed at him, who has just recieved multiple threats of violence, to act rationally and deescalate the situation? Especially when these two cops made it very clear they had no interest in anything he had to say?

We should expect the guy getting paid to do his job and is holding the gun to actually be the professional.

That officer was clearly not fit for duty and I am glad he was fired. There is something wrong with anyone who argues the other side of this story.

 

[Aikouka]

Did you intentionally gloss over the question I asked? I will put it here one more time.

I believe I already answered that with this portion of my previous post, but let me know if this is not sufficient...

Yes, I read that he was buckled in and that his door was locked, and would need to be unlocked from the inside. I guess I don't understand how his impediments didn't get relayed to the officers. "Get out of the car!" "I can't!" "Why not?" "I'm buckled and the door is locked"

To be fair, I cannot suggest that the situation would have necessarily improved if the aforementioned had occurred. The officer(s) appeared overly antagonistic.

Refused to comply after being threaten with bodily harm multiple times if he did comply. Also, told to keeps his hands out, making it impossible to comply.

How is the officer supposed to know that he is incapable of complying if the driver doesn't convey that information? Although, the issue can come back to the level of threat being started at such a high point (i.e. guns drawn). In a normal scenario (i.e. a routine traffic stop), the officers could just walk up and see the state of the driver.

Why exactly is it on the person that has guns pointed at him, who has just recieved multiple threats of violence, to act rationally and deescalate the situation?

I touched on this right before here, but for the sake of this, we'll need to disregard the notion of whether the guns were necessary or not. (Frankly, given that the officers haven't given a good reason for stopping him, I'd lean heavily toward "they weren't".) If an officer has raised the threat level to the point where guns are drawn, he isn't going to approach the vehicle to attempt to ascertain things such as whether the door is locked or the driver is restrained. In that scenario, the driver would need to communicate those facts.

Especially when these two cops made it very clear they had no interest in anything he had to say?

To be blunt, I'm not willing to suggest what would have happened if the driver provided the information, because neither you nor I know the answer to that. Sure, we can both make guesses, but to my knowledge, I've never suggested that the situation would've miraculously improved with that information. My entire point is to suggest that the driver could have handled the situation better, and to make sure this is very clear, I have no issues with the officer being fired as a result of what did happen.

We should expect the guy getting paid to do his job and is holding the gun to actually be the professional.

As noted above (and before), I have no issue with the officer being fired.

 

[zzyzxroad]

Yes, I read that he was buckled in and that his door was locked, and would need to be unlocked from the inside. I guess I don't understand how his impediments didn't get relayed to the officers. "Get out of the car!" "I can't!" "Why not?" "I'm buckled and the door is locked" Of course, similar to what @mect was talking about, we don't know about his condition in this situation. Although, I guess I might also suspect a serviceman might have a cooler head in that sort of situation?

Sorry, somehow I missed this post. Like I missed your post did you miss the part where the Lieutenant had a gun pointed in his face by a belligerent cop who just threatened to execute him? He held his cool but i'd guess he was more than a little freaked out. Trying to place any blame on the Lieutenant is insane.