Discussion What do you think of this Police encounter?

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NWRMidnight

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,967
2,574
136
In other news, Today about police "accidental discharge" of gun killing driver (I am conflicted with the statement of it being an accidental discharge of the gun):


If indeed it was an accident, this screams bad training, and/or lack of training because if you are so quick to pull a weapon and discharge it without taking a moment to see what you have in your hand before pulling the trigger, than there is an issue in training. Just the feel alone should have warned the officer she had the wrong weapon in her hand...
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,708
49,291
136
I take it you didn't really look at the article I linked. As I also told JediYoda: If you have to include over time to pad the numbers, you already lost the argument. You are also using a police chief as an example of $120k to $140k a year, one of the highest paid positions. That's like comparing a CEO's wages to the standard employees wages.. LOL! AS for the pension: are you trying to say that if a police officer survives their career, they shouldn't have a nice pension? get out of here.

If you read the article, you will notice it states that salaries are heavily dependent on cost of living, so the majority of the states that have a higher salary for police officers is because of the cost of living being much higher, not because of the dangers of the job.
In NYC the wage for a patrolman after 5 years is $90k, before overtime. This wage for one person is about 50% higher than the median household income for the city, so they are very well paid considering it only requires an associates degree. On top of that they can retire with a full pension after 20 years, which means a lot of them ‘retire’ in their early to mid 40’s. Also, a police officer is not a particularly dangerous job, and most of the danger comes from traffic accidents while driving around.

I’m open to the idea of paying police more while demanding more of them, but they really are paid just fine.
 
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NWRMidnight

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,967
2,574
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In NYC the wage for a patrolman after 5 years is $90k, before overtime. This wage for one person is about 50% higher than the median household income for the city, so they are very well paid considering it only requires an associates degree. On top of that they can retire with a full pension after 20 years, which means a lot of them ‘retire’ in their early to mid 40’s. Also, a police officer is not a particularly dangerous job, and most of the danger comes from traffic accidents while driving around.

I’m open to the idea of paying police more while demanding more of them, but they really are paid just fine.

The minimum wage in New York city is $15 and hour ($31k a year), So with a median income of $63k in New your city, shows that the city has a lot of minimum wage workers. Seattle, which also has a minimum wage of $15 an hour has a median wage of $102k. Cost of living in New York is 33% higher than Seattle, so I see the $63k median income as being extremely low for how high the cost of living is, and having a $15 hour minimum wage. I think all you just demonstrated is that New York has a lot of low income, minimum wage jobs that brings that median wage down and really isn't a good way to judge a police officers salary. Just my opinion.

Also, 20 years for full pension is standard across the nation in most industries that offer retirement/pension plans. The problem is, many companies don't offer pension/retirement plans anymore outside of 401K's or simular.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,708
49,291
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The minimum wage in New York city is $15 and hour ($31k a year), So with a median income of $63k in New your city, shows that the city has a lot of minimum wage workers. Seattle, which also has a minimum wage of $15 an hour has a median wage of $102k. Cost of living in New York is 33% higher than Seattle, so I see the $63k median income as being extremely low for how high the cost of living is, and having a $15 hour minimum wage. I think all you just demonstrated is that New York has a lot of low income, minimum wage jobs that brings that median wage down and really isn't a good way to judge a police officers salary. Just my opinion.
I’ve lived in NYC for ten years and I can say that a household making $90k on one income is doing just fine. Way better than fine. Especially when only an associates degree is required.
Also, 20 years for full pension is standard across the nation in most industries that offer retirement/pension plans. The problem is, many companies don't offer pension/retirement plans anymore outside of 401K's or simular.
No, it is not. Nearly all pensions have a minimum age to receive full benefits. Police can retire with full benefits literally several decades early!

For example I’m part of a pension system and if I retire before 63 I have my benefits reduced for every year. If I were a cop I could retire 23 years earlier than that with no reduction.
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
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Sorry but I have to disagree with being over paid, over benefitted.




Bullshit! See above link. If you have to include over time to pad the numbers to fit the argument that they make a lot of money, than you lost the argument before you even look at the link I supplied. (take note that their salaries are directly linked to cost of living)
so lets get this straight after 6 months a cop graduates with what type of degree?? I think there pay is commensurate with their training. The better trained the more they should get paid
A beautician has to go to 2 years of school to cut hair.......
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
In other news, Today about police "accidental discharge" of gun killing driver (I am conflicted with the statement of it being an accidental discharge of the gun):


If indeed it was an accident, this screams bad training, and/or lack of training because if you are so quick to pull a weapon and discharge it without taking a moment to see what you have in your hand before pulling the trigger, than there is an issue in training. Just the feel alone should have warned the officer she had the wrong weapon in her hand...
No this screams the person who made the "mistake" has no business being a police officer...
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
I’ve lived in NYC for ten years and I can say that a household making $90k on one income is doing just fine. Way better than fine. Especially when only an associates degree is required. --- Cops don`t get an associates degree...they get 6 months of training which is equivelant to 1 year of "college"......

No, it is not. Nearly all pensions have a minimum age to receive full benefits. Police can retire with full benefits literally several decades early!
lolol
 

compcons

Platinum Member
Oct 22, 2004
2,155
1,166
136
Looks like the dumbasses have left the thread. This was a really interesting overlap of boot licking, authoritarian loving asshole and racist fucktard. Pretty much "if you are not white, just comply and do what your told, BOY." It's so sad to think that people like killster have the right to vote. So fucking stupid.

Perhaps they skipped the history lesson where they talked about how America was founded by people who thought complying was for pusssies.
 

NWRMidnight

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,967
2,574
136
I’ve lived in NYC for ten years and I can say that a household making $90k on one income is doing just fine. Way better than fine. Especially when only an associates degree is required.

No, it is not. Nearly all pensions have a minimum age to receive full benefits. Police can retire with full benefits literally several decades early!

For example I’m part of a pension system and if I retire before 63 I have my benefits reduced for every year. If I were a cop I could retire 23 years earlier than that with no reduction.
I have lived here in Washington for 36 years, and I can't speak for anyone else but myself when it come to income and what is considered doing fine or not. My income is fine for my life style. I have no clue about anyone else financial situation, obligations or life style. I think you are being presumptuous if you believe you can speak for anyone else outside of yourself. To buy a home in New York City, it takes an minimum income of $100k today. Now sure how making $90k qualifies as doing fine, if you can't even qualify to buy a house.

It doesn't matter what degree is required. It's sad that we have come to the point that people believe that a degree should dictate one's income level. That is one reason why there is such a large income inequity in this country, and it is backwards and wrong way of thinking. But that is a completely different discussion.

As for pensions, that may be your experience, but it isn't mine. My brother who is now 56 has been able to retire for the past 10 years if he wanted to (Union Plumber) with his full pension. My job, which is also union, I can retire at 20 years with full pension. The only thing that increase the amount is the more years I put in beyond 20, not my age. I have family and friends who started collecting full pensions in their early 50's. Some are working on a second pension.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,860
20,182
136
^^^ NYPD starts at $42.5 and doubles in five years.


A Rookie working Manhattan South probably can't afford to live there.

It really depends how you want to live, I know people renting studios in great areas of Manhattan South like Chelsea or Gramercy for around $2500 a month, but most people that work in Manhattan South commute there anyway, because they can't afford the lifestyle they want in Manhattan south either. Making that money while patrolling Manhattan South is pretty good.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,708
49,291
136
I have lived here in Washington for 36 years, and I can't speak for anyone else but myself when it come to income and what is considered doing fine or not. My income is fine for my life style. I have no clue about anyone else financial situation, obligations or life style. I think you are being presumptuous if you believe you can speak for anyone else outside of yourself. To buy a home in New York City, it takes an minimum income of $100k today. Now sure how making $90k qualifies as doing fine, if you can't even qualify to buy a house.
I’m speaking to the median income in New York City. Whatever you think is good or bad, police officers earn much more than the median citizen of the city.

It doesn't matter what degree is required. It's sad that we have come to the point that people believe that a degree should dictate one's income level. That is one reason why there is such a large income inequity in this country, and it is backwards and wrong way of thinking. But that is a completely different discussion.

As for pensions, that may be your experience, but it isn't mine. My brother who is now 56 has been able to retire for the past 10 years if he wanted to (Union Plumber) with his full pension. My job, which is also union, I can retire at 20 years with full pension. The only thing that increase the amount is the more years I put in beyond 20, not my age. I have family and friends who started collecting full pensions in their early 50's. Some are working on a second pension.
Why is this relevant. A pension you collect on at 40 is enormously more valuable than what you collect at 63.
 

NWRMidnight

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,967
2,574
136
I’m speaking to the median income in New York City. Whatever you think is good or bad, police officers earn much more than the median citizen of the city.


Why is this relevant. A pension you collect on at 40 is enormously more valuable than what you collect at 63.

It doesn't matter if police earn more than the median income, that has no relevance, other than New York City being only $63K, which is really low for having a minimum wage of $15, and the median income of citizens can't even qualify to buy a house, neither can a police officer making $90k a year. I think it's highly relevant if you believe $90k is fine yet they can't qualify to buy a house. that's my point. But at the end of the day, the median income of regular citizens has zero relevance to what a police officer makes in New York City when minimum wage is $31k per year, yet the median income is only $63k per year. That is a substantially low median income, specially with the higher cost of living. Yet you want to use it to compare what police make. It comes across as an argument that "since the median income is low, police income should also be low." That doesn't make sense to me.

We are talking about when you can get a full pension, not the value of what it's worth if you get that full pension at 40 vs 63.. Not even relevant to the discussion other than the fact IF you can't get your full pension until you are age 63 as you claim, your pension is going to be reduced by a set amount for every year before age 63 regardless of how many years you have in, causing your retirement to be lower, meaning age determines if you get a higher amount or not. Where as I was demonstrating that a full pension can be taken after 20 years, regardless of age, and the amount increases as you keep working past that 20 years. It won't matter if you retire at 50 or 60, the amount will be the same depending on years served, not age.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,708
49,291
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It doesn't matter if police earn more than the median income, that has no relevance, other than New York City being only $63K, which is really low for having a minimum wage of $15, and the median income of citizens can't even qualify to buy a house, neither can a police officer making $90k a year. I think it's highly relevant if you believe $90k is fine yet they can't qualify to buy a house. that's my point. But at the end of the day, the median income of regular citizens has zero relevance to what a police officer makes in New York City when minimum wage is $31k per year, yet the median income is only $63k per year. That is a substantially low median income, specially with the higher cost of living. Yet you want to use it to compare what police make. It comes across as an argument that "since the median income is low, police income should also be low." That doesn't make sense to me.
I guess my question then would be what multiple of median income you would consider acceptable for police would be then.

How much richer than the average citizen do police need to be? Right now in NYC it’s about 50%, assuming a single cop’s salary vs. an entire household. Should it be double? Three times? Four?

We are talking about when you can get a full pension, not the value of what it's worth if you get that full pension at 40 vs 63.. Not even relevant to the discussion other than the fact IF you can't get your full pension until you are age 63 as you claim, your pension is going to be reduced by a set amount for every year before age 63 regardless of how many years you have in, causing your retirement to be lower, meaning age determines if you get a higher amount or not. Where as I was demonstrating that a full pension can be taken after 20 years, regardless of age, and the amount increases as you keep working past that 20 years. It won't matter if you retire at 50 or 60, the amount will be the same depending on years served, not age.
Right. If a police officer works from age 20 to age 40 they can retire with full benefits from their pension. If you are any other city worker you couldn’t retire at 40 regardless and even if you could your pension would be reduced so low as to be effectively nothing. Why is that the right way to do things?
 
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NWRMidnight

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,967
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I guess my question then would be what multiple of median income you would consider acceptable for police would be then.

How much richer than the average citizen do police need to be? Right now in NYC it’s about 50%, assuming a single cop’s salary vs. an entire household. Should it be double? Three times? Four?


Right. If a police officer works from age 20 to age 40 they can retire with full benefits from their pension. If you are any other city worker you couldn’t retire at 40 regardless and even if you could your pension would be reduced so low as to be effectively nothing. Why is that the right way to do things?
No salary for any industry is based off what an average citizen makes anywhere. So why should a police officers salary be based off of what an average citizen makes? Salaries are based off cost of living and what the employment market for that industry will bare. Not what the average citizen makes. What you are doing is trying to tie a police officer's salary to an arbitrary metric.

$90k is not rich. What you are arguing is that people of New York City are really pretty poor, and you think police should be poor along with them. For gods sake, the average cost of a Studio apartment in New York City is $2500 a month.. that is $30k a year.. which is about 60% of the take home income of these median households, when it's suggested that housing should be no more than 30%. That is more telling that the police salary which is not the problem it seems. The low income of the citizens is the problem. but again, that is just an arbitrary metric.

Why is it a wrong way to do things? Specially since being a police officer is a high stress job, regardless if it is dangerous or not. There are many government jobs that you can take your full pension after 20 years. Military is a great example. I have already told you that the police are not the only ones who have such pension programs. Sorry that you don't have such offerings.. maybe you should change that? I don't know where you are getting "if they could retire at 40, there pensions would be reduced so low as to be effectively nothing". This is false.
 
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Nov 17, 2019
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"April 13 (UPI) -- The attorney general of Virginia Mark Herring said he has launched a civil rights investigation into the small police department of Windsor after a Black Army officer filed a lawsuit accusing two of its officers of using excessive force during a December traffic stop.

Herring told CNN during an interview Monday night that his Office of Civil Rights will be investigating whether there's been "a pattern of misconduct with these officers or broadly with the department as a whole."

""People of color continue to experience brutality and being pepper sprayed and even killed at the hands of law enforcement and it has got to stop," he said.

Virginia Gov. Ralph Northam on Sunday directed the Virginia State Police to investigate the traffic stop, but Herring said it is important to have an independent and unaffiliated agency to also conduct an investigation to ensure accountability and the public trust."

"Herring's office sent a letter to the police department requesting personnel records for Gutierrez and Crocker as well as all use of force complaints concerning traffic stops or discriminatory treatment based on race, color or nationality over the past decade."






Anybody notice how many cops look like the stereotypical skinhead?
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
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Also, 20 years for full pension is standard across the nation in most industries that offer retirement/pension plans. The problem is, many companies don't offer pension/retirement plans anymore outside of 401K's and such anymore.

Good luck with finding a pensioned position below executive level or even outside of government for that matter. Retirement after 20 years is government only afaik. Add in the facts that USA workforce has had stagnant wages as well as reduce 401k matching means non government employees are likely to work til they're dead.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,708
49,291
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No salary for any industry is based off what an average citizen makes anywhere.
Uhmmmm, this is emphatically untrue. Have you ever wondered why software engineers in India make less than those in America?

So why should a police officers salary be based off of what an average citizen makes? Salaries are based off cost of living and what the employment market for that industry will bare. Not what the average citizen makes. What you are doing is trying to tie a police officer's salary to an arbitrary metric.
How is tying the salary of public servants to the salary of those paying that public servant arbitrary? It is the opposite, and the cost of living in an area and what people make in it are closely tied together.

$90k is not rich. What you are arguing is that people of New York City are really pretty poor, and you think police should be poor along with them. For gods sake, the average cost of a Studio apartment in New York City is $2500 a month.. that is $30k a year.. which is about 60% of the take home income of these median households, when it's suggested that housing should be no more than 30%. That is more telling that the police salary which is not the problem it seems. The low income of the citizens is the problem. but again, that is just an arbitrary metric.
I didn’t say $90k was rich, but by any reasonable standard one person earning ~150% of the median household income (which is often two earners) for a region is paid quite well.

Also, as someone who has lived in a studio apartment in NYC your idea of what a studio in NYC costs is ludicrous. Perhaps that’s the average cost, but it’s being pulled way up by crazy high rents in Manhattan. You can find studios for almost half that price. (I just looked!)

Why is it a wrong way to do things? Specially since being a police officer is a high stress job, regardless if it is dangerous or not. There are many government jobs that you can take your full pension after 20 years. Military is a great example. I have already told you that the police are not the only ones who have such pension programs. Sorry that you don't have such offerings.. maybe you should change that? I don't know where you are getting "if they could retire at 40, there pensions would be reduced so low as to be effectively nothing". This is false.
Maybe giving everyone a pension after 20 years would be right, but it’s not remotely close to what we as a country do. It’s basically police and firefighters. Your example of the military tells me you don’t actually know how this works, because the military pension is shit after 20 years. (It’s based on base pay, which can be as little as half your take home salary)

As far as what a pension would be at 40, most non-police pension systems are similar to social security in that they have an age then consider ‘full retirement age’ and payments decrease each year prior to that. See here:

Most would not even let you retire at 40 but even if you could by this formula your payments would be near zero.

So in the end yes, for a job that only requires an associates degree police are paid very well, and their pension benefits are ludicrously generous. It’s a sweet job!
 
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Amol S.

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