What do you think: Will SCSI ever replace IDE on mainstream systems?

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thorin

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
7,573
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Originally posted by: sharkeeper
Have you been away or something ..... a replacement for the aging PCI bus (and AGP) has been in the works for years, and has been getting tonnes of press for at least the last full year. Check out PCI-X and PCI-Express . (Not to mention that there ARE current PCI standards that implement a 66MHz clock and a 64bit bus width).

What is all this bandwidth going to be used for? It will be quite a while before ANY HDD will have STR challenging even PCI 32/33. Where the bandwidth is needed (and used) is the SCSI domain. I cannot see using 4 or more flakey (READ NON SCSI) disks in RAID 0 or even RAID 5. There are a few ATA controllers (3Ware comes to mind) that are actually quite good, but ATA disks have too many inconsistencies between samples for critical ops IME. They just don't make the cut for our operation. I guess we're extremely demanding but the Cheetah has never let us down!
1) As we've said SATA controllers are moving off the PCI bus.
2) PCI is used for alot more then just disks and their controllers.
3) PCI-X and PCI-Express will not only be replacing PCI but AGP as well.
4) Alot of people use ATA RAID for high performance non-mission critical systems to save cost and max storage. (ATA RAID, SATA RAID, and/or SATA II hubs will easily kill PCI's 133MB/Sec).

Thorin
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,476
3,976
126
Originally posted by: Pariah
For all of us that use 5 year old versions of office and Adobe apps.
My office is full of 5 year old versions of Office (even though Office upgrades are free to universities, no Office program yet can beat the graphing capabilities of Office 97). My parents and the general public that bought computers before the y2k scare all have computers from about 1999, running 1999 versions of office programs. Very few people go out and spend $100+ to upgrade Word or Excel, unless they really depend on it for a living. I honestly believe the majority of home users have a computer with office programs that are that old. You can ignore all of them if you wish. But I think they are a major piece of the market. Some of those are also feeling their ~1999 computer getting old and want a little upgrade. A new ATA HD will work great with their older computers and will still be running those 1999 office programs.
So basically you're going to form an argument around numbers that you don't understand and decided to not take the time to research. Good strategy. And by "research", I mean read the heading of the chart:
I edited my post above, now that I see where you got your numbers (next time please list your source). At StorageReview, ATA drives had a temperature gain above ambient of between 13.0°C and 22.1°C - average of 18.3°C. SCSI drives there had a temperature gain above ambient of between 20.0°C and 36.6°C - average of 28.5°C. Every single ATA drive ran cooler than every single SCSI drive (With the exception of the Segate Baraacuda 36ES2 which was a tad cooler than a very few ATA drives). It is interesting that you picked the absolute hottest ATA drive in your comparison, and used one of the coolest SCSI drives. What a great comparison that was. If you had to pick two drives, at least pick the two that are the best performing. Or pick the average: 28.5°C/18.3°C = 1.557. Thus the average SCSI drive is 55.7% hotter. 55.7% does not equal 14%, and is not negligible as you claim.

Now lets look at what the HD manufacturers have to say. Seagate on Storage Technology.
(1) "approximately 25 percent of [Seagate's] R&D budget, is being applied to base recording technologies in Recording Heads, Recording Media, Motors, Advanced Concepts, Seagate Research, and emerging-market product opportunities". So if we eliminate advanced concepts, Seagate research, and the emerging market research, we are left with well under 25% of R&D goes into making the basics of the drive: recording heads, media, and motors. Of that <25%, I bet less than half is spent actually on making them cheaper (unfortunately we don't have the exact numbers). So a good estimate would be a max of ~10% of their R&D is spent on what I say home users need most: inexpensive drives.
(2) "Since the drive industry began some 40 years ago, the critical driving metric has been areal density. To assure Seagate holds the lead position in this critical race, it has dramatically increased technical spending for head and disc R&D. Since 1996, Seagate has increased spending for recording head R&D three times and for discs by nearly five times". Ok that is where the other 75% (more likely 90%) of R&D has gone. But most home consumers are at a point where we don't need or want higher density. This design goal has got to change. I want them to switch their R&D spending around. Make it 75% on cheaper parts and 25% on higher density. Heck I'd even like to see 90% on cheaper parts and 10% on higher density (and at the same time, slash the total R&D spending, so we consumers don't have to support it).
(3) "changes are coming at a time when cost has become a primary design consideration". Seagate there just said that cost wasn't a primary design consideration in the past, but finally has now become a primary design consideration. Too bad under 25% (and more likely 10%) is spent on their primary design consideration. "The company is redesigning and automating its manufacturing lines" That means this is an ongoing thing (or in other words they aren't finished yet). Thus they are still being manufactured at a higher cost than is theoretically possible with TODAY'S technology. I guess you are right Pariah, and Segate is wrong, about understanding the costs involved.
(4) "we are approaching a point where the data bearing particles are so small that random atomic level vibrations present in all materials at room temperature can cause the bits to spontaneously flip their magnetic orientation...may become a serious technology issue for new products in only two or three years...We want to make sure that...Seagate is prepared and has the ability to circumvent it; either go around, over under or through it." I'm saying we as a society don't need to deal with this problem at this point in time. The vast, vast majority of consumers right now don't need 500 GB hard drives. Maybe we will in the future, but not now. Thus I wish this R&D spending would drop - which then would slash the prices of drives.
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
What really needs to be done is increase PCI spped. Maybe have it clocked at 66MHz, but have legacy support for 33MHz components.

For those people that need that type of bandwidth, there are plenty of options in the SMP market all the way up to PCI-X 133 (not PCI Express) which is 1GB/s.

Very few people go out and spend $100+ to upgrade Word or Excel, unless they really depend on it for a living. I honestly believe the majority of home users have a computer with office programs that are that old. You can ignore all of them if you wish.

I agree, and I will ignore them too because I also believe these people are not scouring the web for HD benchmarks either trying to find which can run a script of commands in MS Word97 the fastest. Regardless I've already explained why this benchmark appears to have technical flaws in it so I see no reason to continue on with this one. Just to show you how antiquated the apps are here is a list:

Business Disk WinMark 99 "Corel WordPerfect Suite 8, Lotus SmartSuite, and of course, Microsoft Office 97) along with Netscape's Navigator."
High-End Disk WinMark 99 "AVS/Express 3.4, FrontPage 98, Microstation SE, Photoshop 4.0, Premiere 4.2, Sound Forge 4.0, and Visual C++."

It is interesting that you picked the absolute hottest ATA drive in your comparison, and used one of the coolest SCSI drives.

I picked the 2 drives I would buy which are the fastest representative in each camp based on the server benchmarks. I find the server benchmarks directly correlate to how responsive a system feels and that is the most important preformance characteristic for me. Afterall we are discussing performance here. The 180GXP does make an appearance on the SR Leaderboard along with the 2000JB so it isn't exactly a slouch in the other tests.

If you had to pick two drives, at least pick the two that are the best performing.

I did, see above.

Or pick the average: 28.5°C/18.3°C = 1.557. Thus the average SCSI drive is 55.7% hotter. 55.7% does not equal 14%, and is not negligible as you claim.

That's still a bogus comparison. You're trying to convince people that ATA has closed the gap on SCSI in performance and surpassed it in some areas and now you are trying to include sloths like the 5400RPM Samsung drives and DM 16 in the temperature average?

WD200JB, DM+9, Barracuda V, 180GXP: 20.625C
10k.6,15k.3,MAP3147,10K IV: 26.575C

Thus the average SCSI drive is 55.7% hotter. 55.7% does not equal 14%, and is not negligible as you claim.

So looking at the top 4 performing contendors from each side we find a difference of 28.8% or less than 6C which is negligble in a standard configuration, making my initial comparison still more accurate than your second attempt. I don't see why you are sohung up on the percentage comparison as it is meaningless. A 10% increase over 50C is a greater temperature increase than a 400% increase over 1C. The only number that matters is the actual temperature change.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
6
81
Don't SCSI drives use smaller platters (not the inside, slowest part) partly attributing to their lower latency and smaller platter size?
Motor costs would also be higher.
It's because of these and other reasons I would say SCSI can't really be cheaper than IDE, or match the price and capacity.
I'm not sure if the above about platters is 100% true, but I think that's something I read somewhere.
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
Yes, the higher the rotational speed, the smaller the platter.

7200RPM - 3.5"
10000RPM - 3"
15000RPM - 2.6"

Smaller platters reduce average seek time and capacity potential. Higher rotational rates reduce average latency.

Smaller platters also reduce heat, noise, and strain on the motor.
 

thorin

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
7,573
0
0
Originally posted by: Pariah
Yes, the higher the rotational speed, the smaller the platter.

7200RPM - 3.5"
10000RPM - 3"
15000RPM - 2.6"

Smaller platters reduce average seek time and capacity potential. Higher rotational rates reduce average latency.

Smaller platters also reduce heat, noise, and strain on the motor.
Do we have any linkage that details whether or not the WD Raptor uses 3" platters? Or is that an assumption we're stickin with based on SCSI trend(s)?

Thorin
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
Originally posted by: thorin
Do we have any linkage that details whether or not the WD Raptor uses 3" platters? Or is that an assumption we're stickin with based on SCSI trend(s)?

Thorin

I have not seen it in print that the platters are smaller, but all the specs point that way. A 5.2ms average seek would be extremely difficult to achieve with 3.5" platters, especially on a "budget" drive like this one. The picture of the drive on the product page basically confirms the drive is not using 3.5" platters. They look like 3".

WD Raptor Enterprise Serial ATA Hard Drive
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
A few more things on the heat issue which I hadn't thought about up until now. The temperature measurement SR lists is the highest recorded temperature they observe from different spots on the drive after 80 minutes straight of running IOMeter. Who on earth stresses the drives in their home system that hard? These are worst case scenario which few people will ever come across. Secondly, since the drives are running full out, the SCSI drives are working far harder than the ATA drives are. Here are the #'s (the server marks are IOMeter tests):

Server DriveMark 2002
15k.3 - 345 I/O's
10K IV - 271 I/O's
180GXP - 131 I/O's
2000JB - 129 I/O's

Web Server DriveMark 2002
15k.3 - 342 I/O's
10K IV - 261 I/O's
180GXP - 134 I/O's
2000JB - 115 I/O's

So basically, the SCSI drives are performing 2x the I/O's than ATA for 10K drives and 3x the I/O's for 15k drives. What this means is that if you are running an application that requires about 130 IO/sec then the ATA drive will be running full out the entire time while the 10K drive will only be active 1 out of every 2 seconds, while the 15k drive will be idle 2 out of every 3 seconds. Clearly a drive that it is idle 2/3's of time will run cooler than the same drive running full out, so depending on the work load, the SCSI drive might actually run cooler than an ATA drive.
 

XBoxLPU

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2001
4,249
1
0
Originally posted by: StattlichPassat
I won't consider it for my own personal use .

Same here...

well though I will be moving from ATA 133 to a Cobra IV 10k and scsi controller card setup at the end of this week

 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
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For those who have not had the pleasure of using, touching or hearing one, the Seagate Cheetah X15-36LP is not a hot-running drive. I have one in the HDD cage of my Antec case, which has a very mild 18dB 18CFM 80mm fan blowing through it. The drive is not even warm.

As for noise, it idles at a noise level that is basically not noticable in my office environment. I recently added a Radeon 7500 to my system and the fan on the Radeon 7500 is at least as noticable as the X15-36LP's idle noise is. We have plenty of IDE-equipped systems that idle louder. Can I hear the seeks? Yeah but it's not like the bag-of-microwave-popcorn effect of my old first-generation 10k drive. I don't expect or desire the drive to seek silently, any more than I'd buy a Dodge Viper and then put a luxury-car muffler on it to deaden the exhaust sound. And hey, the seeks are over way sooner with a 15000rpm drive too

So I would say the fluid-bearing Seagates (the X15-36LP and the 15k.3) are not going to be that hard to live with unless you're offended by audible seek noise. They're not cheap, and they are not the right thing for everyone, but I don't regret getting mine.
 

thorin

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
7,573
0
0
Originally posted by: Pariah
Originally posted by: thorin
Do we have any linkage that details whether or not the WD Raptor uses 3" platters? Or is that an assumption we're stickin with based on SCSI trend(s)?

Thorin

I have not seen it in print that the platters are smaller, but all the specs point that way. A 5.2ms average seek would be extremely difficult to achieve with 3.5" platters, especially on a "budget" drive like this one. The picture of the drive on the product page basically confirms the drive is not using 3.5" platters. They look like 3".

WD Raptor Enterprise Serial ATA Hard Drive
That's cool, I didn't mean to sound like I thought you were wrong (if that's how I sounded) I was just curious about it. And now that I've looked at that picture I'd have to agree that the platters appear to be smaller then 3.5" .

Thorin
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
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0
I find it more likely that IDE (in the form of SATA) will replace SCSI in the hi-end than SCSI would replace IDE in the low-end.
 

XBoxLPU

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2001
4,249
1
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http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030210/lam079_1.html


The rumors are true? some of them, at least .

StorageReview.com readers have been speculating for the better part of three years on when the industry would ratchet up the spindle speed of ATA hard drives. When would it happen? Which company would start the trend?

Today Western Digital announces its Raptor WD360GD, the first (Serial) ATA hard disk to feature 10,000 RPM operation. The Raptor features a single 3? platter that stores 36 gigabytes. Folks may recall that raptors were carnivorous dinosaurs that, while not as large as some other predators, nonetheless were swift, agile, and hunted in packs. WD envisions several of these drives in conjunction with an SATA RAID controller as a low-cost solution that can service the low- to mid-range enterprise storage sector.

That?s right, enterprise-class. Hence, the WD360GD features a very SCSI-like 5.2 millisecond seek time along with an 8-megabyte buffer. The firm also claims a 1.2 million hour MTBF spec and backs the drive with a 5-year warranty.

Price? Today?s current 36-gigabyte SCSI units run about $210-$220 from various resellers. WD aims to deliver the Raptor at around $160.

With no SCSI business to preserve, Western Digital emerges as the manufacturer to pull the trigger on higher-speed ATA units. The Raptor?s enterprise orientation, however, forced WD to wait for Serial ATA and its spec-level hot-swap ability.

When will we see these drives? In a conference call with SR, WD took great pains to emphasize that these drives are ready to go and that the official announcement was timed to minimize the window between the announcement itself and general availability. Look for a 1-2 month time frame. Don?t expect to find these drives sitting on the retail shelf next to the Caviar JB?s, however. The Raptor?s enterprise/server orientation means you?ll have to purchase it from the same specialty retailers that sell SCSI disks.

We?re aiming, of course, to get a sample or two as soon as possible. We?ll keep you updated on any further news and progress.

from storagereview.com
 

sharkeeper

Lifer
Jan 13, 2001
10,886
2
0
They are stretching this WAY too far!

What Enterprise would use these? Currently one cannot put more than one disk on a wire. For an entry level server one typically uses four disks. Three in RAID5 with one hot spare. That's the MINIMUM configuration! You would need a four wire SATA controller with RAID5 support. I know they're on the way but most servers have SCSI onboard so you would still have to purchase the HBA. IF a true "enterprise class" HBA is ever made, it will be expensive. I just don't see the logic in using these disks in servers. Servers use SCSI disks, end of discussion.

The RAPTOR drive IMO is about as live as the GF FX. Desktop users want capacity. Performance enthusiasts that rate performance over capacity use SCSI and still will choose that platform.

Of course as with anything, this is the first SATA 10K SATA drive so we really cannot expect much right? Do you remember the first 7200 RPM ATA disk? (Seagate Medalist Pro) That thing was a joke so...

Cheers!
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
IDE/ATA drives are getting faster. Most of us don't need their current speeds, and SATA will help out immensely. In addition, reliability is called into question, but it is cheaper to get a controller and extra drive for RAID 1 than to get a single SCSI drive of the same size!
With Promise's controller that will do a 6-drive IDE RAID 5, I wouldn't even think about going SCSI.
For the true high-end, SCSI beats IDE; period. In many ways, however, they don't, such as heat. As far as anyone talking about the drives not being warm to the touch, you did mention an Antec case, so I'm assuming chieftec, and therefore there is a 99% chance you have good airflow. It doesn't take but a single 5CFM fan over _any_ drive to effectively cool it, and a case with good rear exhaust fans and no intakes would effectively emulate that towards the front. SCSIs are hotter, but IDEs can also get very hot, though neither take much to cool them off.
The main thing is that for less than half, and sometimes 10% of the SCIS cost, I can get 75% of so of the performance. However, in constant HD-rattling usage, that can be worth the extra money for SCSI.
 

duhh

Senior member
Jul 23, 2001
325
0
0
SATA ... nuff said....
PC Vendors are always gonna go with the cheapest product available. You will notice that when PC prices started to fall from a Midrange system at like $2000-$2500 to $1000-$1500 is when mobo chipsets started incorporating more features into them. Onboard sound and Video really were the two biggies (ok well so is all the I/O being onbaord, but that happened a long time ago)
End result, I don't ever see SCSI chipsets getting cheaper than SATA/IDE, so as many of us can use SCSI as we want, but unless DELL and HP start putting it on every board, PATA/SATA is here to stay.
 

sharkeeper

Lifer
Jan 13, 2001
10,886
2
0
With Promise's controller that will do a 6-drive IDE RAID 5, I wouldn't even think about going SCSI.

Really? You don't hear of stories like this with SCSI setups!

If you NEED RAID5, you really NEED SCSI IME. It isn't worth it to try to cut corners. This guy had to pay recovery services that could have bought him a real RAID HBA and SCSI disks! :Q

Cheers!
 
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