What does Zen need to be in order to get you to buy it?

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itsmydamnation

Platinum Member
Feb 6, 2011
2,863
3,417
136
Yeah I would love for AMD to do the same,for the exact same reasons.
"Facts without data is dreams."
Yup,a lot of dreaming folks in this here forums.
That makes every scientist a dreamer.
You deliberately slant in the negative.
I prefer to look at it like a jigsaw puzzle
We have some pieces , we will know approximately what directly adjacent pieces will look like, as we get new pieces (learn more about the core and infrastructure ) our ability to predict becomes better.

What i find funny is people who try to impose a performance or IPC min/max, we dont have enough information which is why i keep asking people to back it up. What we can do is look at the information available ( basically more info then intel has released since ivy) and see if there is limitations, look at the general core philosophy and see how things align.

The one around limited clocks i find most bizarre,compared to BD the pipeline is getting deeper , interconnects/forwarding networks simpler and yet it must run much slower. Now the process will definitely play a part but i'm no where near as pessimistic on that front it has a quite wide core (M1) running @ 2.6ghz in a phone thermal budget. Now obviously that's probably in the optimal operating range for the process but do people really expect it to just hit a brick wall, why?

It's actually quite interesting look at the difference between high per/high power cores(intel,power,z,zen) and lower perf mobile cores, the biggest difference is not in execution resources but the front end. AMD already had a very big front end on bulldozer( the CMT idea of sharing the big expensive bit) they then went and castrated it with low execution resources, a horrible cache implementation/latencies and an equally as bad miss predict penalty ( 20+ cycles and pipeline length is ~15-16 stages).

That's in part why i'm optimistic about Zen, having spent quite a lot of time in learning why bulldozer was bad and then looking at Zen we see only positive single thread performance enabling changes.
 
Reactions: scannall

sirmo

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2011
1,014
391
136
~Haswell or better single thread perf.. sub $1000 price point for the 8c part. My 4770k has that lid heat transfer issue, and I can't wait to go back to AMD.
 

Yuriman

Diamond Member
Jun 25, 2004
5,530
141
106
~Haswell or better single thread perf.. sub $1000 price point for the 8c part. My 4770k has that lid heat transfer issue, and I can't wait to go back to AMD.

Intel's HEDT line have their heatspreaders soldered on.
 

Dresdenboy

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2003
1,730
554
136
citavia.blog.de
Yeah I would love for AMD to do the same,for the exact same reasons.
"Facts without data is dreams."
Yup,a lot of dreaming folks in this here forums.
Please wait for leaks or odficial reviews.

Seen from a different perspective, we have some ppl here who like to speculate (for fun, for stock markets, or to prepare buying decisions), and some others, which don't like to waste their time on that but want AMD to show the cards without signing a NDA. Of course there are more than that.
 

Dresdenboy

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2003
1,730
554
136
citavia.blog.de
~Haswell or better single thread perf.. sub $1000 price point for the 8c part. My 4770k has that lid heat transfer issue, and I can't wait to go back to AMD.
Pure ST performance might be sub par on average (e.g. due to lower clocks or 256b AVX software). Which personal use cases did you have in mind? CB, DX11 games, Linpack, SuperPi? Linpack will perform the worst here. The others at least have a chance to be on par (with help of faster mem maybe).
 

sirmo

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2011
1,014
391
136
Pure ST performance might be sub par on average (e.g. due to lower clocks or 256b AVX software). Which personal use cases did you have in mind? CB, DX11 games, Linpack, SuperPi? Linpack will perform the worst here. The others at least have a chance to be on par (with help of faster mem maybe).
ESX Cluster.. Linux VMs.. compilation and running bunch of server tasks.
 

IllogicalGlory

Senior member
Mar 8, 2013
934
346
136
There's a 0% chance of me purchasing a Zen chip for my main system. What I want is the highest possible single thread performance. I'll probably pick up some Intel chip next year or so. Would be nice if there were a competitive Zen+ chip by then though. I want a 30% uplift at least, not IPC, just performance, even if higher clockspeed is part of that equation. Maybe a 5GHz CPU with a 5-10% IPC uplift over Skylake.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
What I want is the highest possible single thread performance

Then you want an overclocked Skylake rig, like mine, then. I've got a G4400 @ 4.45, it generally kicks a, but I don't play AAA games on that rig either. I suppose an i7-6700K would be just as good or better (more cache), when overclocked similarly. I do know that on the CPU-Z benchmark, my single-threaded speeds are faster than a stock (4.0Ghz) i7-6700K, although its multi-threaded is more than double mine.
 

IllogicalGlory

Senior member
Mar 8, 2013
934
346
136
Then you want an overclocked Skylake rig, like mine, then. I've got a G4400 @ 4.45, it generally kicks a, but I don't play AAA games on that rig either. I suppose an i7-6700K would be just as good or better (more cache), when overclocked similarly. I do know that on the CPU-Z benchmark, my single-threaded speeds are faster than a stock (4.0Ghz) i7-6700K, although its multi-threaded is more than double mine.
I realize I could get a bit more by purchasing a Skylake system, but it's not worth buying new RAM, motherboard and CPU for 10%-ish more performance.

My rig also slightly beats the stock 6700K in CPU-Z (~2189 vs ~2080); it just wouldn't be enough to be worth the effort and expense to buy Skylake right now. I should have gone straight for Skylake as I purchased this about a week before they came out, but I was impatient and wasn't expecting such a respectable performance increase when Sandy/Ivy/Haswell seemed so close. Still, I got fairly good prices.
 

Dresdenboy

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2003
1,730
554
136
citavia.blog.de
ESX Cluster.. Linux VMs.. compilation and running bunch of server tasks.
Due to bigger L1I$, L2$, and probably twice as many PTWs the first two might have been on AMD's priority use case list. Compilation might be fine due to caches, too, plus a good branch misprediction penalty (op$ + checkpointing + other optimizations).

Of course this depends on final base/boost clocks.
 
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