What DX 10.1 features do you like the most?

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
I have been hearing a ton of hype from all over the forums about the enormous paradigm shift that is DX 10.1 and was curious which of the ENORMOUS new features people are most looking forward to? I would have a poll, only, I can't seem to find anything worth getting worked up over so I know I am just missing out on this enormous technological leap, obviously MS is in bed with nV to only put it as a .1, clearly from the hype it should be DX13, maybe DX14. So what is it that people are so amped over? Please list it all
 

Aberforth

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2006
1,707
1
0
Well, 10.1 is developer friendly but I'd love to see 4X AA without performance drop.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,420
293
126
What is first needed is an example of this alleged widespread hype to establish that you are not creating a strawman. If you are talking about contributors to highly reputable technical resources such as Yahoo! Answers or Experts-Exchange, well then there you go.

 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
Assassin's Creed showed a very nice performance boost in DX10.1 with AA enabled. So far that's the only evidence of what DX10.1 brings to the table.

I personally hate all things DX10 and reverted from Vista64 to XP. Some of my framerates doubled just by switching back!

Vista's got issues...it's so glitchy...
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
What is first needed is an example of this alleged widespread hype to establish that you are not creating a strawman. If you are talking about contributors to highly reputable technical resources such as Yahoo! Answers or Experts-Exchange, well then there you go.

Uhm-

I have been hearing a ton of hype from all over the forums

Should I have stated these forums? Would that have been explicit enough? As far as evidence, how many quotes you want, 50? 100? Have to give me a number. Clearly you don't read many threads on this particular board if you have missed the awe inspiring impact of DX 10.1- if you do not embrace it you are an arrogant fool

Well, 10.1 is developer friendly

Sweet, any links? I'm comfortable down to the hex level in terms of code, so please feel free to go all out with how exactly that is true on the most technical level possible.

but I'd love to see 4X AA without performance drop.

That would be interesting, but I thought the 3850, 3870, 4850 and 4870 were DX 10.1? All of them exhibit performance hits using 4x AA- I must be missing some element there.

Assassin's Creed showed a very nice performance boost in DX10.1 with AA enabled. So far that's the only evidence of what DX10.1 brings to the table.

Although that didn't actually work quite properly, the theory of it is very nice. Depending on the shader types utilized being able to AA using the shader hardware eliminates a lot of the issues surrounding applying AA to certain titles. I would consider that a valid good point of what DX10.1's potential is.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,007
2,277
136
DX9 to DX10 wasnt an enormous paradigm shift, and you expect that in DX10.1?
 

Aberforth

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2006
1,707
1
0
Originally posted by: amenx
DX9 to DX10 wasnt an enormous paradigm shift, and you expect that in DX10.1?

No, DX10 was a major change in architecture- and is based on new Windows Device Driver model , that's why implementation has been very difficult. It cannot work in XP because it is dependent on Vista's memory manager. It introduces Geometry shader with dynamic pipeline based on SM4.0, Instancing, Pre-rendering and ROC. 10.1 has improved performance, 32bit fpf, 4xaa without performance drop, cubic mapping and SM 4.1
 

shangshang

Senior member
May 17, 2008
830
0
0
Before we're even serious about talking DX 10.1, we have to have game developers and gamers alike wholly embrace DX 10.0. And to have gamers wholly embrace 10.0, we need to get them off of XP and into Vista. As it stands, gamers are finding that they are REVERTING to XP!

In the great scheme of things, DX 10.1 will be nothing but a blip on the radar. By the time enough gamers have thrown away XP and fully embraced Vista, it will be DX 11.0.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,912
2,130
126
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
but I'd love to see 4X AA without performance drop.

That would be interesting, but I thought the 3850, 3870, 4850 and 4870 were DX 10.1? All of them exhibit performance hits using 4x AA- I must be missing some element there.

If the game wasn't programmed for 10.1 then it obviously won't show any benefit.


 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Clearly you don't read many threads on this particular board if you have missed the awe inspiring impact of DX 10.1- if you do not embrace it you are an arrogant fool

I think the same could be said for PhysX and CUDA...

In light of any real price/performance advantages forum goers have had to make up differences between the HD4870 and GTX 260 based on marketing material provided by the hardware manufacturers.
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: nitromullet
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Clearly you don't read many threads on this particular board if you have missed the awe inspiring impact of DX 10.1- if you do not embrace it you are an arrogant fool

I think the same could be said for PhysX and CUDA...

In light of any real price/performance advantages forum goers have had to make up differences between the HD4870 and GTX 260 based on marketing material provided by the hardware manufacturers.

That's not really true though. CUDA is clearly showing huge benefits with Folding and there's at least proof of concept benefits shown with PhysX in UT3 and 3DMark Vantage. And that's not counting what's planned for Tesla racks in the private sector that we may never hear about. What do we have for DX10.1? The unpatched version of Assassin's Creed(*) that shows 20-25% more performance with AA.






(*) And also exhibits graphical artifacting.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Assassin's Creed showed a very nice performance boost in DX10.1 with AA enabled. So far that's the only evidence of what DX10.1 brings to the table.

I personally hate all things DX10 and reverted from Vista64 to XP. Some of my framerates doubled just by switching back!

Vista's got issues...it's so glitchy...

Assassin creed showed a 20% performance boost because a bug in their DX10.1 implementation caused it to not render some things, just like nvidia released a buggy driver that give a 25% boost to crysis by not rendering some things in the water, got called a cheat, and quickly fixed it... Ubisoft turned DX10.1 support off instead of fixing it, you are lucky they did, because normally ubisoft does not release ANY patches, no matter HOW needed.
Every review site exposed that bug. I am shocked that when it was nVidia it was "nVidia cheating", but when it is AMD it is "nVidia conspiring to destroy the future of gaming".

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
I have been hearing a ton of hype from all over the forums about the enormous paradigm shift that is DX 10.1 and was curious which of the ENORMOUS new features people are most looking forward to? I would have a poll, only, I can't seem to find anything worth getting worked up over so I know I am just missing out on this enormous technological leap, obviously MS is in bed with nV to only put it as a .1, clearly from the hype it should be DX13, maybe DX14. So what is it that people are so amped over? Please list it all

Name ONE such feature.
1. DX10.1 brings exactly three things to the table:
Cards will have to support MSAA 4x (most do already, this is just a requirement, like saying a "ready for vista machine" has to have X GB of ram)
2. Shader Model 4.1 (compared to 4.0), no site I read specified what it actually improves.
3. Bicubic Light Mapping.

Originally posted by: Aberforth
Well, 10.1 is developer friendly but I'd love to see 4X AA without performance drop.

DX10.1 requires that the card BE CAPABLE of doing 4x MSAA if the game requires it to, there is no improvement to AA performance whatsoever, it is simply a requirement to support it, all new cards from both camps already support 4x AA, but I am not sure.
This is a DX10.1 requirement that has already been provided before DX10, it is just there to ensure new cards meet it and servers no purpose.

EDITED: I removed the wikipedia link because for some reason people thought ANYTHING in my post had come from wikipedia (since when is wiki that technical?) and that it somehow made it invalid.

DX10.1 also brings SM4.1 (no clue what that improves over SM4.0), and adds a new command... Bi cubic Sampling. Which could, with a lot of work, be more efficient use of the cards power, but will require a lot of implementation work for benefitting only specific cards. Even if nvidia makes all its new cards support it, there are tons of DX10 only cards...

Also, I presented EXACT DATES that completely annihilate the "MS and NVidia conspired to screw ati with DX10.1" conspiracy theory.


This thread is inflammatory, I am disappointed in you BenSkywalker, unless you are being sarcastic that is...
 

ronnn

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
3,918
0
71
Lets see when games come out before we start trolling. Anandtech and Elite Bastards certainly expressed disappointment in nvidia for not supporting it and I assumed they had good reasons. If you have a site that has better education on this subject, would be happy to read it.


edit: Certainly implementation is being held back by Nvidia's lack of compliant hardware.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
91
I dual boot with Vista 64 just so I can play CoH in DX10. And to be honest, I wasnt that impressed from 9-10. And to be honest, I cant find any other damn games I like that even use DX10.

DX10.1 is like physx right now. Looks good on paper, may be practical in the future, but you just arent getting anything from it as of today. Kind of sounds like quad-core, eh?
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
What is first needed is an example of this alleged widespread hype to establish that you are not creating a strawman. If you are talking about contributors to highly reputable technical resources such as Yahoo! Answers or Experts-Exchange, well then there you go.

Uhm-
Yahoo answers as a credible source for in depth technical data? I avoid netspeak but this can only be summed up with: LOL!

I have been hearing a ton of hype from all over the forums

Should I have stated these forums? Would that have been explicit enough? As far as evidence, how many quotes you want, 50? 100? Have to give me a number. Clearly you don't read many threads on this particular board if you have missed the awe inspiring impact of DX 10.1- if you do not embrace it you are an arrogant fool

It is a well known F. A. C. T = FACT! that people posting their opinion on forums, without even posting any tests they did personally to back it up (if you performed tests yourself, you don't need to link a professional), are pure fact. In fact, you can get such pure facts by counting how many people hold which opinion, maybe have a "fact vote".

Well, 10.1 is developer friendly

Sweet, any links? I'm comfortable down to the hex level in terms of code, so please feel free to go all out with how exactly that is true on the most technical level possible.
Developers just LOVE writing extra engines that do the same thing... they already have to write a bunch of functions for DC9, AND DX10 seperately, now they can write different functions for DX10.1. HURRAH!

Assassin's Creed showed a very nice performance boost in DX10.1 with AA enabled. So far that's the only evidence of what DX10.1 brings to the table.

Although that didn't actually work quite properly, the theory of it is very nice. Depending on the shader types utilized being able to AA using the shader hardware eliminates a lot of the issues surrounding applying AA to certain titles. I would consider that a valid good point of what DX10.1's potential is.

Crysis showed a bigger performance boost when nvidia released drivers with a bug that cause it not to render some water... oh wait that was CHEATING, this time it is a conspiracy to keep AMD down...



I really don't get the whole mentality of "the underdog is a saint, the rich are evil". Not to even go into how rich AMD is, and that the roles WERE reversed in the past, those are companies out there to make a buck, both of them.
YOUR DEALER IS NOT YOUR FRIEND!
 

Aberforth

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2006
1,707
1
0
Originally posted by: taltamir
Originally posted by: Aberforth
Well, 10.1 is developer friendly but I'd love to see 4X AA without performance drop.

DX10.1 requires that the card BE CAPABLE of doing 4x MSAA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multisample_anti-aliasing) if the game requires it to, there is no improvement to AA performance whatsoever, it is simply a requirement to support it, all new cards from both camps already support 4x AA, but I am not sure.
This is a DX10.1 requirement that has already been provided before DX10, it is just there to ensure new cards meet it and servers no purpose.

DX10.1 also brings SM4.1 (no clue what that improves over SM4.0), and adds a new command... Bi cubic Sampling. Which could, with a lot of work, be more efficient use of the cards power, but will require a lot of implementation work for benefitting only specific cards. Even if nvidia makes all its new cards support it, there are tons of DX10 only cards...

Also, I presented EXACT DATES that completely annihilate the "MS and NVidia conspired to screw ati with DX10.1" conspiracy theory.


This thread is inflammatory, I am disappointed in you BenSkywalker

Please don't quote information from Wiki, anyone can go there, click edit button and put whatever they want. Anyway your information about DX10.1 is inaccurate.

Now Let me put DX10.1 features listed in MSDN ( http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-u...y/bb694530(VS.85).aspx )


Direct3D 10.1 Features

Direct3D 10.1 extends the feature set of Direct3D 10.0 with the following new features:

* Blend Modes - Independent blend modes per render target using the new blend-state interface (see ID3D10BlendState1 Interface). Dual source blending operations are restricted to render target slot 0; you may not write to other outputs or have any render targets bound to slots other than slot 0.

* Culling Behavior - Zero-area faces are automatically culled; this affects wireframe rendering only.

* Floating Point Rules - Uses the same IEEE-754 rules for floating-point EXCEPT 32-bit floating point operations have been tightened to produce a result within 0.5 unit-last-place (0.5 ULP) of the infinitely precise result. This applies to addition, subtraction, and multiplication. (accuracy to 0.5 ULP for multiply, 1.0 ULP for reciprocal).

* Formats - The precision of float16 blending has increased to 0.5 ULP. Blending is also required for UNORM16/SNORM16/SNORM8 formats.

* Multisample Anti-Aliasing - Multisampling has been enhanced to generalize coverage based transparency and make multisampling work more effectively with multi-pass rendering. To achieve this, all multisample semantics are defined as if the pixel shader always runs once per sample (sample-frequency), computing a separate color per sample. If a pixel shader doesn't use any per-sample attributes, then it will compute the same value for each covered sample in a pixel. In that case, it is equivalent to the hardware executing the shader once per pixel (pixel-frequency), replicating the result to all covered samples. Naturally, running at pixel-frequency always produces the same results as running the same shader at sample-frequency, when the attributes are sampled at a pixel-frequency. The PSInvocations pipeline statistic increments at sample-frequency unless the shader is running at pixel-frequency.

* Pipeline Stage Bandwidth - Increased the amount of data that can be passed between shader stages:

* Rasterization Rules - The rules for rasterization have changed for lines, in addition, new functionality has been added.

o MultisampleEnable only affects line rasterization (points and triangles are unaffected), and is used to choose a line drawing algorithm. This means that some multisample rasterization from Direct3D 10 are no longer supported.


The new features require a 10.1 device type (see ID3D10Device1 Interface) which can be created by calling D3D10CreateDevice1, or you can create the device and swap chain at the same time by calling D3D10CreateDeviceAndSwapChain1.

In Windows Vista Service Pack 1, Direct3D 10.0 and Direct3D 10.1 DLLs exist side-by-side on the system. To access 10.1 features, do either of the following:
Accessing 10.1 Features on Vista Gold and Vista Service Pack 1

Developers that wish to support Vista Gold as well as SP1 will have to account for the lack of the new 10.1 API extensions on Vista Gold. Both DXUT and D3DX10 will provide convenience functions to create the appropriate device, based on the DLLs available on the system and the available hardware (10.0 or 10.1). The 10.1 device inherits from the 10.0 device, and can be retrieved using QueryInterface(). It is recommended that each application keeps track of the device type and maintains a pointer to the 10.1 device (if available) to avoid frequent QueryInterface calls when 10.1 functionality is desired. Likewise, where 10.1 resource views and state objects are associated by an application's custom class, it is recommended that the application track whether the object is a 10.0 or 10.1 type to avoid redundant QueryInterface() calls. D3DX10 includes a set of utility functions to simplify this process (see D3DX10CreateDevice and D3DX10CreateDeviceAndSwapChain).
Accessing 10.1 Features on Vista Service Pack 1 Exclusively

Some developers may choose to require Vista Service Pack 1, which will be distributed broadly to end-users and includes a series of improvements outside of Direct3D 10.1. These developers can use the Direct3D 10.1 headers and libraries exclusively, taking a dependency on the Direct3D 10.1 DLLs which support both 10.0 and 10.1 hardware (some calls may fail, however, on 10.0 devices where the new functionality is not supported).


 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
I didn't quote a single word from wiki, I linked it so that you will be able to read up on what multi sample AA is.
If you checked the link you would have seen that NOTHING I said in that post came from wiki.

Some developers may choose to require Vista Service Pack 1, which will be distributed broadly to end-users and includes a series of improvements outside of Direct3D 10.1. These developers can use the Direct3D 10.1 headers and libraries exclusively, taking a dependency on the Direct3D 10.1 DLLs which support both 10.0 and 10.1 hardware (some calls may fail, however, on 10.0 devices where the new functionality is not supported).

Translation to english: you don't need to write seperate code for DX10.1, just use it and it will work on both DX10 and 10.1 hardware... except when it FAILS, oops!


Also, i don't see where it says AA suddenly becomes a free operation.
 

Aberforth

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2006
1,707
1
0
Originally posted by: taltamir
I didn't quote a single word from wiki, I linked it so that you will be able to read up on what multi sample AA is.
If you checked the link you would have seen that NOTHING I said in that post came from wiki.


Also, i don't see where it says AA suddenly becomes a free operation.

That depends on your GPU and it's drivers, but the API itself won't impact the performance largely.Read this again "multisampling has been enhanced to generalize coverage based transparency and make multisampling work more effectively with multi-pass rendering."

It's also very nice of you to educate me about MSAA but I already knew it- since my job involves writing application modules based on D3D.

 

schneiderguy

Lifer
Jun 26, 2006
10,769
52
91
Originally posted by: taltamir

Assassin creed showed a 20% performance boost because a bug in their DX10.1 implementation caused it to not render some things

No, it allowed them to skip a rendering pass. There's a reason why the performance improvement only shows up when you turn on MSAA.

Also, I'm halfway through the game and I haven't seen any rendering bugs.



 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
Originally posted by: chizow
Originally posted by: nitromullet
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Clearly you don't read many threads on this particular board if you have missed the awe inspiring impact of DX 10.1- if you do not embrace it you are an arrogant fool

I think the same could be said for PhysX and CUDA...

In light of any real price/performance advantages forum goers have had to make up differences between the HD4870 and GTX 260 based on marketing material provided by the hardware manufacturers.

That's not really true though. CUDA is clearly showing huge benefits with Folding and there's at least proof of concept benefits shown with PhysX in UT3 and 3DMark Vantage. And that's not counting what's planned for Tesla racks in the private sector that we may never hear about. What do we have for DX10.1? The unpatched version of Assassin's Creed(*) that shows 20-25% more performance with AA.






(*) And also exhibits graphical artifacting.

Yep, exactly... In light of any real price/performance advantages forum goers have had to make up differences between the HD4870 and GTX 260 based on marketing material provided by the hardware manufacturers.

Ok, so maybe F@H... It might be important to some.

But, when you have to use "proof-of-concept" or "Tesla rack" in your list of benefits, it doesn't really translate to real price/performance advantage IMO. I'm not arguing that DX10.1 is any better mind you. The only reason we care about these things that barely matter is because the competing products are so close to each other in terms of price/performance.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: Ocguy31
I dual boot with Vista 64 just so I can play CoH in DX10. And to be honest, I wasnt that impressed from 9-10. And to be honest, I cant find any other damn games I like that even use DX10.

DX10.1 is like physx right now. Looks good on paper, may be practical in the future, but you just arent getting anything from it as of today. Kind of sounds like quad-core, eh?

Weird, i get a 100% performance increase in nero vision going from dual to quad
 

Intelman07

Senior member
Jul 18, 2002
969
0
0
Originally posted by: ronnn
Lets see when games come out before we start trolling. Anandtech and Elite Bastards certainly expressed disappointment in nvidia for not supporting it and I assumed they had good reasons. If you have a site that has better education on this subject, would be happy to read it.


edit: Certainly implementation is being held back by Nvidia's lack of compliant hardware.

If the 48xx series ends up selling well, will that change anything?
 

Intelman07

Senior member
Jul 18, 2002
969
0
0
Originally posted by: schneiderguy
Originally posted by: taltamir

Assassin creed showed a 20% performance boost because a bug in their DX10.1 implementation caused it to not render some things

No, it allowed them to skip a rendering pass. There's a reason why the performance improvement only shows up when you turn on MSAA.

Also, I'm halfway through the game and I haven't seen any rendering bugs.

DX 10.1 MSAA performance increase is certainly welcome.
 

ronnn

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
3,918
0
71
Originally posted by: Intelman07
Originally posted by: ronnn
Lets see when games come out before we start trolling. Anandtech and Elite Bastards certainly expressed disappointment in nvidia for not supporting it and I assumed they had good reasons. If you have a site that has better education on this subject, would be happy to read it.


edit: Certainly implementation is being held back by Nvidia's lack of compliant hardware.

If the 48xx series ends up selling well, will that change anything?

It might encourage developers to implement it.
 
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