What exactly causes MPG to decrease as the car gets older?

[sontakke]

Kudos to Jedi for that Redline link! Are they running special or is this their standard price? I had never been able to find it to so cheap with free shipping. Has anybody did a comparison between Redline SI-1 and 3M concentrate? I have not used Redline for at least a decade. So far, 3M has been my most potent cleaner beating Regane and Techron. I hope Redline measures up.


Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggggggg

BAD DEAL BAD DEAL

THIS IS THE WRONG SIZE; the regular bottle is $9 (15-oz)

The one linked in is 4-oz, a TINY bottle :-(

 

[SpatiallyAware]

What type of EGR system is on that mazda? Ford engines in particular have been known in the past for crappy EGR setups that get plugged and cause fuel mileage to go down. If you noticed this around 80-100k miles that'd be my bet on the problem.

Also my personal experience with older fords (late 90's early 2000's) is that the sensors can be off by enough to cause mpg and even slightly rough running but not they're not bad enough to cause a CEL. I've started only buying napa or OEM sensors after discovering even new sensors that were pretty far off.

You can sometimes 'kinda sorta' fix it by using seafoam, which breaks down all the carbon so it gets sucked into the motor and burned. I'm on the fence about the benefits of getting rid of carbon vs downsides of the engine burning carbon or possible carbon chunks get sucked in. I've used seafoam and it's cleaned EGR systems enough to make it run better but it was just as bad after a few months. I feel like this is more of a "I'm about to sell my car and it runs rough" type of fix and not so much of a "I plan on keeping this car another 5 years and need the motor etc to last as long as possible" sorta thing. No doubt that it breaks down carbon and cleans stuff out though

If it were me, I'd look into EGR stuff and consider pulling the intake manifold or whatnot if necessary to clean it (or have it cleaned by a radiator shop). If it were an older car or a motor with lower tolerances then I'd use seafoam.

I'd also definitely run 2-3 cycles of concentrated fuel cleaner.. I prefer chevron w/ techron, I wait until I'm at about 1/2 a tank before using it.

IMO there really isn't much that can cause mpg losses as far as drivetrain. If a bearing or u-joint were dry and/or wearing out enough to cause a ~3500lb vehicle to incur a 10% mpg loss then it'd fail pretty quickly - at least over a couple thousand miles.

It sounds like you have over 100k miles.. If you haven't done a full tune-up in the last 60k I'd probably go ahead and do one. Air filter, fuel filter (important!), plugs, wires, flush brake fluid, etc etc etc if you're planning on keeping the car awhile.


......but again, my bet is egr system.

 

[Bartman39]

Oh you can use seafoam but it will be hella uneffective in the gas as it does not contain the prime ingredient "PEA" . You do not need to belive me. Feel free to read the forums over at bobistheoilguy.com

And come to your own conclusions.

I will only choose a PEA contained fuel cleaner, I wont put any other stuff in my tank

Well after doing alot of reading on Redline w/PEA and the make up of Seafoam I dont see much of a difference as both are designed to do the same thing and from past use of Seafoam and knowing it has a Naphtha compound along with Isopropanol and Pale oil for a lubricant then I will keep on recommending it to anyone for either gas or diesel engines... As for everyday use I would add it every other tank or every 3rd tank after either getting the system cleaned or use it in every tank for a few weeks...

To each his own but do know it works in anything I have used it in... Also not doubting Redline works too but Seafoam has been around alot longer... Just another note I catch Seafoam ON SALE in the 16oz can for $6.49 at Orielly`s so the price is good too...

 

[soccerballtux]

i put in new spark plugs.
hm.. didnt change the wires.

thought gas nowadays were mandated to have detergent so fuel injectors stay clean?
should i go by the red bottle of STP fuel injector cleaner?

if the converter insides isnt melted, then i can eliminate it as a reason my mpg has decreased?

I do not believe wires are the problem, mechanical engineers care to explain? Plugs need voltage, not current.

I believe lost economy is due to loss of compression thanks to degrading piston rings, combined with injectors (possible...but idk). That said, my economy went on 25.5 for one tank....back to 28.5 with another one, back to 25...common between the tanks at 25 was headlights on the entire way. I think it's odd that this would hurt fuel economy that bad though. I also got 25.5 mpg when I needed to change my oil. Really hard to pin down why...still investigating.

 

[JEDI]

This the seafoam (16oz for $10) everyone is talking about?
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/we...-Seafoam_6410004-P_N3233_T%7CGRP2030C____

techron 20oz $10
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product__7080568-P_N3232_T|GRP2030C____

20% off codes make it $8 for either

 

[thescreensavers]

i ordered one.

or do i need to do this for more than 1 tank for results on fuel injectors?

Read below and yea right before you fill up put the shock dose in. How big is your gas tank?

Kudos to Jedi for that Redline link! Are they running special or is this their standard price? I had never been able to find it to so cheap with free shipping. Has anybody did a comparison between Redline SI-1 and 3M concentrate? I have not used Redline for at least a decade. So far, 3M has been my most potent cleaner beating Regane and Techron. I hope Redline measures up.


Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggggggg

BAD DEAL BAD DEAL

THIS IS THE WRONG SIZE; the regular bottle is $9 (15-oz)

The one linked in is 4-oz, a TINY bottle :-(

Nice catch, thays the motorcycle sized bottle bah why would they have the normal bottle picture there lol.

The normal one is like 15-16 oz

 

[Zenmervolt]

Cold air has more density then warm.

That's a relatively small difference.

The main reasons are much longer warm-up periods (the engine runs in open-loop warm-up mode much longer in the winter) and reformulated winter-blend gasoline which has antifreeze (in sufficiently cold climates anyway, and not the same antifreeze as is in your coolant, just to be clear) and therefore less energy per unit volume than summer-blend gasoline.

Also, automatic transmissions have warm-up periods too. Many will not engage torque converter lockup until the transmission fluid reaches operating temps and this takes longer in winter, so you spend the first part of your drive without the lockup clutch engaging, which puts a decent hurt on mileage for the first few minutes of the drive.

Then throw in thicker oil (in the engine and transmission) due to cold temps and it's easy to see that there are a lot of factors coming into play to make winter mileage drop.

ZV

 

[thescreensavers]

Well after doing alot of reading on Redline w/PEA and the make up of Seafoam I dont see much of a difference as both are designed to do the same thing and from past use of Seafoam and knowing it has a Naphtha compound along with Isopropanol and Pale oil for a lubricant then I will keep on recommending it to anyone for either gas or diesel engines... As for everyday use I would add it every other tank or every 3rd tank after either getting the system cleaned or use it in every tank for a few weeks...

To each his own but do know it works in anything I have used it in... Also not doubting Redline works too but Seafoam has been around alot longer... Just another note I catch Seafoam on sale in the 16oz can for $6.50 at Orielly`s so the price is good too...

To each and his own for sure but If seafoam was an effective fuel system cleaner why would a whole forum (BITOG) advise against it and advise for a PEA contained fluid for fuel system cleaning?

 

[Bartman39]

To each and his own for sure but If seafoam was an effective fuel system cleaner why would a whole forum (BITOG) advise against it and advise for a PEA contained fluid for fuel system cleaning?

Thats pretty simple... Un not a sponser of the site... :hmm: Also there are sites all over that have pro`s and con`s to every product out there... Again its just a choice...


soccerballtux... The insulation of the plug wires degrades with time, heat and with the core made from carbon impregnated fiber (resistive type material) the voltage bleeds off to the plugs as the insulation basicly wears out... Think of it this way if it did not happen then why would we ever have to change plug wires...? Heck even the Ford design coil/plug boot goes bad this is mainly due to heat and degrading of the insulation of the extended boot...

JEDI...? Uh think I said it can be bought for $6.49 on sale which is about every couple of months at Orielly`s... I wait for then and stock up or buy it by the gallon which is cheaper too... Think I paid $42 for a gallon which puts it around $5.50 per pint (16oz)...

 

[thescreensavers]

Thats pretty simple... Un not a sponser of the site... :hmm: Also there are sites all over that have pro`s and con`s to every product out there... Again its just a choice...

Redline is not the only product that has PEA, plus many people on there use seafoam but just not in the gas. So its not like everyone on there hates seafoam. Its just not effective in the fuel system as a PEA contained cleaner is.

Lets take this convo to PMing.

 

[thescreensavers]

This the seafoam (16oz for $10) everyone is talking about?
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/we...-Seafoam_6410004-P_N3233_T%7CGRP2030C____

techron 20oz $10
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product__7080568-P_N3232_T|GRP2030C____

20% off codes make it $8 for either

make sure its the plus version of techron, the other stuff is just a watered down version.

 

[disappoint]

Question: Are these cleaners including seafoam also recommended for cars with turbo? Is it ok to put seafoam into the intake plenum of a turbo engine?

 

[JEDI]

hm.. whats the diff between fuel system cleaner (like redline/seafoam/Gumout Regane $5) and fuel injector cleaner?

they both go in the gas tank and mix w/the gas.

 

[Bartman39]

Question: Are these cleaners including seafoam also recommended for cars with turbo? Is it ok to put seafoam into the intake plenum of a turbo engine?

Yes and Yes... But not in the intake of a Diesel car/truck=bad news...:\


JEDI... Not sure from what I can tell they dont have an MSDS sheet on their products (dont know whats in it)...? Pictures are for shcit except for the injector pic`s which are a good example of what I was talking about way early in this thread...


thescreensavers... PM back to ya... Sorry but have been off playing with my new KIWI OBDII bluetooth Interface tool which interfaces with my Droid X using the program Torque... Its pretty cool but needs work, may try other programs...?

 

[ElFenix]

26/21 in a compact car, seriously?

mazda3 isn't exactly a featherweight.

 

[x-alki]

JEDI... Not sure from what I can tell they dont have an MSDS sheet on their products (dont know whats in it)...? Pictures are for shcit except for the injector pic`s which are a good example of what I was talking about way early in this thread...

http://msds.walmartstores.com/cache/601221.pdf

 

[kornphlake]

To each and his own for sure but If seafoam was an effective fuel system cleaner why would a whole forum (BITOG) advise against it and advise for a PEA contained fluid for fuel system cleaning?

PEA is the buzzword at BITOG forums for the same reason everybody at AT Garage wants a Ford Focus, Subaru Impreza or Lotus Elise: Group think.

 

[Bartman39]

http://msds.walmartstores.com/cache/601221.pdf

Wow...! $5 for a small bottle of Kerosine...? Think you would be better off to add a pint of good 2 stroke oil instead as it has detergents built in and is designed to burn ashless (synthetic blends are)...

 

[LTC8K6]

Unless you have a symptom that indicates that your fuel injectors are dirty, you don't need any additives.

Just use a good brand of gasoline. All the well known brands have all the additives you need to keep your fuel system and injectors clean.

Unless you have a special situation, you don't need to add anything to your fuel.

 

[thescreensavers]

http://msds.walmartstores.com/cache/601221.pdf

What people say from eamiling the company and stuff is that Gumout Regan has not change its formula but the company changed the MSDS to omit PEA. No one knows why, same for the Techron stuff the old MSDS had PEA but now the new one omits it. You know Techron still has PEA as if you go to Chevrons site they talk about it.

I personally would only use Redline Si-1 but since its only found at pepboys it might be hard to find if you did not have a pepboys near you.

thescreensavers... PM back to ya... Sorry but have been off playing with my new KIWI OBDII bluetooth Interface tool which interfaces with my Droid X using the program Torque... Its pretty cool but needs work, may try other programs...?

Heh its cool, you using Tourqe? I been wondering if I should buy one of those bluetooth things.

PEA is the buzzword at BITOG forums for the same reason everybody at AT Garage wants a Ford Focus, Subaru Impreza or Lotus Elise: Group think.

ok lets say you are right but,

Redline and Amsoil for instance are known in the industry for some of the best oils and products. Their Products for fuel system cleaning contain PEA so there has to be a reason why its in there and a big chunk of their products has PEA. 30-50% for redline and 28-37% for Amsoil.

 

[Bartman39]

thescreensavers... Like it for sure been playing with it and of course almost had a wreck not paying attention...:biggrin: Works quite well with my Dmax except for a few minor things dont register but Torque is geared mainly for gas engines but should come out with a Diesel version I hope... Well worth the money...

 

[sontakke]

If you really want the highest concentrated PEA product, get the 3M Concentrated Fuel System Cleaner

 

[T2urtle]

To each and his own for sure but If seafoam was an effective fuel system cleaner why would a whole forum (BITOG) advise against it and advise for a PEA contained fluid for fuel system cleaning?

not saying they are wrong or right but just because ONE whole forum is hate/love a product doesn't mean its good.

i still roam around forums that believe normal short ram intakes are great for 5whp. our G35driver is about 80% sold on grounding kits. There are a lot of forums that do like seafoam, mainly the american make car forums i'm part of. All it really takes is about 5 guys to try, like it and promote it and shortly the whole board will jump on if it sounds good in theory.

I've soaked some parts in seafoam, like EGR parts and it cleaned out some of the build up. Now i'm not saying if i used any old part cleaner it would do the same thing, I'm just saying Seafoam did the job i needed it to do in this case. You cant say XX fluid will do a better job. I'm used to using BG44k per 20 gal tank and saw 2 MPG increase, i was told later its about 80% kerosene. It never mattered to me because i got them for free. But if i had to pay $15-20/can for that stuff to get 2 MPG i rather not. This is 100% based of what i saw and used in my old 98 maxima, i had 22MPG mixed driving and 24-25MPG when i used a can of BG44k. I did it on and off the whole year and saw the gains/loses.

 

[thescreensavers]

If you really want the highest concentrated PEA product, get the 3M Concentrated Fuel System Cleaner

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=SSSSSuUn_zu8l00xMxmZO8teNv70k17zHvu9lxtD7SSSSSS--

oh I did not know that the 3m stuff had PEA, Its 30-60. Redline is 30-50 so they both have high %

not saying they are wrong or right but just because ONE whole forum is hate/love a product doesn't mean its good.

Your right, and a great example is the grounding kits and intakes for the G as you don't gain anything from these. But word of mouth says they are better blahblah.

So not arguing here about that.

I've soaked some parts in seafoam, like EGR parts and it cleaned out some of the build up.

Seafoam does contain Naphtha so thats why it cleaned some build up, but in the fuel that's really the only ingredient that has cleaning power. While for example redline has PEA and Naphtha.


Check out the end of post #45. Its not really only a forum talking about it, its also reputable companies using it as well.

Also the thing is BITOG is the only forum of its kind so there really isnt any doubt to what the general consensus is there. As you see almost every forum channeling into theirs about Auto Fluid related things.

 

[Gibson486]

40 psi on the tires? Read the sticker on the door. I am sure it tells you to do less than that...although mine is the 2.3L with 17inch money wasters.

Also, if this is the big 2.3L, how did you get that mileage with an auto? I have taken straight highways trips for 400 miles and I had to refill before I got there. The highest I ever got was 31 mpg on highway driving, and that was driving like a grandma.