What is a LIVING WAGE? Representative Katie Porter Stumps JPMorgan Chase’s CEO with question about his own employee's salary

[Zor Prime]

Used to be paid by JPM for a decade. Didn't have to work there, I chose to. Lived within my means, didn't ask for handouts. If I didn't have funds for cable TV, I cut cable TV for a month or two or a year. If I wanted to make more money I would have done something about it -- I didn't.

I'll never understand why people ask for free stuff or handouts when we're capable of getting whatever we want with enough determination. There are many ways, and not all are easy. Some even require you to get off the couch or chair. It isn't some revelation or epiphany.

 

[Zor Prime]

These threads always gnaw at me because I pulled my self out of the gutter and built something from it. Every ones always talking about pulling yourself up by your boot straps like its a joke, I know it isn't because I did it.

If you notice you had 2 thumbs down and 1 snooze applied to your post by people on this forum. I gave you a thumbs up.

The general tilt here overall leans left by a hefty amount. I only come around here because I've been here since the site went up, if I walked in today or anytime over the past so many years I'd been like hell naw these are some of the biggest bunch of whiners who don't want to lift a finger to help themselves and all they do is complain, complain, and then complain some more.

Tell you what man, I grew up with an outhouse. Spring water from a hose stuck in the side of a hill. People got iPhone 32 and think they're due iPhone 34 for free and their service bill should probably be subsidized by the government. It's pathetic, the entitled BS. I grew up with chickens perched on the front doorway, man, and people think things are so bad. Some might truly be, but I don't buy all of it.

Many have no hunger for self betterment. Drive. Ambition. Not willing to take calculated risks. Not willing to fail so they can learn. Not willing to make hard calls and defer it to someone else.

The staggering irresponsibility of leaving your future in the government's hands is so alien to me. Smart decisions, the best you can do anyway, and fiscal responsibility can take you far.

I didn't even graduate HS, let alone attend college. I DO have a HS diploma today (because I wanted one before my oldest graduated just to say I had one, it did actually bug me).

I'll tell you what I did instead of being told what I should and shouldn't be doing, what I did instead of being told what to think or not think, I got off my rear end.

I worked. Ground level. Worked myself up. Networked. Moved around. Went from the country to the city where the jobs were. I've lived in neighborhoods where streets had nicknames like Uzi Alley, and for good reason. Learned how to talk and communicate with all forms of life, and calling some people forms of life is a compliment perhaps undue. Education? I learned by instruction in the field or taught myself solo and you want to know how much that cost me? It cost my attention and not a single dollar.

Now I do what I want, largely went I want, how I want, because people know I'm going to get it done and I'm compensated for it. I show up. I've literally never taken a sick day in my life. At my current workplace I've almost accrued 200 hours of sick leave and you won't find me using any of it short of an epic disaster. People can't even show up and expect the world to fall in their lap. It doesn't work that way. Show up and try to do the same thing better than everyone else around you ... invariably, some year, someone is going to notice.

So, yea. Thumbs up. Thanks for being a positive aspect of our society, it is appreciated.

 

[ivwshane]

Assuming we are not going UBI yet and we actually want to address minimum wage intelligently, Bernie and company need to realize it is a bit more complicated than just raising the minimum wage across the board. Forcing companies to pay students $15 an hours to spit on peoples' burgers is bad policy.

No. We need a two-tiered minimum wage, one for part-time/temporary work and another for full-time/career work. Then you need solid regulations preventing companies from forcing people who want full-time jobs into part-time positions just so they can save money.

This of course doesn't even address the issue of people expecting someone to pay them a livable wage for doing work that monkeys could be trained to do. The reality is that most jobs are going to be automated away no matter what we do. All the more incentive to start planning a transition to UBI, IMO.

Minimum wage is definitely not the end all be all for tackling wealth inequality but I don't think UBI is either. UBI raises happiness but it doesn't do much else (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). I really think a better tax policy is part of the answer, universal health care that's not tied to ones employer is another part. Education, housing and infrastructure also all play a part.

In the distant future UBI would probably be the answer but to get to that point automation would need to be closer to 100% along with an automated or AI based service/retail industry. At that point though, things such as the point of existence will have to be discussed and recalibrated.

 

[alcoholbob]

You can't force these places to pay a living wage. All the living wage is going to do is make these companies outsource overseas or go completely automated even more than they already are. The remaining jobs will go to the most qualified which would probably be someone with a college degree since there will be stiff competition for what's left. Sucks but we aren't going to force these mega corporations to do anything.

There's a lot of work that can't be automated anytime soon or outsourced. The reason those jobs aren't paying a living wage despite a tight labor market is due to the fact that the government no longer enforces competition law and has allowed so many mergers that 70% of industries in the U.S. has become de-facto monopolies. This leaves most big employers as price setters in the labor market (classic monopsony).

The other issue is the lack of strong collective bargaining. Generally 1/3 of labor price is due to supply and demand, 2/3 from bargaining power. Bargaining power is why an unskilled blue collar worker working on the docks in CA make on average $186,000, while someone doing similarly un-skilled work elsewhere in the country might only make $40,000 a year.

 

[Jaskalas]

Minimum wage is definitely not the end all be all for tackling wealth inequality but I don't think UBI is either. UBI raises happiness but it doesn't do much else (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). I really think a better tax policy is part of the answer, universal health care that's not tied to ones employer is another part. Education, housing and infrastructure also all play a part.

In terms of total, annual, personal income. It'll take a total tax rate between 40-50% (or other taxed amount equivalent to it) to add Healthcare on top of the existing discussion. UBI alone needs about a 25% tax to be deficit neutral. So yes, taxes must absolutely be part of the plan. And per the OP's example it doesn't do much good without also tackling housing.

College education is an interesting issue as we haven't even begun to fully utilize the revolution of the internet's existence in that regard. For most professions it can be orders of magnitude cheaper than it is today to simply share knowledge. We have to tackle redefining the College experience before we can fully fund it for everyone. Or let their UBI Nest Egg fund it for them.

UBI is the foundation upon which the rest of the programs can sit.

 

[dank69]

Minimum wage is definitely not the end all be all for tackling wealth inequality but I don't think UBI is either. UBI raises happiness but it doesn't do much else (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). I really think a better tax policy is part of the answer, universal health care that's not tied to ones employer is another part. Education, housing and infrastructure also all play a part.

In the distant future UBI would probably be the answer but to get to that point automation would need to be closer to 100% along with an automated or AI based service/retail industry. At that point though, things such as the point of existence will have to be discussed and recalibrated.

Yeah there are a lot of issues that need to be tackled simultaneously. Others that haven't been mentioned yet are parental leave and the cost of childcare.

I was mostly commenting on the problem with just raising the minimum wage though.

 

[skull]

If you don't see all the luck it took to make it then you are not as smart as you think you are.


And some of those challenges can be literally impossible to overcome. You were lucky enough not to face any of them.



But you didn't so you were able to continue on. Some were not so lucky, and ended up losing their job because of a lengthy hospital stay, and then were physically weakened unable to put in the hours of work to make it afterward. This would be mostly about genetics, not hard work.

You managed to make it years without any major medical, mental, or financial emergency that make it literally impossible to continue. Things like a storm knocking a tree over and destroying that truck you saved up for, right in the middle of one of those lean times. Or any one of a million job site accidents that left you unable to work for a considerable amount of time.

You think 9,999,999 out of 10,000,000 face major medical issues or something that isn't in their control or something that can't be planned for? Get the fuck out of here, I know 2 people with similar situations to mine and they are doing better than me. I also know plenty of people that have failed too.

Just the other day I found out this chick I know that had a situation close to the original story in this post minus the ridiculous rent plus one kid. She started her own cleaning business was super stoked doing good. I seen her post on facebook look all my hard work has finally paid off, she was standing next to a brand new car. I'm thinking come on girl I know you ain't saved up that much cash yet its only been a year. Your hard work hasn't paid off yet, you just signed up to sign over your hard work to the bank. Well what do you know cars repoed now and she has to work at a fast food place within walking distance of her house. If thats your idea of financial emergency its self induced and can be solved with a little intelligence.

If you think I'm not prepared for my truck going down at any time you're mistaken. I'd just go buy another truck cash and wait on the insurance money. I keep 6 months minimum living expenses in the bank at all times right now I got 3 years but I'm about to invest most of it. In 10 years only had to dip into most my reserves and float a month on credit cards once. Thats the other thing I do is keep my credit perfect so I can tap some large credit lines if necessary but its only for serious emergencies. You did remind me I should get some short term disability insurance before I lock up most of my cash reserves.

In the very beginning before I had cash reserves it was the hard work. Kept 2 w2 jobs and worked for myself just kept pumping that money into more and more tools and a fixing up a better truck. Back then I kept multiple 20+ year old beaters around for when one broke and I could also scavenge parts from one etc. That was the cheap hillbilly way of avoiding being without a truck. Tools and personal stuff came from pawn shops and goodwill. Kept everything cheap. Friends would tell me I'm nuts your making a little money now you should do blah blah. Nope I'm building something here guys can't spend the money yet.

 

[skull]

You've literally done nothing but whine in this thread. I get that being stupid seems to be a common trait with the contradiction that is your minds (where you somehow are both incredibly self-absorbed yet lack almost complete actual self awareness), but sorry you don't get to cry and then claim its everyone else that is crying for disagreeing with you. They're not whining, they're explaining why you're wrong and then you just respond with more whining. So change your diaper you crybaby, or better yet stop your crying and try to actually learn something.

But don't expect people to put up with your whining or your pretending that your grade school level economics understanding resolves the biggest problem with the economic situation that has been happening. If only all us average people just balanced our budget, the rampant attempt to redistribute the wealth to the ones that need it the least, well that wouldn't even be a problem! And if we all just sat at home miserable, eating ramen, we'd be so filthy rich! Plus, I'm sure that would totally fix issues like when the fiscal policy of modern Republicans leads to major financial recessions and people lose their retirement plans because of some greedy investment banker. They should've save a few more pennies! Who cares if rich people game the tax system and commit fraud? Wouldn't matter if only common folk would pull themselves up by their jockstraps!

I do have to laugh how you're pretty much bragging about being a complete loner (and yet too stupid to notice how that alone impacts your economic situation, and its not because "women be shopping!" its because if you have family members that have medical conditions, or kids, that well, you're gonna be paying tens of thousands a year for that). I'm guessing your lone wolf lifestyle is likely not by choice (doubt you'll have to worry about women wanting to stick around you for very long; frankly I have a hunch that most of them would only willingly spend any time around you if you were deliberately paying them to do so).

I already did my learning. I used to be a loser that sat around woe is me, life is too tough, its all rigged every ones out to get you. Basically I thought like you. One day I realized crying about it isn't to get me out of my situation. So I took the first job a felon could get, cleaning toilets at the airport car rental places at night. Got a second chance, took that one and just kept working hard. I slowly began to realize no one was out to get me, the banks aren't rigged against me, that me being broke was all my own making.

Me and fkimspy(sp?) already had the economics out in another thread. We determined that people blow money and if you give them more they will find a way to spend it and still not meet their basic needs.

It is funny back when I was a broke loser hooked on heroin chicks were always all over me. Now that I have something in life not so much. You might be right might be my asshole personality. Although my last girl stuck around for 3 years and kept talking marriage, kids, I just couldn't do it. I vowed long ago never pay chicks for sex but chicks did pay me for sex back in the day.

 

[Greenman]

You don't understand..

People move where they can find jobs, not where they can find lower insurance costs. That's why small towns in America are dying.

And I like where I live.. This is how far is everything from me.. (home and work via subway)

Bus 0.5 blocks.
Bank 1.5 blocks.
Train 2 blocks.
Supermarket 3.5 blocks.
Central Park 4 blocks.
Doctor 6 blocks.
University 8 blocks.
Hospital 13 blocks.

Total mileage on car last year 353 miles.

Fuck the 40 mile round trip commutes.

And it's much easier to get a job here. Just the cost of living is insane. Hell people are sometimes paying $22k property taxes on a 3500 square feet but it's worth it to have this kind of life.

What kind of life are you talking about? What makes it so good? Is it that everything is close by?
For years I thought people lived in big city's because they had to, it never occurred to me that anyone would actually want to live there. When I met people that loved it, I assumed that they had never had a good life and didn't know any better. Obviously that attitude died a long time ago, but I still can't understand why anyone wants to live where it's crowded.

 

[ivwshane]

What kind of life are you talking about? What makes it so good? Is it that everything is close by?
For years I thought people lived in big city's because they had to, it never occurred to me that anyone would actually want to live there. When I met people that loved it, I assumed that they had never had a good life and didn't know any better. Obviously that attitude died a long time ago, but I still can't understand why anyone wants to live where it's crowded.

Some people aren't anti social.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Some people aren't anti social.

Those people would be perfect in a small town where everybody knows everybody, always everywhere they go they run into their friends that they know.

 

[alcoholbob]

Yeah there are a lot of issues that need to be tackled simultaneously. Others that haven't been mentioned yet are parental leave and the cost of childcare.

I was mostly commenting on the problem with just raising the minimum wage though.

Minimum wage was implemented in 1938 to supplement the (effective) maximum wage to push money velocity downstream to the working class. The top marginal tax rate back then was 79%. When the top rate is effectively 15% or 20% today given most rich people earn investment income, the minimum wage by itself isn't a useful way to drive money to the working poor. Any minimum wage increase is going to have to include an increase to the top marginal tax rate along with tax reform so the rich don't pay a lower rate than some dentist making 400k. Otherwise by itself it's simply going to drive small businesses out of business and help make big corporations bigger.