What is going on with the story on ivermectin?

[dank69]

As in, I’ve noticed a rise in overt racism within Republican politics because I’m a racist. Perhaps you react more to fear than curiosity. I think the more I have these kinds of discussions here and elsewhere the more apparent it is to me that people turn dogmatic when they feel threatened. This is for me fresh data to support the notion we create what we fear.

Additionally, I think the reason we are reacting differently to similar data is because I do not believe in blame. I see horrible childhoods where you react with contempt of the symptoms. This not black and white, but to differing degrees. All of the insights into human behavior that are of the most value to me is that we project our self hate. If you believe that, you know that blaming others implies. I am not free oh the impulse to blame but where I catch myself doing it I get a chance to stop feeding it.

You're trying to reason with a virus. I'm sorry I think you're wasting your time, but that doesn't mean I am not curious.

 

[Moonbeam]

You're trying to reason with a virus. I'm sorry I think you're wasting your time, but that doesn't mean I am not curious.

What do you mean by trying to reason with a virus? What is the virus?

By suggesting a difference of degree is not saying you aren’t curious. I made sure I was not seeing in black and white to make that clear.

 

[Greenman]

As in, I’ve noticed a rise in overt racism within Republican politics because I’m a racist. Perhaps you react more to fear than curiosity. I think the more I have these kinds of discussions here and elsewhere the more apparent it is to me that people turn dogmatic when they feel threatened. This is for me fresh data to support the notion we create what we fear.

Additionally, I think the reason we are reacting differently to similar data is because I do not believe in blame. I see horrible childhoods where you react with contempt of the symptoms. This not black and white, but to differing degrees. All of the insights into human behavior that are of the most value to me is that we project our self hate. If you believe that, you know that blaming others implies. I am not free oh the impulse to blame but where I catch myself doing it I get a chance to stop feeding it.

The problem is that ivermectin has become a political drug. Somehow it's connected to Trump so it can't be of any value. It also appears that it's seen as being a threat to the vaccine.
I don't get it. Do the study and answer the question. If it has some usefulness against covid that's great, if it doesn't then we move on, and the folks that are into healing crystals and aroma therapy can use it.

I'm way past caring about political views. I had the rona, was sick as a dog for a week, got vaccinated, went through 20 weeks of nonstop pain from that, then got the rona a second time and went down for another week. I'm at the point that I'd snort Draino if it was an effective treatment. I don't give a shit who endorses it, let's do the science part and let that be the guide.

 

[dank69]

What do you mean by trying to reason with a virus? What is the virus?

I am reminded of the advice I once got from an old supi master:

A) In every game and con there is always an opponent and there is always a victim.
1) If you want to get smarter, play a smarter opponent.
2) The more sophisticated the game, the more sophisticated the opponent.
B) The bigger the environment, the easier the control.
D) The opponent simply distracts their victim by getting them consumed with their own consumption.
J) The bigger the trick, the older the trick, the easier it is to pull.
?) You believe it can’t be that old, and it can’t be that big for so many people to have fallen for it.
alt + F4) Eventually when the opponent is challenged or questioned, it means the victim’s investment and thus, his intelligence is questioned. No one can accept that, not even to themselves.
XXX) You will always find a good opponent in the very last place you would ever look.

You know what’s so elegant about this little game Moonbeam? Nobody knows where the enemy is. They don't even know he exists. He is in every one of their heads, and they trust him because they think they are him. It’s beautiful man, you have to admire the opponent’s elegance.

 

[fskimospy]

The problem is that ivermectin has become a political drug. Somehow it's connected to Trump so it can't be of any value. It also appears that it's seen as being a threat to the vaccine.
I don't get it. Do the study and answer the question. If it has some usefulness against covid that's great, if it doesn't then we move on, and the folks that are into healing crystals and aroma therapy can use it.

I'm way past caring about political views. I had the rona, was sick as a dog for a week, got vaccinated, went through 20 weeks of nonstop pain from that, then got the rona a second time and went down for another week. I'm at the point that I'd snort Draino if it was an effective treatment. I don't give a shit who endorses it, let's do the science part and let that be the guide.

It's funny how you projected this entirely the opposite of reality. It HAS been studied, and the studies indicate it has no value against covid. Because it has become a political drug conservatives continue to insist this hasn't happened because accepting science means the liberals were right.

Nobody would be against using it if it had value! Nobody! It's just that conservatives have gone so insane that they would rather shove horse paste up their asses than admit the liberals were right yet again.

 

[dank69]

The problem is that ivermectin has become a political drug. Somehow it's connected to Trump so it can't be of any value. It also appears that it's seen as being a threat to the vaccine.
I don't get it. Do the study and answer the question. If it has some usefulness against covid that's great, if it doesn't then we move on, and the folks that are into healing crystals and aroma therapy can use it.

I'm way past caring about political views. I had the rona, was sick as a dog for a week, got vaccinated, went through 20 weeks of nonstop pain from that, then got the rona a second time and went down for another week. I'm at the point that I'd snort Draino if it was an effective treatment. I don't give a shit who endorses it, let's do the science part and let that be the guide.

20 weeks of non-stop pain from the vaccine?

 

[Greenman]

It's funny how you projected this entirely the opposite of reality. It HAS been studied, and the studies indicate it has no value against covid. Because it has become a political drug conservatives continue to insist this hasn't happened because accepting science means the liberals were right.

Nobody would be against using it if it had value! Nobody! It's just that conservatives have gone so insane that they would rather shove horse paste up their asses than admit the liberals were right yet again.

Just a few posts up a couple of fellows made the case that the study's done were flawed. Then we see that Duke university has decided to do a new study.
Who do I believe here? I have no horse in this race other wanting a treatment for the next time I get the rona. I don't give a shit who endorses it or if it is horse paste I have to shove up my ass. I have had the crap twice and suffered through it, I don't want to go through that again.

 

[Gardener]

The problem is that ivermectin has become a political drug. Somehow it's connected to Trump so it can't be of any value. It also appears that it's seen as being a threat to the vaccine.
I don't get it. Do the study and answer the question. If it has some usefulness against covid that's great, if it doesn't then we move on, and the folks that are into healing crystals and aroma therapy can use it.

I'm way past caring about political views. I had the rona, was sick as a dog for a week, got vaccinated, went through 20 weeks of nonstop pain from that, then got the rona a second time and went down for another week. I'm at the point that I'd snort Draino if it was an effective treatment. I don't give a shit who endorses it, let's do the science part and let that be the guide.

The only folks who don't know that the "science part" is long settled are the misled.

 

[Pohemi]

And who is to make that claim? That their results are predictable and repeatable?
The "other" side. Meaning the liars, the enemy, the traitorous scum who would see us all dead. /s

Knowledge is delivered via messenger. So attack the messenger.

That you think your singular truth is almighty and all known across the world, or maybe just the nation, is pretty !@#$ing bizarre given an entire political party is operating under the opposite belief. Do you deny the existence of the Republican Party?

Oh, but you have the "truth". Again, it is whatever the !@#$ we make of it. And plenty of people are not listening. Not to you, and not to whoever claims to have results. In partisanship of the human mind you will find only madness. But I simply repeat what you are so eloquently demonstrating for us. Your zealous crusade to proclaim your truth as everyone's truth. It would be adorable if it were not also so tragic. You actually think people would choose to believe you. Over whatever makes them feel better.

What is it like, to live in a delusional world, where humans are not inherently delusional?

You are an imbecile. You are talking complete nonsense in circles, trying to sound philosophical like Moonie or something. Scientific data can be ignored by morons. That doesn't make it not factual or truthful.

Again, this is not religion. It doesn't rely on "faith" and there are not "multiple versions of truth or facts". This is not Donnie's WH.

Stop being a fucking idiot.

20 weeks of non-stop pain from the vaccine?

Yeah, I laughed pretty hard at that claim.

 

[allisolm]

I don't get it. Do the study and answer the question. If it has some usefulness against covid that's great, if it doesn't then we move on, and the folks that are into healing crystals and aroma therapy can use it.

The people who make ivermectin and who, I'm sure would love to sell more of it, have said there is "no scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19. " There is "no meaningful evidence for clinical activity or clinical efficacy in patients with COVID-19 disease." They "do not believe that the data available support the safety and efficacy of ivermectin beyond the doses and populations indicated in the regulatory agency-approved prescribing information."

That's from the people who make it and yet you don't believe them.

 

[MtnMan]

Don't cherry pick sources ....

Applying what christians have practiced for a long time as they cherry-pick the bible.

 

[Jaskalas]

The scientific method does not require "faith". While scientists can be biased, the method is not. Science is not a religion, no matter how you try to muddy the definition.

Further poising with false conjecture.
I said no such thing.

But how do you KNOW things? You were told them. You did not perform the scientific experiments yourself. Very few people do. The rest are told. They must BELIEVE the messengers. Place faith in those people. In those who do adhere to the scientific method and perform the work. Its reach extends only as far as the people who believe in it. Those who place faith elsewhere would previously burn women at the stake. Their numbers are on the rebound. People replying to me can stop pretending otherwise.

 

[Pohemi]

Further poising with false conjecture.
I said no such thing.

But how do you KNOW things? You were told them. You did not perform the scientific experiments yourself. Very few people do. The rest are told. They must BELIEVE the messengers. Place faith in those people. In those who do adhere to the scientific method and perform the work. Its reach extends only as far as the people who believe in it. Those who place faith elsewhere would previously burn women at the stake. Their numbers are on the rebound. You can stop pretending otherwise.

You don't need to have faith in individual scientists. If it is valid science, it will be peer-reviewed by other scientists and found to be true, or not.
There isn't an invisible overlord scientist in the sky that nobody ever directly sees or communicates with, that we just have to "have faith" in the scientific data that it passes down to us mortals.

So why do you seemingly want to #bothsides these two groups, as if they are both based on trusting in the false claims of others?

I mostly understand your point (I think), but you are still speaking in nonsensical circles and trying to create some valid point where there is none. FUD.

You aren't being, "an objective outsider". You're just being a moron.

 

[Moonbeam]

My favorite ivermectin conspiracy theory is that it’s being tanked so that big pharma can sell their drugs and make money.

No one appeared to notice Ivermectin is produced by Merck, market cap ~$200 billion. Lol.

A counter to this which I still see no sense in is that Merck’ patents are expired and are threatened by low cost generics. But as a big player in the market with expired patents seems any runaway increase in sales would still make them winners. On top of that the only product they have for Covid specifically they might wish to drive demand to is having the same issues as ivermectin; It is not testing as very effective.

 

[dullard]

Further poising with false conjecture.
I said no such thing.

But how do you KNOW things? You were told them. You did not perform the scientific experiments yourself. Very few people do. The rest are told. They must BELIEVE the messengers. Place faith in those people. In those who do adhere to the scientific method and perform the work. Its reach extends only as far as the people who believe in it. Those who place faith elsewhere would previously burn women at the stake. Their numbers are on the rebound. People replying to me can stop pretending otherwise.

Ah, I see, you just believe what your politicians or entertainment "news" sources tell you.

I happen to do my best to avoid information sources like that since they have a vested interest to mislead (votes for politicians and ratings for entertainment "news"). I thoroughly investigate science information, the authors of that information, the quality of the information, and also look into conflicting information (rather than brush it aside). I combine all that into my body of knowledge.

From Dictionary.com, a belief is: "confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof."

 

[Moonbeam]

Ah, I see, you just believe what your politicians or entertainment "news" sources tell you.

I happen to do my best to avoid information sources like that since they have a vested interest to mislead (votes for politicians and ratings for entertainment "news"). I thoroughly investigate science information, the authors of that information, the quality of the information, and also look into conflicting information (rather than brush it aside). I combine all that into my body of knowledge.

From Dictionary.com, a belief is: "confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof."

Not a means by which to accept things that defy common sense?

 

[Ventanni]

Not a means by which to accept things that defy common sense?

So, this is kind of a response to several of the posts you've made, because you're touching on something rather important, but consider the current reality: Our society administers antibiotics for even the slightest viral cough and sniffle even though they have absolutely zero effect on the outcome. Now, I'm not defending using these drugs to treat Covid, but unfortunately these drugs have been used as political tools to smear Republicans, because that's just the ugly truth of the matter. Now Democrats and Republicans are playing a dirty football game with each other in an attempt to gain an edge using these two drugs as the ball, and it's not one we care to watch.

A counter to this which I still see no sense in is that Merck’ patents are expired and are threatened by low cost generics. But as a big player in the market with expired patents seems any runaway increase in sales would still make them winners. On top of that the only product they have for Covid specifically they might wish to drive demand to is having the same issues as ivermectin; It is not testing as very effective.

Not singling you out here, but it's an interesting sub-conversation started by the mod. You can't use logic when it comes to this stuff. There are dollar signs and only dollar signs. Merck can just as easily state that Ivermectin has zero clinical benefit to treating Covid, when it in fact does, then go behind the scenes, change or perfect the formula, apply for a new patent, and make boatloads more $$$. There are two seemingly opposite "truths" here, and both are potentially correct.

 

[Pohemi]

(paragraph 1...)

#bothsides nonsense

(paragraph 2...)

#whataboutism? I don't even know here...you are right about lack of logic, but it applies to your statement.

 

[Moonbeam]

So, this is kind of a response to several of the posts you've made, because you're touching on something rather important, but consider the current reality:

Part of the reason why I posted that old saw about faith and belief being used sustain what logically might sound absurd is because
I am, in my opinion, far far more aware than most people just how easily it can be applied to me. I believe that Truth with a capitol T falls exactly into that category, that it is in fact protected, shielded, and hidden by the simple fact of its immediate unlikelihood. For example, we’re it not for the fact that I had a teacher whose attitude and manner of expression in life struck me as far far different and more advanced than my own, I would never have been able to stick around long enough from the time I heard him express the idea that we hate ourselves, and I can assure you that might be the case for others but certainly not for me, to the time of years later when I actually begun to opened the door sufficiently to experience the hidden pain deeply repressed within me.

And as part of the weirdness worldview the varying psychological experiences I have had, there is this additional impression :

Whenever I hear people speak of reality I experience this autonomic reaction: Here we go again. I am about to hear someone’s opinion expressed as if they are convinced it is true. I used to live in that reality. Now I know the Truth or Reality can actually be something undreamt o


QUOTE="Ventanni, post: 40687471, member: 296363"]Our society administers antibiotics for even the slightest viral cough and sniffle even though they have absolutely zero effect on the outcome. Now, I'm not defending using these drugs to treat Covid, but unfortunately these drugs have been used as political tools to smear Republicans, because that's just the ugly truth of the matter. [/QUOTE]

This is another of those declarations you have accepted as true for reasons. I just am often unhappy with that. What I see is something more like this: Both the thought of and the experience of human suffering is painful and particularly of that nature because it threatened by its penetrating depth to pierce out normal psychological amnesiac state, reaching the intensity of childhood trauma and pulling us right back into it memory and experientially wise. It is thus to be avoided like the pain of death., a pain we have actually all felt.

A result, and one I think has application here, is that we are profoundly psychologically motivated to do anything we can to avoid these confrontations with our fundamental and unavoidable vulnerability and mortality. Not only do we carry a victim mentality around in our unconscious, but also this need to fix things and make them right, and when combined lead to an anxiety and desperation. We demand our doctors fix us and grow paranoid they are withholding the real unconditional love that was so absent for us as children.

This unpleasant fact of human nature is not, then, a fact, but a mental condition, one that a different way of seeing the world can fix.

QUOTE="Ventanni, post: 40687471, member: 296363"]Now Democrats and Republicans are playing a dirty football game with each other in an attempt to gain an edge using these two drugs as the ball, and it's not one we care to watch.[/QUOTE]

For the reasons above, from how I see things, what we are experiencing is those less anxious about thinking someone is actively working against them to keep them from some ego aim are more able to detect the irrationality of those who do. But when that denial itself becomes more threatening to many of those, a counter-reaction of hate and disgust starts setting in. Irrational people can become dangerous, creating more irrationality and a vortex that threatens to suck us all in.

QUOTE="Ventanni, post: 40687471, member: 296363"]Not singling you out here, but it's an interesting sub-conversation started by the mod. You can't use logic when it comes to this stuff. There are dollar signs and only dollar signs. Merck can just as easily state that Ivermectin has zero clinical benefit to treating Covid, when it in fact does, then go behind the scenes, change or perfect the formula, apply for a new patent, and make boatloads more $$$. There are two seemingly opposite "truths" here, and both are potentially correct.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, but since, if what you claim is correct, that people can justify any straw they grasp onto as some sort of life raft, why bother to cling?

 

[cytg111]

Further poising with false conjecture.
I said no such thing.

But how do you KNOW things? You were told them. You did not perform the scientific experiments yourself. Very few people do. The rest are told. They must BELIEVE the messengers. Place faith in those people. In those who do adhere to the scientific method and perform the work. Its reach extends only as far as the people who believe in it. Those who place faith elsewhere would previously burn women at the stake. Their numbers are on the rebound. People replying to me can stop pretending otherwise.

Yes, The Truman Show. Its the only plausible explanation.

 

[jman19]

20 weeks of non-stop pain from the vaccine?

Yeah interested to see what "non stop pain" occurred from the vaccine for 5 months.

 

[cytg111]

Yeah interested to see what "non stop pain" occurred from the vaccine for 5 months.

Greenman works in high voltage electrical fields… it stands to reason the magnetic properties of the vaccine were acting up.
Thankfully you can wash those out by drinking your own urine.

 

[dank69]

So, this is kind of a response to several of the posts you've made, because you're touching on something rather important, but consider the current reality: Our society administers antibiotics for even the slightest viral cough and sniffle even though they have absolutely zero effect on the outcome. Now, I'm not defending using these drugs to treat Covid, but unfortunately these drugs have been used as political tools to smear Republicans, because that's just the ugly truth of the matter. Now Democrats and Republicans are playing a dirty football game with each other in an attempt to gain an edge using these two drugs as the ball, and it's not one we care to watch.



Not singling you out here, but it's an interesting sub-conversation started by the mod. You can't use logic when it comes to this stuff. There are dollar signs and only dollar signs. Merck can just as easily state that Ivermectin has zero clinical benefit to treating Covid, when it in fact does, then go behind the scenes, change or perfect the formula, apply for a new patent, and make boatloads more $$$. There are two seemingly opposite "truths" here, and both are potentially correct.

2 yikes.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Yeah interested to see what "non stop pain" occurred from the vaccine for 5 months.

I'm guessing its the agony of a bruised ego.

 

[Greenman]

Yeah interested to see what "non stop pain" occurred from the vaccine for 5 months.

Left shoulder at the injection site. Three visits to as many different doctors provided no answers. My primary care physician referred to it as "covid shoulder", and other than prescribing Motrin and some exercises, had no solution. Motrin did provide relief, but I don't like taking it for long periods of time. I'm a working contractor, and 64 years old, something always hurts, so Motrin is my drug of choice. I have to be careful about how often I take it.

It was a fellow here on the AT forum that provided me with a solution that actually worked, for which he has my eternal gratitude. I think that thread is in H&F.

That said, if a variant comes along that's deadlier than what's floating around now I'll get the booster, but not until then. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I've had covid twice and been vaccinated. The second round was post vaccination and wasn't as unpleasant as the first time I had it. Though it still put me down for a week.